Should Eteri be called "The Madame" at this point?

judgejudy27 said:
I am sorry but why on earth are you blaming Julia's fall on Eteri. I love Julia, but reality is Julia grew, had injuries, never had the best jump technique to fall back on to begin with, and lost her jumps. And yes Evgenia replaced Julia as Eteri's #1, well gee what kind of coach would ever prioritize a kid who comes in and starts dominating the sport to someone who is a bit of a spent force who never was a dominant skater even at her peak. :rollseyes: I dont mean to be cruel, but lets be real here, any other coach would have done the same thing.
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Well, we could argue that a good coach does work on the jump technique with the skaters. Especially when they are young.
I find that Eteri doesn't do that, and I see that with Evgenya also.

@OP: I'm not a fan of Eteri, but to call her vile and loathsome is reaching, IMO.
I don't really know what went on between her and Yulia. As a coach and as an adult though I do hold her responsible for not handling her better. But a coach doesn't necessarily have to sugarcoat things, or be all smiles (fake in most cases) for the sake of the camera. I expect the coach to be dedicated, hard worker, knowledgeable and caring. The caring part is much harder, IMO, also because it's not just one person they have to deal with. There are many young girls who are gifted, talented, hard workers and ambitious. She has to think about all, so I think the family should be a strong support for them.
I blame Yulia's problem on her parent as well. I imagine it isn't easy to be a single mom, but she has her share of responsabilities as well.

Having said all that, I do question Eteri's methods. But I do not like to judge her harshly without having all the tools and informations.
Just because she isn't "sweet" and "gentle" doesn't make her a bad person. People are different, have different approach and there are cultural differencies to be taken into account too.

Personally I do hate when the media or fans try to see and sell the narrative of : oh look, they are friends off the ice. (I've seen some similar videos and titles in regards to Zag and Medv for example). I do not care about all that. If they are, good for them. But I do not need them to be friends off the ice in order to judge and enjoy them as skaters. I would like and hope skaters are cordial, at least, to each other. But if there is smth I really loath is the PC ad hypocrisy surrounding this sport. I also dont like when bashing and sour grapes is sold as "honesty" and being "up front" either.

As for overly sexualised costum and exhibition performance, let's calm down a bit. Lots of drama and exxageration going on here.
The age of consent vary across Europe, but the vast majority of countries set their ages in the range of 14 to 16. That means also that a 15 yrs old skater is able to pick and choose a costume that she likes, in my book. Gee, at age 10 I used to complain and criticise my mom for not having any make up, cause I liked it. :lol: Let's not make this a big deal.
Reading some of you, you would think Eteri should be charged for child pornography. :confused::rolleyes:

Cachoo said:
I do dread years of back loaded programs.
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Easy to fix that. Make it mandatory to distribute the jumps throughout the program.

giselle23 said:
I've seen Hollywood actresses use similar "exposure" to get attention on the red carpet. They know sex sells.
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And later scream #Metoo :shuffle: But that's another discussion.
 
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Everyone's talking about Lipinitskaya choosing to follow that diet and Zagitova doing that program is forgetting something. Eteri's the coach, she's the one with the power here.

If I was the coach, it would always be in the back of my mind that these are kids and that they are aware that I have the power to make or break them. So much money and honor is riding on their careers. The ability for them to say 'No' isn't very high and they could fear to do so.

You don't offer someone questionable choices, especially when that someone is a child and say 'Your choice!'
 
I guess all the people claiming the program is too sexy have never been to an american dance competition before and seen what they are wearing as costumes, choreography and music some of them much younger than what you are talking about here are using? This is very tame in comparison.
 
I am OK with Zag's exhibition even though I don't enjoy it but I don't think it's inappropriate. Zags has had puberty unlike Trusova who is still a child and skates to Big Spender. That's just gross.
 
Mozart said:
I guess all the people claiming the program is too sexy have never been to an american dance competition before and seen what they are wearing as costumes, choreography and music some of them much younger than what you are talking about here are using? This is very tame in comparison.
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Just because Americans do it to doesn't mean it's not gross. I was just as disgusted (if not moreso) by some US dance competition programs (and even a synchro program or two), but that doesn't excuse an overly sexy outfit and choreography for anyone else.

If anything - I think it proves a point. No matter what culture you're in, parents are willing to exploit/push their kids to do things not normally acceptable for kids/teens if it means winning, money, or prestige.
 
Willin said:
Just because Americans do it to doesn't mean it's not gross. I was just as disgusted (if not moreso) by some US dance competition programs (and even a synchro program or two), but that doesn't excuse an overly sexy outfit and choreography for anyone else.

If anything - I think it proves a point. No matter what culture you're in, parents are willing to exploit/push their kids to do things not normally acceptable for kids/teens if it means winning, money, or prestige.
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Americans are among the worst when it comes to stuff like this. I offer up child beauty pageants as Exhibit A. Does any other country even have these things?
 
jenniferlyon said:
Americans are among the worst when it comes to stuff like this. I offer up child beauty pageants as Exhibit A. Does any other country even have these things?
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Yeah Americans screaming at Eteri for exploiting children images...
Note that I am not a big fan of Eteri. I think that there should be a balance in the skating world, other styles should be rewarded as well. Even though Eteri and her team give her students some questionable programs, it's not like she is making them into child pornography products.
I do not like Trusova's music. But IMO maybe her team chose it while they did not know the lyrics? They're not the native speakers after all.
I dislike Alina's ex, but mostly because it's weird and has no meaning at all.
 
Willin said:
Just because Americans do it to doesn't mean it's not gross. I was just as disgusted (if not moreso) by some US dance competition programs (and even a synchro program or two), but that doesn't excuse an overly sexy outfit and choreography for anyone else.

If anything - I think it proves a point. No matter what culture you're in, parents are willing to exploit/push their kids to do things not normally acceptable for kids/teens if it means winning, money, or prestige.
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What synchro program did you find disgusting? I’m just curious.
 
Just because we might disagree with some of Eteri's decisions does not make her a "madame." The good thing is there are other coaches if she is not a good fit for a skater. This would be an interesting topic to revisit in about four years when more time has passed and more information is out there. Chances are she is simply a tough taskmaster who is intent on building champions. That would hardly make her the first or the last. I would rather my daughter have warmer relationships with her coaches but who is to say that Eteri totally lacks warmth? We don't know that.
 
@jenniferlyon I've heard that some places in Europe banned them?

purple skates said:
What synchro program did you find disgusting? I’m just curious.
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Some of my local ISI team's routines including booty shorts/crop tops, shimmies, and pantsless Moulin Rouge programs on 8-10-year-olds. I was a bit weirded out by the choreography of Teams Elite Juvenile's Beyonce program from a couple years back, but the skating was so good that I forgot they were all <14.
 
I very much doubt the coach had much, if anything, to do with that outfit. This manner of dress is the very thing 15 and 16 year olds love to do. They tend to be somewhat of exhibitionists at that age. Mothers are forever saying to their daughters - "you leave nothing to the imagination." It is a very common phenomenon. I would say the coach likely indulged it rather than created the outfit and the dance. I look back at my own life and view pictures of myself at that age through the early twenties and my overriding thought was "OMG, I can't believe I dressed like that; what was I thinking." At that age you like to "strut your stuff" and often your mother intervenes - in exasperation - saying "you are not going to go out like that" whereupon you would pout and carry on until your mother gives in and lets you go out dressed as you want. Sometimes you had to make concessions in the outfit.

It is very common for young women to want to go out dressed inappropriately and the adults in your life are not the impetus behind it. It is virtually always your idea and at best they indulge you in such a manner of dress. I am reasonably sure Zagitova came up with that outfit on her own and designed the skating routine. When I was her age, I had a job at the Shoprite and, as did the other cashiers, we dressed very inappropriately (all of us) - coming to work in skin tight clothing; seductive clothing styles, etc. In short, we were dressed inappropriately for the job and, dressed like, that we would ring up the customers groceries on the register. Of course, we flirted with the stock boys and the boys bagging the customers items into paper bags. The manager ordered smocks for all the young girls and insisted that we wear them while at work - over our inappropriate outfits. Of course we fought the idea and as soon as he would turn his back, we took off the smocks .....until he came back and insisted that we put them on again. I am quite sure this whole scene was Zagitova's idea and had nothing to do with the coach.
 
Willin said:
@jenniferlyon I've heard that some places in Europe banned them?


Some of my local ISI team's routines including booty shorts/crop tops, shimmies, and pantsless Moulin Rouge programs on 8-10-year-olds. I was a bit weirded out by the choreography of Teams Elite Juvenile's Beyonce program from a couple years back, but the skating was so good that I forgot they were all <14.
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Thanks for the reply. I can’t comment on ISI teams because I haven’t seen any. I can comment on some USFS teams because I have seen them over the past three years, and I haven’t seen anything objectionable. Of course, YMMV.

I think I found the Teams Elite Beyonce program. Besides some bad music (sorry, not a Beyonce fan), I’m hard pressed to find anything objectionable.

https://youtu.be/U6IEQTsPpjs
 
brennele said:
I very much doubt the coach had much, if anything, to do with that outfit. This manner of dress is the very thing 15 and 16 year olds love to do. They tend to be somewhat of exhibitionists at that age. Mothers are forever saying to their daughters - "you leave nothing to the imagination." It is a very common phenomenon. I would say the coach likely indulged it rather than created the outfit and the dance. I look back at my own life and view pictures of myself at that age through the early twenties and my overriding thought was "OMG, I can't believe I dressed like that; what was I thinking." At that age you like to "strut your stuff" and often your mother intervenes - in exasperation - saying "you are not going to go out like that" whereupon you would pout and carry on until your mother gives in and lets you go out dressed as you want. Sometimes you had to make concessions in the outfit.
.
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Your message is quite true for a normal teenager, but I doubt Eteri would let a skater do something she thought would be inappropriate. She is not the kind on woman to argue or make deals with.
 
allezfred said:
“She was asking for it.....”
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Asking for what? She wasn't assaulted. Just because women who dress provocatively are not asking to be assaulted doesn't mean they aren't asking to be looked at. Adult women can make that choice but there is something icky about a young teenager making it--or having the decision made for them.
hanca said:
There are people who find any skating dress sexual. For example, men from countries where females are covered from head to toe would think that any tighter fitting dress is sexual. Would that be a reason why you would not allow your daughter do figure skating? Otherwise you would allow her to appear overly sexual...
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Most skating dresses/costumes don't have illusion cloth appearing to expose half of the skater's butt. Adults may not be able to stop some sick people from looking at their children in a sexual way, but why would they encourage it?
 
Chiquita, Does she have any children of her own? Perhaps if she has raised a few, she might be inured to it. I don't know. I did think the costume was more than a bit over the top but I also know how headstrong teenagers can be. Perhaps the coach is choosing her battles or else she is a pragmatist. Afterall, Zagatovi just won the gold so, at this point, tasteless dressing is not going to harm her in any way. The important stuff is out of the way and it is possible that the coach is simply humoring her, at present. Now that Zag has won the OG, how she dresses in public is more under the purview of the mother, anyway. Perhaps, she would not humor her own children quite that much but Zag is not her child and the coach's job is to get her to the podium - which she did in royal fashion. One has to choose his battles. If Zag is sufficiently headstrong - as I suspect she is - it simply may not be worth fighting with her over something which is going to have absolutely no impact on her career. I know one of the two of the girls - and I don't know which one - almost was not taken on by the coach (or else she was at risk of getting released) because "she did not work hard enough" to suit the coach. That is probably the sort of thing the coach fights with her over and this kind of stuff is small potatoes by comparison. If the coach has any children of her own, she will know how 15 year olds act. When I look at pics of myself in my youth, I just shake my head and wonder. I don't know how I wasn't date raped but somehow that was not a problem back then. For whatever reason, things have gotten much worse these days. When we told guys to stop, they just did; they did not force the issue like they do today.
 
@Meoima Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because some coaches/parents have kids and teens do an inappropriate routine doesn't mean I let any of my skaters do an inappropriate routine.

@brennele While I agree that some teens would willingly wear that, I don't think that's even the point. The point is that a coach has veto power. The second Eteri saw that - her idea or not - she should have vetoed it and said "wait a couple years." I see that conversation at the rink constantly, and the two coaches that don't veto stuff like that are heavily ridiculed by the other coaches for their inappropriate taste. Luckily those two are ISI-only coaches, because all the local USFSA judges I've overheard observing fresstyle sessions agree that the music choice is far too inappropriate and would incur low scores because of it.

purple skates said:
Thanks for the reply. I can’t comment on ISI teams because I haven’t seen any. I can comment on some USFS teams because I have seen them over the past three years, and I haven’t seen anything objectionable. Of course, YMMV.

I think I found the Teams Elite Beyonce program. Besides some bad music (sorry, not a Beyonce fan), I’m hard pressed to find anything objectionable.

https://youtu.be/U6IEQTsPpjs
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I personally didn't find too much of the choreography questionable - it's more about lyrical content for me, as are most of my issues with inappropriate skating programs. On the other hand, I was sitting with parents from my local skating team, and all of them seemed rather offended by the program. It should be noted that their daughters were all in the Juvenile Team age range.
 
Willin, Well I would tend to agree that either the coach or the mother should have put her foot down. The whole thing was absolutely a bit over the top and that is why kids have parents. Now having said that Zag just won the OG at age 15, no less so perhaps they were indulging her - although I believe she had the costume and performed the routine before in other competitions. i went to youtube to see what all the fuss was about and I found her gala performance as well as others so apparently she has worn this outfit and done this routine before. Probably Zag wants to appear "grown up" and the teen hormones are running wild at this point in their development. In comparison to winning OG, the whole thing is sort of a minor issue. It is too unfathomable for me to believe that either the coach or the mother would have come up with that costume or that routine. it is just not the sort of thing a sane adult comes up with and the child is way too young to be gunning for a Penthouse centerfold - from which these models who agree to pose make tons of money. She won't be eligible for anything remotely like that for another three years - so that can't be the angle. I just don't know. Perhaps they are both - Mom and coach - simply tired of fighting with her and given she just won the OG they are going to let her slide. The coach has no motive to sexualize Zag because the coach can't capitalize on it for at least 3 years. There is no money to be made now in doing so and it would be, moreover, illegal. The only angle which makes any kind of sense is that the kid wants to do it and they are not strongly opposing her.

People also can have very bizarre sense of fashion and taste. In the events leading up to the Olympics, Caroline Kostner showed up in a florescent chartreuse body suit - with similar nude areas - which was just mind-blowingly awful. The costume was so bad that you could barely look at the woman skate. One of the commentators remarked that the costume was so "distracting" that she could not even focus on Kostner's performance. I mean it really was THAT bad. Said commentator stated that she hoped Kostner would not wear that costume for the Olympics. I cannot fathom any sane person putting on an outfit like that yet we are talking about a woman in her 30s doing so. It was the sort of outfit one might wear if he or she were auditioning for a spot in a training program which teaches people to become clowns - clown college, as it were. The other place where someone might wear the outfit is if they were participating in a contest where the objective was to wear the most outlandish outfit you can possibly come up with - say for a Halloween party. But all of this not withstanding, Kostner wore the outfit in public and then at a skating event wherein she was performing. She must have thought it attractive. The only positive thing I could say about Zag's outfit is that it was not as bad as the one Kostner wore while actually competing. In some parts of the world people eat insects like grasshoppers and relish them. Forced to do one or the other, I suppose having to wear Kostner's outfit would be better than eating grasshoppers....but not by much.
 
PS - as long as we are talking about over the top routines with sexual overtones, I can't say I was especially impressed with Tessa Virtue's LP wherein she jumps onto her partners shoulder while pushing her crotch into his face and holding his head. There was much ado made over it in the press and supposedly Tessa and Scott decided to take it out of their program. Apparently, they put it back in. Supposedly, they considered the move to be "edgey" i.e. on the edge but it did not come across that way to me. It is not that I was offended by it, per say, but I thought it was sort of a crass and tasteless maneuver - rather like telling an off-color joke in an inappropriate context - like say during a job interview or when delivering a funeral eulogy. There is a time and place to engage in sex and also a time and place to ice skate in a public venue viewed by millions. I am not convinced that the two activities necessarily need to occur at the same time and in the same place
 
Willin said:
In Russia abusive training methods seem to be accepted as necessary to win; if the USA Gymnastics backlash about training methods at the Karolyi Ranch is any indication, abusive training is disliked but not entirely absent in the US.
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Without reading through this whole thread, I'll note a comment made about Karolyi in the book "Little Girls In Pretty Boxes". The author wrote that he starved his gymnasts and ridiculed them when he caught them in the act of 'eating' which he considered a weakness - the example given in of the book was of the girls eating peaches.

It was reported that food was smuggled into to his gymnasts at the dorm during an Olympics.

One of his gymnasts died of an eating order, tragically, but this may not be directly attributable to Karolyi because she had not been active in the sport for many years when she died. It was just so sad - I remember reading that the girl knew she was starving to death, but her belief that food was bad was so deeply internalized that she just couldn't think of a single thing that she wanted to eat.

Also, Karolyi was know to work his gymnasts hard. I saw a documentary on him once and he said something to the effect of keep them in the gym, because if you let them out and give them a taste of freedom, they won't come back.

Anyway, the point of saying all is that is that even though the mothers of gymnasts knew that Karolyi was rumored to start, demean, and overwork his athletes, they flocked to him anyway - because he produces champions. So said the author of the book, in any case.
 
When Zag's exhibition number was shown on Canadian TV, the commentators said she was a portraying a Goddess - I don't recall which Goddess, exactly, maybe the Goddess of Fire?

In any case, the program had nothing to do with a cat, although I too saw the routine as feline, especially given that her costume brought to mind a tiger.

As to a 13 year old skating to Big Spender, it seems terribly wrong to me.

But that said, I find young female skaters (and older ones sometimes too, for that matter) to be overly sexualized in general - which is reflective of the objectification of women in society at large.

And I sometimes find the make-up the young ladies wear to be overly excessive. Sometimes the mascara is practically dripping of their eyelids. They are so young and pretty and healthy - no need for so much make-up.
 
I am sorry but this thread is ridiculous. What do we have here? Some serious pearl clutching over what a teenage girl is allowed to wear. What is and isn’t sexual depends on the norms of the society we are living in. I can’t see anything whatsoever sexual in Zagitova’s costume, but for some people, it is too sexual. Whatever. :rolleyes:
Tutberidze is being accused of being a child abuser. Without any evidence, just based on the argument that she workds her girls very hard and that Lipnitskaya got anorexia. I don’t like Tutberidze, I don’t like what she did to Shelepen, Lipnitskaya, Voronov and Pitkeev, but calling her a child abuser is just ridiculous. Her behaviour has been at times unprofessional, but a child abuser? A part of me wishes that her lawyer contacts the board owner and threatens to sue, and the owner would disclose the identity of posters who are calling her abuser. People are posting under made up names and think that they can make any allegations, but there must be a line where it crosses to slander.
 
I think no coach is perfect. I think injuries happen. I also think Eteri maybe was not prepared for the success and older skaters dealing with new skaters how to handle the jealousy.

However the idea that she just throws people away is unfair. She has every right to say kid doesn't work hard enough she will move on given how many students want to work with her. But Alina says she told her k let's try again. And why should kid continue to make all those sacrifices if coach feels they don't want it aren't working hard enough or don't have the ability?


Do you think it is right for coaches to encourage parents to spend thousands and thousands of dollars if child has no future. Second Mortgaging homes etc is that more moral? Really? Financially and educationally. Kids are sacrificing a lot of their childhoods to train at that level. At least you know with Eteri that she will only encourage those sacrifices if your kid has a future and you know what there IS a level of integrity with that.

I think her students jump tech is getting better she has mentioned caring about the tech surviving puberty. Med is 18.

However the she is not warm doesn't care throws away older students for young ones. We don't see how she is every day. I don't think anyone can look at how Eteri was with Med and think that is clearly the case. How comforting she was to Med and how clearly emotional. That doesn't strike me as a coach who just doesn't care at all.

She may very well be a strict coach. And yes u have competition in the rink but it does make her students better competitors skaters.

Please note coaches have personally conflicts. Mishin for all of the critics seems to have warm relations with a lot of his students but he and Yagudin had their issues. The fact that the American Ice dancers loved her needs to be taken into account as much as some of the other students.
 
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brennele said:
Chiquita, Does she have any children of her own? Perhaps if she has raised a few, she might be inured to it. I don't know. I did think the costume was more than a bit over the top but I also know how headstrong teenagers can be. Perhaps the coach is choosing her battles or else she is a pragmatist. Afterall, Zagatovi just won the gold so, at this point, tasteless dressing is not going to harm her in any way. The important stuff is out of the way and it is possible that the coach is simply humoring her, at present. Now that Zag has won the OG, how she dresses in public is more under the purview of the mother, anyway. Perhaps, she would not humor her own children quite that much but Zag is not her child and the coach's job is to get her to the podium - which she did in royal fashion. One has to choose his battles. If Zag is sufficiently headstrong - as I suspect she is - it simply may not be worth fighting with her over something which is going to have absolutely no impact on her career. I know one of the two of the girls - and I don't know which one - almost was not taken on by the coach (or else she was at risk of getting released) because "she did not work hard enough" to suit the coach. That is probably the sort of thing the coach fights with her over and this kind of stuff is small potatoes by comparison. If the coach has any children of her own, she will know how 15 year olds act. When I look at pics of myself in my youth, I just shake my head and wonder. I don't know how I wasn't date raped but somehow that was not a problem back then. For whatever reason, things have gotten much worse these days. When we told guys to stop, they just did; they did not force the issue like they do today.
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Phhhhh... Brennele, there we go again. You make speculation based on the casual/average teenage girls in the Western society. Have you seen any of the reportages online showing Eteri on duty? there is no gray zone with her. If Zagitova wears the suit, it is because it doesn't bother the coach. If it had, she would not have had this on her. I have been in the skating business for long enough to know that successful coaches are not the one you can bargain much with.

The skating world's teenagers are not your usual teenagers, even more so the top ones. they go thtat far because they are complaint to their coach's willings. That's how it works.
 
Chiquita, perhaps it does not bother the coach - esp given that Zag just won OG - but it might not have been her idea or preference in the first place. People are accusing the coach of sexualizing the young skaters but what would be her motive? Child porn is illegal and carries stiff penalties so she can't be setting her up to pose for Penthouse center folds or any such venue - profitable though they be. It is hard to believe that any adult woman thinks the costume or the routine was attractive but I suppose it is within the realm of possibilities that the coach, as well as Zag, liked the costume. Look at the outfit Kostner wore in some competition leading to the Olympics. It was so awful that one could barely look at her skate yet obviously Koster, a presumably sane person, thought the outfit was attractive. Maybe the coach does like the outfit. It is possible. It is just as possible that this woman has some insight into the teenage psyche and she is indulging Zag because the girl just won OG. Maybe the message is that when you do everything the coach tells you and you win big time, as a result, she will then cut you some slack. Who knows? The outfit was pretty awful but overall it will likely have no impact on either of their lives. Zag just won OG and will reap any benefits which come with that feat. Similarly, the coach now has even more credibility than ever. Perhaps the two of them simply have super bad taste in fashion. I think it is highly unlikely that the coach has a side business in child porn. Can't do much coaching in jail unless the Russian laws are different
 
I just re-watched the Candyman routine and I don't see anything which resembles a couple simulating having sex in public? I love Virtue and Moir's skating but I thought the particular maneuver wherein she has her crotch in his face was just a bit vulgar for the venue. I don't know as it added anything to their program and, it my view, it detracted consideraby from their credibility. In the States the kids have this thing called "Freak dancing" where they simulate having sex with one another on the dance floor. I don't know whether they do this type of dancing in other countries. Probably do. It is all fine and harmless enough- if that is what they want to do - but I would not recommend anyone perform this sort of dance as part of an ice dancing competition. There is a time and place for everything.
 
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