Simonenko's interview with Tutberidze `Projecting the upbringing on the sport results discipline'

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,282
Because a lot of us are responding to the actual subject of the thread and a very specific system that Tutberidze describes as the formula for success.

I'm sure that Uno could learn the life task skill of knowing what size he is in the time it would take him to look at the label in his clothing.
That has been what I've been trying to say all along in response to starry poster. Also that kids who don't know things like that are not unique to Tutberidze. Other qualities of her training are lets say, different (I don't know anyone else who drags their students across the ice,) but being dependent on the entourage for the mundane things is common.
 

Vagabond

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,140

:eek:

There is nothing funny about that video. I find it deeply disturbing. Was she ever disciplined for that incident? If not, I find that even more disturbing.

And I can only imagine what kind of uproar there would be if a similar incident were caught on video involving a male coach of that age and a female skater.
 

rosewood

MTT Meter= 165, has drawn 320K so far
Messages
6,159
AS: And yet, what is it more - the physiology or mentality?
ET: Mentality. They are raised not to ask questions. Not even in their mind. Our athletes start rethinking what the coach told them to do and whether they should or should not do that. Especially when it's about repeating the same move. `Well, I already did it now, so the coach didn't like it?'. They are in conflict with themselves and it bothers the work. The people in the East don't have it. They were told to do a move, no matter whether do or re-do, they just go and do it.
:rolleyes:
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,306
Made it to the end! Whew!

I find it ironic that she does not like it when parents come to her & complain about other coaches as it means they will complain about her. (I completely agree with her viewpoint here). But she doesn't seem to care if her current athletes might feel the same way about hearing her publicly complain about the behaviors of athletes who have left her camp?

I don't think much of her "insight" into other cultures, but then you don't read an interview with a coach for insight into another camp or culture.

I don't really see much that makes her out as extraordinarily strict. She has discipline. She expects the athletes to work. She has been accused of yelling at them to get themselves in gear. Not my favorite coaching style if it is true, but an accusation that is probably inevitable for anyone who works longterm with youth.

I think when you are A. relatively young and B. a woman, you have to be clear about your discipline. If you don't, parents assume they can run the show. Or people assume you don't have the discipline. Or teens assume they can walk all over you. Hats off to anyone who works successfully with a lot of teenagers. Yes, some people are able to communicate all day long in a soft voice and be absolutely loved & respected by young adults, but many of us are not so designed and that does not mean that the quality of learning is less or that it might not even be superior.

If it wasn't for the public negativity about so many of her former athletes, I don't think I would find the interview disturbing. If an athlete or a parent makes their own public comments about a coach, then I think a coach has every right to share his/her own perspective. But it does seem like her negative complaints about athletes are excessive. Even when taking into account that she is from the Russian culture where many of the interviews come off sounding to those of us from outside that culture as blunt.
 

bardtoob

Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor
Messages
13,888
AS: The material, from which you would create a champion product in the men skating - have it crossed your path yet?
ET: Well, take Adian Pitkeev. A very talented boy. The judges loved him, the audience did. He has some Kalmyk routes. Among the guys from our group he was the closest the the material which could become a product.

AS: Why didn't he?
ET: The puberty came and he started asking too many questions... we had several guys on the same level at the same time but why did the coaches have to prove him he was the most loved all the time. He was literally in tears when he thought he was not wanted. Of course, he was wanted and needed, how would he not? But that's not what he thought and he spent a whole practicing period in that state, which resulted with the way it ended. Sometimes he would stop the practice - run away and throw his skaters into the rubbish bin... Of course he didn't want to retire. He wanted someone to pick those skates from the rubbish bin, clean them, bring them back to the dressing room, called him and said `Adian, come back!'.
More than that, now it seems the guys from a different generation do the same. They want us to express our love that way. I just don't get it.

AS: That's what you said in the press conf recently - being pitiful is not your thing.
ET: Pity doesn't help while working. Seriously. What will it help? Give a result?

Ummm . . . :rofl: . . . Sorry. It just reminded me of when Adian made whiny comments at a press conference that amounted to "Why aren't my PCS as high as his?", referring to Javi . . . I think my exact comments to that situation were "Adian, don't you know you are too young for brooding to be attractive."
 
Last edited:

bardtoob

Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor
Messages
13,888
:cold: I was going to say some thing about Yulia and Zheya . . . but instead, in general, WTF? How can there be so much drama in one interview? There eating each other alive . . . A boy and his father . . . A man and his mother . . . A coach thinks someone needs love from his girlfriend . . . The female skaters in constant competition within the group.

I think they should had been stricter with Adian. It's a hard age when the guy is searching for himself. Perhaps not receiving the love from his gf he was looking for the love from us, I can't really tell what was the reason for his behaviour.

Those practices when Adian and Sergey were fighting for the coach's attention. If one left the ice today, tomorrow it would be another. So they took turns leaving the ice cursing all of us. They were competing in something silly between themsevels instead of getting ready for the competition. There were different stories... For example we found the music for Adian and then suddenly Sergey would say he wanted to skate to that music his whole life. And be really pissed off because the programme was done for Adian. It was so childish: does he love me - does he not...

ET: Zhenay spent her whole life in a competition. Starting with Polina Shelepen, who was much better than her. Then Yulia Lipnitskay, then face to face with Serafima Sakhanovich. Zhenya always fought for the attention on the ice. Hence the competition is her usual state. Of course it adds some nervousness in the practices. But.. ok.
 
Last edited:

Mad for Skating

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,882
While I respect that she wants good results, how she treats her skaters is just unthinkable. I have never met a coach who compares to this level of force. I hope someone considers removing her from the coaching world, this is simply not healthy for her skaters.
 

chapis

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,871
While I respect that she wants good results, how she treats her skaters is just unthinkable. I have never met a coach who compares to this level of force. I hope someone considers removing her from the coaching world, this is simply not healthy for her skaters.

No way she should be removed from the coaching world if Morozov is permitted to coach.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
Messages
10,757
From fskate.ru, she has 12: Kvitelashvili (b. 1995, Georgia), Tarasenko (b. 1997), Andryunin (b. 2000), Efremenko (b. 1996), Erokhov (b. 1999), Egorov (b. 2001), Skirda (b. 2002), Gerasimov (b. 2001), Zenko (b. 2000, Belarus), Samsonov (b. 2005), Frolov (b. 2003), Rukhin (b. 2004). It's probably not 100% accurate (for example, Trusova and 2 other girls aren't listed in Tutberidze's group on that website), but overall I don't think the number of boys is the problem.
It hasn't been updated for a while. For example, Tarasenko is in St Petersburg doing pairs now, and in her interview quite while ago she said that Gerasimov was also switching to either pairs or ice dance, which means that he probably doesn't skate with her anymore either. But she has quite a few boys/men anyway.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
Messages
10,757
While I respect that she wants good results, how she treats her skaters is just unthinkable. I have never met a coach who compares to this level of force. I hope someone considers removing her from the coaching world, this is simply not healthy for her skaters.
Pavlova is happily coaching even after Antipova went on Russian TV with the abuse she suffered from her, so I can't see why the federation would want to remove their currently most successful coach Tutberidze. No other Russian coach has been as successful this past season as Tutberidze is. She coaches ladies world champion, ladies junior champion, Russian novice champion...
 

zebraswan

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,171
:eek:

There is nothing funny about that video. I find it deeply disturbing. Was she ever disciplined for that incident? If not, I find that even more disturbing.

Oh, please. Disciplined for that? She barely touched him. If it looked like she had hurt him, of course I wouldn't find it funny or OK.

And lest anyone think that only Russian coaches do things like that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/sports/olympics/16lysacek.html

To refocus him, Carroll told Lysacek to remember all the hard work he had put in. Then he slapped Lysacek, leaving a mark on his face as he took the ice. Lysacek said he did not mind it.

I don't really see much that makes her out as extraordinarily strict. She has discipline. She expects the athletes to work. She has been accused of yelling at them to get themselves in gear. Not my favorite coaching style if it is true, but an accusation that is probably inevitable for anyone who works longterm with youth.

You don't think forcing a seriously injured teenager to skate (injuring him even further to the point where he may never come back) is extraordinarily strict? And not apologizing for the damage she did to his body, mind, and soul? I wonder where you would draw the line, then. It's obviously different for everyone, but that is beyond the pale in my book.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
Messages
10,757
You don't think forcing a seriously injured teenager to skate (injuring him even further to the point where he may never come back) is extraordinarily strict? And not apologizing for the damage she did to his body, mind, and soul? I wonder where you would draw the line, then. It's obviously different for everyone, but that is beyond the pale in my book.
I don't think she forced him to skate. She very likely gave him the choice whether he wants to skate or not, but if he chooses to skate, he must act as if he was not injured. He can't have it both ways. He can't skate with a sign saying 'I am skating but make allowances for me because I am injured'. If someone skates, the judges don't care whether he is injured, or whether he had bad training conditions, or whether a week before the competition he had the flu and is still quite weak. The skater is judged on what they do on the ice at that particular time, so I am not surprised she was not happy about him drawing attention to himself. It is a tough sport. It is a question whether she should allow him competeif he was injured, but then Hanuy's coach allowed him to compete after that huge crash in the warm up, so I don't think Tutberidze's decision was that unusual for elite sport. Tarasova did not show any discomfort at worlds while skating with ten stitches she got at that morning because Morozov's blade cut her leg. If she did try to attract the attention to it, they would not be worlds bronze medallists now.
 

zebraswan

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,171
The point is that Adian was already skating with a back injury for the entire season and she acts as if it was just a behavioral issue. He came to the competition in the state which caused that skate. He was kind of provocative during the practicing process.

Not one word about the physical issue, and then she yelled at him after he got off the ice in visible pain. No sympathy whatsoever. And a total refusal to take responsibility for the fact that she might have contributed to this problem that now has his entire career in jeopardy. It's not comparable to Tarasova skating with a cut on her leg, but since you brought it up, Nina Mozer in almost every interview expresses her concern about the health of her skaters. She has empathy, which costs nothing, regardless of how strict you want to be as a coach. But Eteri ignores the elephant in the room and doesn't seem to care about her skaters' health at all. Only who gave her flowers when they left. :rolleyes: Let's not forget that Adian wasn't the only one who left with such issues...sure, these things can happen to anyone with any coach, but Yulia and Polina S. (and maybe Polina T., we'll see) and Adian isn't a very good track record, considering they were all still at the very beginning of their senior careers.
 

Vagabond

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,140
Oh, please. Disciplined for that? She barely touched him. If it looked like she had hurt him, of course I wouldn't find it funny or OK.

So, the degree of physical harm is all that matters? Not the inappropriateness of the behavior itself?

And would you say the same thing if the skater had been Mao Asada or Sasha Cohen?

And lest anyone think that only Russian coaches do things like that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/sports/olympics/16lysacek.html

To refocus him, Carroll told Lysacek to remember all the hard work he had put in. Then he slapped Lysacek, leaving a mark on his face as he took the ice. Lysacek said he did not mind it.

None of which justifies what either Tarasova or Carroll did.

And would you say the thing if the skater in question were Michelle Kwan or Gracie Gold?
 

altai_rose

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,220
The point is that Adian was already skating with a back injury for the entire season and she acts as if it was just a behavioral issue. He came to the competition in the state which caused that skate. He was kind of provocative during the practicing process.

Not one word about the physical issue, and then she yelled at him after he got off the ice in visible pain. No sympathy whatsoever. And a total refusal to take responsibility for the fact that she might have contributed to this problem that now has his entire career in jeopardy. It's not comparable to Tarasova skating with a cut on her leg, but since you brought it up, Nina Mozer in almost every interview expresses her concern about the health of her skaters. She has empathy, which costs nothing, regardless of how strict you want to be as a coach. But Eteri ignores the elephant in the room and doesn't seem to care about her skaters' health at all. Only who gave her flowers when they left. :rolleyes: Let's not forget that Adian wasn't the only one who left with such issues...sure, these things can happen to anyone with any coach, but Yulia and Polina S. (and maybe Polina T., we'll see) and Adian isn't a very good track record, considering they were all still at the very beginning of their senior careers.
About a year before Ekaterinburg Adian had the Europeans which he didn't want to participate. He would shout at the practice `Withdrow me, I don't want to be a tourist there'. What do you mean `withdrow'? Why a `tourist'? Before the Europeans was a great Nationals. Why was he behaving that way? We were trying to talk him through, being kind, talking more and then almost made him go to that competition. But before the competition what went on - it was not a working process, it was a mess. In the end in those Europeans Adian as if showed with the way he looked and skated: you shouldn't have brought me here! I told you I was not ready to compete!
I don't fully disagree with you, but it does sound like partly a teenage, behavioral issue. That Eteri tried to deal with by "being kind." And, to my recollection, Pitkeev was not injured at that Europeans (?).

It's not all black and white. I think it's too much to say that Tutberidze doesn't care about her skaters' health at all or that she only cares about results. For example, take Tsurskaya. Doctors apparently gave Tsurskaya their medical 'ok' for doing jumps, yet Tutberidze doesn't want her to jump right now to prevent risk of further injury and because it's the end of the season. And she clearly hasn't dumped Tsurskaya after the first hint of bad results this season. Supports her, thinks she's a huge talent, etc.
 
Last edited:

zebraswan

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,171
So, the degree of physical harm is all that matters? Not the inappropriateness of the behavior itself?

And would you say the same thing if the skater had been Mao Asada or Sasha Cohen?



None of which justifies what either Tarasova or Carroll did.

And would you say the thing if the skater in question were Michelle Kwan or Gracie Gold?

The degree matters to me when she clearly barely touched him (he doesn't react at all). Slapping someone's face is totally unacceptable in my opinion, doesn't matter who it is.

What is "inappropriate" is subjective and I don't think TAT did something worse in that gif than the years of psychological abuse & disregard for skaters' long term health that other coaches inflict on their students, especially minors, which other people find totally justifiable. Luckily there are many different coaches with different styles in the world, and it's ultimately up to the athlete or their parents to determine where to draw the line.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,801
:eek:

There is nothing funny about that video. I find it deeply disturbing. Was she ever disciplined for that incident? If not, I find that even more disturbing.

And I can only imagine what kind of uproar there would be if a similar incident were caught on video involving a male coach of that age and a female skater.

A bit weird..but obviously no uummfff in her arm..she is in boots and he is skating by her..if she really hit him she would be on her aaa ssss.
 

aliceanne

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,705
I was surprised when she said skaters in Russia took their ice time for granted, wasted practice time, and were divas. I thought there was not a lot of money put towards skating by the government, and that the athletes had to show results or were dropped from the program.

I would think in North America you would have a lot of pressure from the parents because they are spending so much money and want to see results.
 
D

Deleted member 40371

Guest
It seems pretty clear that Eteri only likes the skaters who are performing well for her. Anyone else, she has nothing good to say about them. Adian, Julia, Sergei .... all the same story.
Really is to why she is still keeping Tsurskaya, she works huge amount or Juniors and novice skaters. The actual reason for your statement is your typical Russophobia getting to head.
 

jenniferlyon

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,965
The point is that Adian was already skating with a back injury for the entire season and she acts as if it was just a behavioral issue. He came to the competition in the state which caused that skate. He was kind of provocative during the practicing process.

Not one word about the physical issue, and then she yelled at him after he got off the ice in visible pain. No sympathy whatsoever. And a total refusal to take responsibility for the fact that she might have contributed to this problem that now has his entire career in jeopardy. It's not comparable to Tarasova skating with a cut on her leg, but since you brought it up, Nina Mozer in almost every interview expresses her concern about the health of her skaters. She has empathy, which costs nothing, regardless of how strict you want to be as a coach. But Eteri ignores the elephant in the room and doesn't seem to care about her skaters' health at all. Only who gave her flowers when they left. :rolleyes: Let's not forget that Adian wasn't the only one who left with such issues...sure, these things can happen to anyone with any coach, but Yulia and Polina S. (and maybe Polina T., we'll see) and Adian isn't a very good track record, considering they were all still at the very beginning of their senior careers.

Eteri sounds like the figure skating version of the Karolyis. If they "lost" some of their elite gymnasts along the way, they figured it was worth it as long as their system kept producing champions like Nadia and Mary Lou. (For more on this, I recommend a book from the 1990s called Little Girls In Pretty Boxes. It's available on Kindle and there are plenty of used copies floating around.)
 

TAHbKA

Cats and garlic lover
Messages
17,195
I was surprised when she said skaters in Russia took their ice time for granted, wasted practice time, and were divas. I thought there was not a lot of money put towards skating by the government, and that the athletes had to show results or were dropped from the program.
Right, they have to show the results to be fully funded, aka to have a nice flat given, have enough money to spend their vacations in Dominican Republic and do shopping in Paris. Ice, if I understand the system correctly, belongs to the club. I.e. if there is a club that has Medvedeva/Tsurskaya/Zagitova etc - they would have enough ice time for the whole club. When the club stars are Menshov/Leonova they might be asked to skate a bit longer to have at least someone who brings the funding...
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,306
Eteri sounds like the figure skating version of the Karolyis.

In some ways and not at all in others. The Karolyis had a policy never to turn away an athlete. They took back competitors after those athletes left or struggled and even went through adolescence: Nadia, Philipps, Stack, Zmeskal, Durham. Athletes left and came back. And the Karolyis always recognized and credited the athletes who set the table and did the best in practice but didn't necessarily win the competitions: Fahn, Grivich, Ungureanu. They even took in Butyrskaya after the 96 Olympics. They believed in their system and they stuck with it. That is similar. But if you read, Feel No Fear, you will find very little blame with respect to the athletes. Bela blamed the politics a lot for outcomes he disliked; but he & Marta fought for all of their athletes.
 
Last edited:

Mad for Skating

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,882
No way she should be removed from the coaching world if Morozov is permitted to coach.

Pavlova is happily coaching even after Antipova went on Russian TV with the abuse she suffered from her, so I can't see why the federation would want to remove their currently most successful coach Tutberidze. No other Russian coach has been as successful this past season as Tutberidze is. She coaches ladies world champion, ladies junior champion, Russian novice champion...

I'm not saying that Tutberidze will be removed from the coaching system. I'm saying she should not be allowed to coach. Sadly, too much is tolerated and she will likely not be punished.
As for TAT and Kovtun, I think it was a gesture of frustration, not an attempt to harm him.
 

aliceanne

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,705
I'm not saying that Tutberidze will be removed from the coaching system. I'm saying she should not be allowed to coach. Sadly, too much is tolerated and she will likely not be punished.
As for TAT and Kovtun, I think it was a gesture of frustration, not an attempt to harm him.

I think the difference is also that Kovtun is an adult. He can choose to accept the coach's behavior or not.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,282
Sure does to me. Although I've heard a Mariinsky principal dancer say that things are now easier on the students in many respects, the severity of the teachers, the living conditions, etc. compared to when that dancer was going through the training. Vaganova was the school in question.

Those who want more info on this, watch the documentary about the ballet school in Perm, called A Beautiful Tragedy. The film focuses on Oksana Skorik training there. I have a feeling that film had everything do with her being accepted and then rapidly promoted at Mariinsky. I have given up on her as a dancer.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information