Shooting in Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas

[Skittl1321]

Trump has tweeted that this is not a gun problem, but a mental health problem.

OK, then, let's work on solving that problem. You know since there is nothing that could possibly be done about gun violence.

Oh wait, no, we are actually working to make it harder for people with mental health needs to get care.

 

[Skittl1321]

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that ratification must happen within "some reasonable time after the proposal." Since the 18th Amendment was ratified, Congress has set a term of seven years for ratification.

Which is why we don't have an equal rights amendment. Though Nevada did ratify it 45 years after it was proposed, the deadline had long since passed. Moot though, as it still wouldn't have enough votes.

 

[skatesindreams]

More details:

The shooter was first shot by an armed resident who confronted the gunman outside the church and shot him. The suspect then turned the gun on himself, authorities said

Texas church gunman Devin Kelley tried to get a license to carry a gun in Texas, but the state denied him, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said, citing the director of Texas' Department of Public Safety.

The massacre killed about 4% of the town's population. And no one at church was left unscathed, Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt said.
"I think nearly everyone had some type of injury," the sheriff told reporters Monday.

 

[Skittl1321]

The massacre killed about 4% of the town's population. And no one at church was left unscathed, Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt said.
"I think nearly everyone had some type of injury," the sheriff told reporters Monday.

Even without a physical injury, can you imagine going through that? I don't know how you could be unscathed.
We talk about mental health being the reason people are doing these things; but no one is talking about the trauma to the survivors.

A friend who was just in a cab on the strip in Las Vegas has been in therapy for PTSD for the things she saw. The number of "victims" is MUCH higher than the number who are dead or physically wounded. These shootings are traumatizing to everyone there, which has potential to be just as life altering as a physical injury.

 

[her grace]

Apparently the guy got his dishonorable discharge from the USAF for assaulting his wife and kid. This seems to be a common theme for mass shooters. I know there are laws on the books in various places (or attempts to make such laws), but let's enforce them: if you beat your family members, you get your guns taken away.

How about if you beat your family members, you go to jail and stay there? Clearly, a domestic abuser is willing to use force and is a danger to society.

 

[Deleted member 1204]

Trump has tweeted

He also said something along the lines of, "it would have been much worse if there hadn't been another citizen nearby to shoot back at him."

 

[AxelAnnie]

He also said something along the lines of, "it would have been much worse if there hadn't been another citizen nearby to shoot back at him."

Totally accurate. A citizen shot the man. And thank goodness. Who knows how many others he may have killed.

 

[AxelAnnie]

How about if you beat your family members, you go to jail and stay there? Clearly, a domestic abuser is willing to use force and is a danger to society.

I agree with you.

However, the problem is often the wife how goes back to the guy.

 

[allezfred]

Totally accurate. A citizen shot the man. And thank goodness. Who knows how many others he may have killed.

Imagine how many people would still be alive if he hadn’t been able to buy a gun. But I guess those who died are acceptable collateral damage to you.....

 

[oleada]

Totally accurate. A citizen shot the man. And thank goodness. Who knows how many others he may have killed.

After he had already killed and injured nearly everyone in that church.

It's my understanding that the other citizen didn't even stop the shooter - the shooter just decided to kill himself after that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ilovepaydays]

Totally accurate. A citizen shot the man. And thank goodness. Who knows how many others he may have killed.

As glad as I am that he was able to shoot and stop this man, I think it's worth noting how lucky he probably was. He could have easily been victim #27.

However, the problem is often the wife how goes back to the guy.

Um, I am very fortunate enough in my life to not have any experience with dangerous men. The closest I've had was a male ex-friend who (I think) wanted to sleep with me (I didn't - I have bad vibes about him). He was driving me home when I told him to be watch out for a truck that pulled in front of us. He preceded to scream and swear at me for the 20 minutes it tools to took for me to get home. I cut him off after that. I felt very disgusted with how he treated and probably viewed me. Ending a friendship that’s horrific can be hard enough - I would think a romantic relationship with all those emotions would be even harder.

I've read that it can be very difficult for a woman to leave an abusive partner and if she leaves, she needs A LOT of support and protection. In fact, it is often when a woman leaves that she's in the most danger of getting killed. It's worth thinking about when looking at these unfortunate situations.

 

[oleada]

The most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she is leaving her partner. She needs a lot of support and protection. Often, abusers isolate their partner from family and loved ones which makes leaving all that much more difficult.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Trump has tweeted that this is not a gun problem, but a mental health problem.

OK, then, let's work on solving that problem. You know since there is nothing that could possibly be done about gun violence.

Oh wait, no, we are actually working to make it harder for people with mental health needs to get care.

Trump is correct. Under Texas gun laws, that guy should not have had a gun.

Texas gun law.

Licensed carry of a handgun requires a "shall-issue" license, and is subject to specific laws governing trespass while armed. People who are barred from licensing include those under age 21, felons, fugitives, people who are "chemically dependent" or "incapable of exercising sound judgment", and those in arrears for taxes or child support.

And yes, we are making it more difficult to mandate mental health care for people who are clearly unstable.

Federal Protections. The federal government works to protect the rights of individuals with mental health disorders in a variety of settings, including the workplace,
schools, and in treatment. It sets privacy standards, prohibits abuse, and fights discrimination to promote civil liberties and inclusion. It works to provide reasonable accommodations and supports to those who need them. Mental Health America's history is deeply rooted in protecting the rights of those with mental health disorders, and this focus continues to guide our work. To learn more from MHA about rights and protections, check out Rights of Persons with Mental Health and Substance Use Conditions, Community Inclusion after Olmstead, and Privacy Rights.

How they got the guns. Interesting Article in the NYT

So, let us assume for a moment that this shooter could not get his hands on a gun. He is mentally ill. He wants to punish his Ex Wife with death. Ex Wife goes to this church. Could he have done as much damage with no gun? You betcha! He was an angry, dangerous lunatic, bent on imposing his own justice.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Trump has tweeted that this is not a gun problem, but a mental health problem.

OK, then, let's work on solving that problem. You know since there is nothing that could possibly be done about gun violence.

Oh wait, no, we are actually working to make it harder for people with mental health needs to get care.

Trump is correct. Under Texas gun laws, that guy should not have had a gun.

Texas gun law.

Licensed carry of a handgun requires a "shall-issue" license, and is subject to specific laws governing trespass while armed. People who are barred from licensing include those under age 21, felons, fugitives, people who are "chemically dependent" or "incapable of exercising sound judgment", and those in arrears for taxes or child support.

And yes, we are making it more difficult to mandate mental health care for people who are clearly unstable.

Federal Protections. The federal government works to protect the rights of individuals with mental health disorders in a variety of settings, including the workplace,
schools, and in treatment. It sets privacy standards, prohibits abuse, and fights discrimination to promote civil liberties and inclusion. It works to provide reasonable accommodations and supports to those who need them. Mental Health America's history is deeply rooted in protecting the rights of those with mental health disorders, and this focus continues to guide our work. To learn more from MHA about rights and protections, check out Rights of Persons with Mental Health and Substance Use Conditions, Community Inclusion after Olmstead, and Privacy Rights.

How they got the guns. Interesting Article in the NYT

So, let us assume for a moment that this shooter could not get his hands on a gun. He is mentally ill. He wants to punish his Ex Wife with death. Ex Wife goes to this church. Could he have done as much damage with no gun? You betcha! He was an angry, dangerous lunatic, bent on imposing his own justice.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Trump has tweeted that this is not a gun problem, but a mental health problem.

OK, then, let's work on solving that problem. You know since there is nothing that could possibly be done about gun violence.

Oh wait, no, we are actually working to make it harder for people with mental health needs to get care.

Trump is correct. Under Texas gun laws, that guy should not have had a gun.

Texas gun law.

Licensed carry of a handgun requires a "shall-issue" license, and is subject to specific laws governing trespass while armed. People who are barred from licensing include those under age 21, felons, fugitives, people who are "chemically dependent" or "incapable of exercising sound judgment", and those in arrears for taxes or child support.

And yes, we are making it more difficult to mandate mental health care for people who are clearly unstable.

Federal Protections. The federal government works to protect the rights of individuals with mental health disorders in a variety of settings, including the workplace,
schools, and in treatment. It sets privacy standards, prohibits abuse, and fights discrimination to promote civil liberties and inclusion. It works to provide reasonable accommodations and supports to those who need them. Mental Health America's history is deeply rooted in protecting the rights of those with mental health disorders, and this focus continues to guide our work. To learn more from MHA about rights and protections, check out Rights of Persons with Mental Health and Substance Use Conditions, Community Inclusion after Olmstead, and Privacy Rights.

How they got the guns. Interesting Article in the NYT

So, let us assume for a moment that this shooter could not get his hands on a gun. He is mentally ill. He wants to punish his Ex Wife with death. Ex Wife goes to this church. Could he have done as much damage with no gun? You betcha! He was an angry, dangerous lunatic, bent on imposing his own justice.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Sorry. something wrong with FSU or my browser. Thing posted 3 times, and won't let me delete it.

 

[oleada]

Really? He could have killed 27 people that easily without a gun? I doubt it

Guns escalate violence and make situations much more dangerous. The US is not alone in having abusive, disturbed men. It is alone in having these many mass shootings and this level of gun violence. I wonder what the difference could be.

Oh, yeah. It's guns.

 

[BlueRidge]

One thing this was not is what Trump claimed with zero evidence that it was: mental health/mental illness. It is reprehensible that he used mental health/mental illness as a way to try to say, "don't talk about guns." People living with mental illness are not often violent and he claimed this without any evidence for his statement.

It looks like domestic violence was a major issue.

 

[gkelly]

Really? He could have killed 27 people that easily without a gun? I doubt it

If he were determined to harm many people at once, and they were gathered together in an enclosed location such a church, there are other ways to do mass damage. Arson and explosives come to mind. Or poison in refreshments at a church event.

All those take planning, though. If you've already got a gun and ammunition, then it's easier to just use it spontaneously if you happen to snap.

 

[ilovepaydays]

It is reprehensible that he used mental health/mental illness as a way to try to say, "don't talk about guns." People living with mental illness are not often violent and he claimed this without any evidence for his statement.

It looks like domestic violence was a major issue.

I’m leaning towards domestic violence as well - until we get more evidence.

It’s also worth noting that those with mental health issues are significantly more likely to be the victims of violence, not the perpetrators. I think that the “mentally ill = being violent” stick that always gets said when these things happen make it harder for those dealing with issues to want to pursue successful medical treatment because of the stigma.

 

[oleada]

If he were determined to harm many people at once, and they were gathered together in an enclosed location such a church, there are other ways to do mass damage. Arson and explosives come to mind. Or poison in refreshments at a church event.

All those take planning, though. If you've already got a gun and ammunition, then it's easier to just use it spontaneously if you happen to snap.

That's exactly my point. A bomb, for example, takes a lot of work and it may not work as planned. Access to a gun makes it so easy.

 

[agalisgv]

It's my understanding that the other citizen didn't even stop the shooter - the shooter just decided to kill himself after that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's different from the accounts I've heard. I believe the citizen shot at the shooter, and this caused the shooter to drop the rifle and flee. The citizen then gave chase until the shooter ran off the road. Apparently it was at this point the shooter shot himself.

But so far the citizen is being credited with saving the lives of the rest of the church members.

That's what I've heard anyway.

 

[snoopy]

20 some dead and 20 some injured. Wasn't that the most of the people in the church?

 

[oleada]

^^ thanks. I had read something different on twitter but, it's twitter. It's an incredible thing, what that person did.

But it's also very unusual and not something that can go well.

 

[skatesindreams]

Updates:

The gunman who killed 26 people at a Texas church had sent threatening texts to his mother-in-law -- who attended the church he targeted, authorities said Monday.

Devin Patrick Kelley had domestic problems and texted his mother-in-law as recently as Sunday morning, not long before he carried out the largest mass shooting in Texas history.
"We know that he expressed anger towards his mother-in-law, who attends this church," said Freeman Martin of Texas' Department of Public Safety

-- After Kelley left the church, he was confronted and shot by an armed resident. After Kelley was shot, he called his father, telling him he didn't think he was going to make it, Martin said. That's when Kelley shot himself.
-- It was not immediately clear whether Kelley died from the self-inflicted gunshot wound or from the shot by the resident. "However, investigators found evidence at the scene that indicates the subject may have died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound," Martin said.

 

[Tinami Amori]

One consideration that they raised was that, while it seems like the right thing to do is to kick these people out, the military may be the only structure that they have in their lives. They cited a long list of examples where, when these people were sent home, things like this happened. It really made me think.

Same is true for immigrants who come from countries with strict/uniform/mono political, religious and/or social systems. They come to USA and feel lost amidst 100+ groups of people running around each with its own "agenda and ideology" without common "idea, purpose and system" in one country. I've seen too many immigrant youth joining cults, religions, extreme movements and feeling very frustrated about luck of "uniformity and common standards" in America.

What I find frustrating is that I see calls for tighter gun restrictions and gun control being met with arguments about the 2nd amendment when no one has called for a repeal of that amendment in the first place.

But that's not true, and you know it.... Even on this board there are people who insist that "one does not need a gun at home even for self-protection", and there are public figures with influence who would like to repeal 2nd amendment..
https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10154778028796857
https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/repeal-second-amendment
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/guns-second-amendment-nra.html

Imagine how many people would still be alive if he hadn’t been able to buy a gun. But I guess those who died are acceptable collateral damage to you.....

Imagine how many people would die if a person who planned and intended to kill a specific group of people, would have used explosives, if he could not get a gun, or ran them over with a truck in a parking lot.

One thing is clear now: if a person intends, plans and is mentally capable to commit a mass murder, he/she will find away; if he/she can't get guns, he/she will find other means. We have almost weekly examples of it. The issue is "state of mind", not "type of weapon".

That's different from the accounts I've heard. I believe the citizen shot at the shooter, and this caused the shooter to drop the rifle and flee. The citizen then gave chase until the shooter ran off the road. Apparently it was at this point the shooter shot himself..

That's is exactly what the evidence state. If the other citizen did not fire at the shooter, the shooter would still be firing at the church crowd.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/05/hero-neighbor-got-his-rifle-shot-at-texas-church-gunman/

 

[ilovepaydays]

This might be of interest to some of you - but noted Evangelical Christian pastor/author Skye Jethani posted this observation about what pastors in rural areas have been telling him about what's going on in their communities. I think there are many sobering points here that are worth thinking about.

 

[skatesindreams]

Who is going to protect those of us who choose not to join the "gun culture", from the "open carry" group who see "danger" at every turn; and therefore, a reason to use their weapon without due caution or restraint?

 

[AxelAnnie]

Who is going to protect those of us who choose not to join the "gun culture", from the "open carry" group who see "danger" at every turn; and therefore, a reason to use their weapon without due caution or restraint?

I don't know that the "open carry" group see "danger" at every turn. This guy didn't. Neither did the Las Vegas shooter.
I would like to think the same people (the Federal Government) who are protecting people riding their bike in NY from maniacs in trucks would be protecting us form the maniacs with guns. The guy in the church shooting did not see a "danger" he was responding to. He felt "going postal" was a good solution to whatever was bothering him.

 

[susan6]

I’m a Navy veteran, and while many servicemembers and veterans are some of the best people out there, I don’t think many people realize how common things like domestic violence and drug use are in the military. But the military is one of those jobs where the default is that a member is automatically wonderful without considering the person is actually like individually.

Yeah, my father was in the military. Listening to the wives talk, there's a LOT of alcoholism and sexual harassment in the ranks. It's like a fraternity. With guns. And their job is to face traumatic events. It's not entirely surprising that a former service member would snap. However, this particular guy seemed problematic even before he joined, judging by some of the stories we're hearing from people who knew him. Maybe the military needs to make its psych evals a bit more rigorous.