Pairs Discussion Thread 2019-20: “Two skating as one”

[Sylvia]

Can Boikova / Kozlovskii finally turn around their infamous "headcase" reputation away and prove their SC win wasn't fluke consolidate their russian No.1 position so far this season ?

Fixed that for ya!

 

[love_skate2011]

Fixed that for ya!

Boikova / Kozlovskii are inconsistent while Mishina / Gallaimov have had a stellar debut with being contenders also for NHK podium. B/K barely got 190 in GP last season and were non threats.

M/G have higher chance to be russian No.1 than B/K imo
a 2-3 points PCS difference in their first GP isnt big at all , M/G can make up technically as B/K are technically weaker.

 

[Colonel Green]

Boikova / Kozlovskii are inconsistent while Mishina / Gallaimov have had a stellar debut with being contenders also for NHK podium.

I don't see B/K as being all that inconsistent, certainly not more than M/G. The former had some bad luck on the Grand Prix last season, which had as much to do with their assignments as anything else, but they beat M/G at Russian nationals, they won bronze at Europeans, and finished top six at Worlds. They were foot-perfect in their first Grand Prix, while M/G had problems.

 

[love_skate2011]

I don't see B/K as being all that inconsistent, certainly not more than M/G. The former had some bad luck on the Grand Prix last season, which had as much to do with their assignments as anything else, but they beat M/G at Russian nationals, they won bronze at Europeans, and finished top six at Worlds. They were foot-perfect in their first Grand Prix, while M/G had problems.

yet M/G scored higher in their first GP even with Mishinas step outs

 

[Colonel Green]

yet M/G scored higher in their first GP even with Mishinas step outs

Er, no they didn't. B/K won SCI with 216.71, M/G got 207.58 in France, and most felt that B/K were underscored.

 

[love_skate2011]

Er, no they didn't. B/K won SCI with 216.71, M/G got 207.58 in France, and most felt that B/K were underscored.

I'm comparing with B/K debut last season who were scoing in 180-190 range.
M/G already getting 200+ in their first season

 

[rfisher]

I'm comparing with B/K debut last season who were scoing in 180-190 range.
M/G already getting 200+ in their first season

You are really, really setting yourself up for disappointment. You need to curb your fandom as you are really starting to annoy people. My suggestion for what it's worth: why don't you just wait till the end of the season to gush about what your favorites did because by then everybody will know exactly what that was. Which is all that counts. Because results are seldom what we hope they will be. There are simply too many variables.

 

[Colonel Green]

I'm comparing with B/K debut last season who were scoing in 180-190 range.
M/G already getting 200+ in their first season

So? If we're talking about who's more likely to be Russian #1 this season, B/K are in front right now. And in any direct head-to-head, B/K would reasonably expect the edge in components.

 

[SleepyShawn]

Really I’ve had enough of this “copying” thing going on lately. I know we all have our faves, but why can’t we appreciate individualities instead of trying to scrutinize and nitpick on every single frame to look for the slightest similarities? It’s not only tiring but also boring.

Can we just leave the skaters alone and let them be?

 

[AxelAnnie]

The Question in CoR pairs ?


Can Boikova / Kozlovskii finally turn around their infamous "headcase" reputation away and prove their SC win wasn't fluke ?

Headcase? When?

 

[AxelAnnie]

I'm comparing with B/K debut last season who were scoing in 180-190 range.
M/G already getting 200+ in their first season

WOW! what universe are you living in?

 

[Vash01]

The Question in CoR pairs ?

Will Tarasova / Morozov continue to struggle and abandon their russian No.1 position to Mishina / Galliamov ?
Will Stolbova / Novosleov debut with a bang ?
Can Boikova / Kozlovskii finally turn around their infamous "headcase" reputation away and prove their SC win wasn't fluke ?

I have already answered your questions in the other post but I will do it again, to clarify.

If T&M lose their number one position in Russia, it will not be to M&G. B&K have been skating very well and they are likely to be the successors.

B&K were never Headcase, except in your mind. They have been very consistent since last season. Their SC win was no fluke at all, but you can continue to hate them if you wish. In fact M&G’s win could have been a fluke for the simple reason that they skated against a weak pairs field.

No, S&N are not likely to debut with a bang. They are not G&G. I expect several mistakes from them in their first international competition.

 

[Vash01]

Boikova / Kozlovskii are inconsistent while Mishina / Gallaimov have had a stellar debut with being contenders also for NHK podium. B/K barely got 190 in GP last season and were non threats.

M/G have higher chance to be russian No.1 than B/K imo
a 2-3 points PCS difference in their first GP isnt big at all , M/G can make up technically as B/K are technically weaker.

Keep on drinking the MG cool aid. They could develop nicely in a few years but your comments are laughable right now. I don’t know why you hate B&K so much. May be because they threaten your darlings M&G?

 

[aftershocks]

I watched both Sui Han and M T M short programs: nothing similar in movement or mood whatsoever. Sui Han Nichol ‘channeling’ Savchenko? Sui Han Nichol ‘adopting’ poses of Manta Johnson? Nice try.

I'm not 'trying' for anything though. I'm simply sharing what I see and stating how I feel about trends in the pairs discipline. I find what's happening now in ice dance and pairs very exciting. It's a growth-making cross fertilization for both disciplines. I'm presenting my viewpoints in a conversational way, not an antagonistic way. It would be nice if overly defensive fans could recognize that none of this is a negative. For me, this is about having a conversation, which is pretty hard to have when others always seem to think it's about something negative. It's not.

We don't all have to see the same influences or share the same perceptions either.

For me, this opening move choreographed by Julie Marcotte for M-T/M is reminiscent of some moves in programs by Savchenko/Massot
https://youtu.be/22di5umzMbw?t=40 M-T/M sp Nebelhorn 2019

And there's a similar opening move here by Sui/Han. Not the same move, but it's similar:
https://youtu.be/edsXkkRu8Cc?t=38 Sui/Han sp opening CoC 2019
Plus Sui jumping up and straddling her legs around her partner's waist is very similar to moves we see in ice dance... of course famously taken to the sexy limit by V/M in Moulin Rouge

S/H's new sp is bluesy, yet somewhat similar in theme and even in costuming to M/T-M's last season's rock-themed Pink Floyd medley fp:

Kirsten MOORE TOWERS / Michael MARINARO Free Skate 2019 Canadian National Championships

Kirsten MOORE TOWERS / Michael MARINARO Free Skate 2019 Canadian National Skating Championships

www.youtube.com

D/F's sp from last season was to MJackson's pop song, Billie Jean:

Haven DENNEY & Brandon FRAZIER USA SP 2019 IV C

Haven DENNEY & Brandon FRAZIER USA SP 2019 IV C

www.youtube.com

And D/F previously skated to Queen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GlZoPKEA-E
D/F's revamped Lion King fp is a standout this lackluster season in pairs:

Haven Denney & Brandon Frazier - 2019 Nebelhorn Trophy FS

September 27, 2019 Nebelhorn Trophy. Music: "The Lion King" soundtrack by Hans Zimmer; Choreography by: Renee Roca.

www.youtube.com

D/F skated it better at SA and even better at SC
Skate America full pairs fps:

Skate America 2019 - Full Pairs FP

- Teledeporte (TDP) - Photo of the cover by Jay Adeff (U.S. Figure Skating).

www.youtube.com

What I am animated by most are the current trends influenced by ice dance and innovated by ice dance choreographers for pairs programs. It's been going on for awhile, and has been epitomized in the skating of Savchenko/Massot and James/Cipres. It's old news too, because it's already been written about in the skating community. S/M and J/C have previously spoken about it:

Pairs glide into new era with Disturbed dance moves

Roll over Beethoven and prepare to be Disturbed.

www.reuters.com

James and Ciprès Find New Motivation

By Hiro Yoshida A nightmare end to a dream season means Vanessa James and Morgan Ciprès have unfinished business when it comes to skating.

europeonice.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUBtzJVvyKo S/M 2016-2017 sp innovative and based on ice dance quickstep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si5ggJPPVWo P/J 2016-2017 sp incorporating slapstick humor with a jazzy bordello-type concept in their debut season

And yes, Manta/Johnson's 2019 FD at U.S. Nationals has been influential likely both directly and indirectly, no matter who can see it, believe it or accept it:
I see some of the M/J choreo by Chris Dean influence in this choreo by Lori Nichol:
https://youtu.be/gfIhiRly_gk?t=208 Sui/Han fp CoC 2019
3:28 arm, hand and body movements preceding lift at 3:52, and movements after the lift going into the next lift

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ94uKRNFgs Manta/Johnson 2019 U.S. Natls FD Entire program is fun to watch; it's innovative, influential and inspirational, especially at 3:10+ 3:24+ and the 'vogueing/ posing' step sequence from 3:43 to 3:56 plus the lift positions and repeat moves; this FD tells a story to the music and fully expresses the skaters' personalities. And note Charlie White's commentary: "Fun, creative... pushing the sport forward; pushing the boundaries..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K60LrVPLTcw Fear/Gibson SC 2019 FD
The same goes for this innovative program which I think was in part influenced by Manta/Johnson's program, particularly in the vogueing step sequence starting around 3:38. But F/G do a fresh take that's unique in its own right, and equally expresses the personalities of F/G. Neither F/G nor M/J are the best technical ice dancers, though F/G are more skilled than M/J. What both teams are great at is performance and creativity. M/J worked with Chris Dean for years. I'd love to see F/G work with Dean as well!

None of this means 'exact copying.' It means influences and inspirations, as well as spontaneous creativity by choreographers that might be similar to ideas and programs by other choreographers, or in some cases, directly influenced...

 

[aftershocks]

yet M/G scored higher in their first GP even with Mishinas step outs

So what. B/K are a much more interesting team at this point, with a lot more personality and connection on display than M/G. Plus B/K have the legendary and inimitable Moskvina on their side and at their side!

Hopefully M/G and P/K won't end up going the route of T/M and Z/E: boring as hell till death do them part.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I have already answered your questions in the other post but I will do it again, to clarify.

If T&M lose their number one position in Russia, it will not be to M&G. B&K have been skating very well and they are likely to be the successors.

B&K were never Headcase, except in your mind. They have been very consistent since last season. Their SC win was no fluke at all, but you can continue to hate them if you wish. In fact M&G’s win could have been a fluke for the simple reason that they skated against a weak pairs field.

No, S&N are not likely to debut with a bang. They are not G&G. I expect several mistakes from them in their first international competition.

I sooo agree! B&K have been nothing but strong and impressive.

They will be the number 1 team for sure in Russia.

M&G won in a weak field. Thats why ANL gets so piss*d. Pairs again will be weak in Russia (shocker) and then NHK is unfair (and thats with J&C being out of it). EVERY TEAM on its roster except one has been on a GP podium. Well, that was the case before J&C substitute came in.

 

[aftershocks]

Um. Completely different music. Don’t know where you got your facts.

For me on first take, it sounded like different renditions of the same composition. But I see that's not the case.

S/M's Olympic fp music is La Terre vue du ciel and S/H's fp music is as millyskate notes, the Rain in Your Black Eyes selection formerly used by Pap/Ciz.

The music selections are very similar in mood and theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wLqdIe7saE La terre vue du ciel

YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[oleada]

M&G won in a weak field

To be fair, M&G have no control over that. They can only beat whoever is there. They can’t control that both Zabijako/Enbert and James/Ciprés withdrew.

As someone who actually is a fan of Mishina/Galliamov, can we just agree to ignore this troll? I’m half convinced she’s trying to annoy everyone so much they root against them which is not what two hard working skaters deserve

 

[aftershocks]

Wins are wins of course. M/G likely would have had more difficulty winning against more established, veteran champion teams like Z/E and J/C. Meanwhile, the fields B/K won against were slightly deeper. The important thing is to be prepared to do your best against whomever...

B&K were never Headcase, except in your mind.

Exactly.

Dmitri is intense, while Alek strikes me as a pairs diva sweetheart! ♥

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWcVm1z_HTE SC sp Classical delight
Notice the gorgeous dance lift carry spin before the final sbs spins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVwr___GdkE SC fp James Bond cool

Moskvina is aptly taking these two in hand and guiding them beautifully. I can see the growth and improvements since last season when they were also good, but a bit more immature in their senior debut. Dmitri is visibly more controlled in his emotions, and there's a new air of calm and confidence that they are both exuding. Steady as they go...

 

[Mad for Skating]

The relatively unusual thing this season is the prospect of there being five different gold medalist teams, if Tarasova/Morozov win Rostelecom. That's the scenario where two silver medals wouldn't be enough.

If T/M win in Russia and MT/M are 2nd at NHK (with M/G 3rd), then P/K would probably be out. They'd be tied on points with MT/M with 2 silvers each, but MT/M only need 194.66 to beat them on the score tiebreak. That's a perfectly plausible scenario.

Okay, gotcha! It’s a bit of an odd situation this year, so I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
I think Russia has 5-6 very competitive pairs who could fight for the 3 spots at Worlds, and all of them are deserving. My personal dream team would be Boikova/Kozlovskii, Tarasova/Morozov, and Stolbova/Novoselov, but I’m not wishing ill on the other teams, and I’m not fooling myself about their strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day, I just want the three most deserving teams to get the spots.

 

[Japanfan]

For me, this opening move choreographed by Julie Marcotte for M-T/M is reminiscent of some moves in programs by Savchenko/Massot
https://youtu.be/22di5umzMbw?t=40 M-T/M sp Nebelhorn 2019

And there's a similar opening move here by Sui/Han. Not the same move, but it's similar:
https://youtu.be/edsXkkRu8Cc?t=38 Sui/Han sp opening CoC 2019
Plus Sui jumping up and straddling her legs around her partner's waist is very similar to moves we see in ice dance... of course famously taken to the sexy limit by V/M in Moulin Rouge

S/H's new sp is bluesy, yet somewhat similar in theme and even in costuming to M/T-M's last season's rock-themed Pink Floyd medley fp:

I think you would also find similarities in singles and dance programs. Perhaps more in singles, actually, given that there is only one skater. Especially in the case of the warhorses - think of all the girls/women who skate to Carmen.

None of this means 'exact copying.' It means influences and inspirations, as well as spontaneous creativity by choreographers that might be similar to ideas and programs by other choreographers, or in some cases, directly influenced...

FS coaches and skaters watch FS programs and are bound to be influenced by them. There are bound to be some similarities between programs, especially given the technical requirements. How many pairs end their programs with a spin?

Creativity and innovation in the sport are rare - although one could argue the opposite, that they are actually fundamental to the sport. I appreciate both points of view. For me, they are rare, so I really appreciate them. I remember when a pair (S/P, I think) did a 'spin within a spin' movement. I don't remember the details exactly, but it was pretty cool. I also thought that S/H's opening pose in their LP last year was pretty cool.

But of course there are many figure skaters we never see - competitive skaters who don't have international opportunities, adult skaters, juniors who never make it to seniors.

So, there is bound to be some similarities between various skaters.

But OTOH, all skaters are unique individuals, and have their own stamp/style - or should aspire to.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I'm comparing with B/K debut last season who were scoing in 180-190 range.
M/G already getting 200+ in their first season

Why are you obsessed with B/K's marks from last season? Key word being LAST. Today those marks mean nothing. Last time I saw they are competing THIS season and THIS season they already scored 216 (second only to S/H so far) with a lot more chances to increase their personal best, and reputation along with it, to come.

And you, and all skating fans, know that nothing is easy to predict. Just because M/G are scoring 200+ today does not mean they will continue going up. For all we know they could easily stall in the 200-210 range for the rest of this season and in the next. There is no guarantee they will make the improvements to increase their PCS marks. There are many skaters with raw technical talent who never develop artistically despite all efforts of trying. Its not as easy to gain artistry as you keep claiming. Sometimes you just don't have it and never do.

 

[aftershocks]

How many pairs end their programs with a spin?

Placement of elements in programs doesn't necessarily have a great deal to do with pairs innovation and emulation of interesting moves. I think element placement has more bearing on how the structure and layout will work with choreo and music selection, and also the difficulty of individual elements as related to timing and endurance, etc. The placement of spins at the end of programs across most disciplines, except ice dance, has become so boring and predictable. Part of the reason likely has to do with trying to conserve energy to get through difficult elements, thus by default placing the dizzymaking multiple spin requirements last. I think we see the placement of spins moreso at the end of singles programs. Some pairs teams vary in where they place spins...

In the case of D/F's recent placement of most of their lifts at the end of the Lion King fp, that was about creating innovative impact which builds with and enhances the drama of the music. Brandon said it was John Z's idea and it has been working beautifully, so be prepared for some teams to emulate their success, as long as the right music is found with which to capitalize on such a strategy.

I'm not sure whether you are trying to downplay the importance of influences and inspirations that we are seeing in ice dance and pairs. I contend that emulation or 'copying' is a positive thing which has always occurred and is a significant part of the growth of all figure skating disciplines, particularly today in pairs.

Without Belousova/Protopopov's balletic aesthetic innovations in the 1960s, we would not have death spirals and the Russian balletic aesthetic dominance that completely transformed the entire discipline. Without Moskvina's innovations, we would not have fascinating lift positions and the pairs combo spin which has been so successfully cross-fertilized to ice dance. Without the recent trend with former ice dancers bringing ice dance moves and aesthetics to pairs choreography, programs would lack the unique energy and excitement we've been seeing in recent years, especially exemplified in the programs of J/C and S/M, which have been widely emulated.

As I mentioned previously in the Savchenko thread, the innovation of acrobatic jumps happened via experimental exploration by figure skaters (Ulrich Salchow, Axel Paulsen, Alois Lutz, et al) who were probably tired of simply tracing figures on the ice and thus decided to expand the limits by going airborne. TPTB were appalled, and pushed back at first against such acrobatics. I wonder what they would think about the current over-fascination with eye-bending split-second multiple rotations, especially among ladies teenyboppers?

Maybe it's a good thing that the go-to thinking in pairs is to not reward quad throws and quad twists because such moves (while spectacular) are more dangerous and have led to a number of injuries. The lack of point value nixed the risk-reward factor. At the moment, I think it's a positive thing for pairs to work on developing unique and unexpected moves, and to continue incorporating dance-related elements in exciting ways. Pairs skaters also need to work more on perfecting their blade skills, speed, synchronization and technical prowess.

 

[Japanfan]

I'm not sure whether you are trying to downplay the importance of influences and inspirations that we are seeing in ice dance and pairs.

Not at all.

I contend that emulation or 'copying' is a positive thing which has always occurred and is a significant part of the growth of all figure skating disciplines, particularly today in pairs.

It really depends on how one defines 'copying'. If it is taken to mean 'taking something that rightfully belongs to someone else', then it would not be a positive thing. If it is taken to mean 'using or doing something creative that some others have used/done also' - in an way unique to the doer - it would be a positive. There are trends and direction in figure skating/art/film etc. that might on the one hand been seen as copying, but on the other hand could be seen utilizing new forms/ideas within a medium of expression.

And within sport/dance/other mediums, there are bound to be certain similarities due to the bounds/requirements of the medium (think of the formulas used for mystery novels, for example, and done so successfully for a very long time). But as I said previously, skaters/artists are unique individuals who have their own individual stamp/style, or should aspire to.

And in some cases, artists may do something that for some, could look to be 'copying', but have not had any intention to so. When S/Z skated to 'Meditation', comparisons to B/S were inevitable. But S/Z did not even know B/S had skated to that program - or more accurately, probably forget, as they were bronze medalists in SLC.

 

[aftershocks]

There's no need to get hung up with semantics. As I said, there's nothing negative about emulating moves. It's a natural and a necessary occurrence in order for the sport to grow.

When moves are co-opted for the sake of it, or in the hopes of re-creating someone else's success, but without putting a unique spin, fresh perspective or signature stamp on the emulation, then simply copying doesn't work.

This idea of emulation transfers to all fields of endeavor. We don't live in a vacuum. We learn by doing, seeing, copying, experimenting, adding, subtracting and putting our own unique stamp on everything we do. Or else, in some cases, there's just derivative copying that ends up being bland or rote and not going anywhere.

I think you are looking at this in a more negative way, unnecessarily so. This is not about copyright protection. Not at all. In figure skating, it just doesn't work that way. All ideas and movement innovations are up for grabs. Just copying mindlessly is not what this is about. There has to be intention, inspiration, self-expression, fresh perspectives and adding a new twist or using various ideas and influences in unique ways in order for there to be innovation and growth.

In addition, using similar or same music is unavoidable. It usually means that the music is interesting, accessible, and works well for figure skating. For example, J/C used Say Something for a fp one season. Duhamel/Radford had previously used the same music for an exhibition. Other skaters had also used it before D/R, and it's still being used. That has nothing to do with copying -- J/C may or may not have seen D/R's exhibition. If they did see it, maybe they liked the music and later thought about using it, or else someone on their coaching staff or one of their choreographers suggested it. A lot of skaters have used that song. It works well for skating programs. There are all kinds of different interpretations of the same music that are possible. Even in the same season, skaters have been picking the same or similar music coincidentally. And probably, sometimes it's not a coincidence.

When Debi Thomas had the idea to skate to a James Bond medley while shedding a short trench coat, and then paring down the skating outfit underneath to an even skimpier outfit that all went together beautifully with the James Bond music themes, her unique take (for that time period) was widely and directly copied. James Bond medleys have become a never-ending music source for skating programs.

The recent debate and kerfuffle surrounding a fs choreographer copping moves from a particular dance choreographer's modern dance composition to transfer to the ice, is not part of what I'm talking about. That's fairly much direct co-opting or lifting of moves from one art medium to an art/sport arena, without crediting the original choreographer.

 

[Vash01]

To be fair, M&G have no control over that. They can only beat whoever is there. They can’t control that both Zabijako/Enbert and James/Ciprés withdrew.

As someone who actually is a fan of Mishina/Galliamov, can we just agree to ignore this troll? I’m half convinced she’s trying to annoy everyone so much they root against them which is not what two hard working skaters deserve

I like M&G too and I would like to see them develop over the next few years. I was not trying to belittle their win. They skated clean. They did their job. I just didn’t want to crown them Russia’s number one, yet.

I have to add that I love the skating of T&M (both T&Ms) and I never find them boring. Underperforming May be, because of their tremendous potential. I really liked Z&E last season. They (particularly Natalia) have lovely classical lines. They did try their style last season to separate themselves from others, but I like the pure pairs skating more.

It is an Interesting observation that the troll is trying to turn other posters against M&G. That may very well be the case. I should just ignore ridiculous posts by this poster.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

It is an Interesting observation that the troll is trying to turn other posters against M&G. That may very well be the case. I should just ignore ridiculous posts by this poster.

This is definitely someone having fun at M&G's expense. It's quiet unfortunate.

 

[aftershocks]

I like M&G too and I would like to see them develop over the next few years. I was not trying to belittle their win. They skated clean. They did their job. I just didn’t want to crown them Russia’s number one, yet.

I have to add that I love the skating of T&M (both T&Ms) and I never find them boring. Underperforming May be, because of their tremendous potential. I really liked Z&E last season. They (particularly Natalia) have lovely classical lines. They did try their style last season to separate themselves from others, but I like the pure pairs skating more.

To be honest, it's possible that M/G and P/K have some sparks of something that can develop into them bringing more personality to the ice. It's just not a certainty. And I'm with you in not appreciating newbie skaters to seniors being immediately over-rewarded. Boi/Kos at least paid some dues last season. I know this is a transitional season with top teams out of the mix, but still P/K and M/G IMO are being over-scored, particularly on PCS. In part, this is due to these new young teams' technical chops, but the over-rewarding is also likely due to T/M not dominating the way they have been expected to for so long.

Last season, Peng/Jin were a bit over-scored because they were the only top Chinese team on the GP scene for several seasons and the Chinese rep had to be upheld, even though P/J still have so far not lived up to their quality talent.

In general, Russian pairs teams have tended to be technically brilliant, but largely lacking in the personality and expressiveness department. I don't ever make any excuses for any Russian team because they have "lovely, classical lines." For me, pairs skating is NOT exciting unless teams bring charismatic connection to the ice and project something rare and indefinable together that mesmerizes audiences. Of course that is not always easy to happen. But for me, I'm just not going to make excuses for Russian teams who are always immediately over-rewarded for their technical skills and Russian aesthetic tradition, without having to pay much dues, regardless of how boring they are otherwise.

Some of these young Russian teams also give off facial expressions that are so arrogant and defiant, which is not necessary. Maybe in part that's a bit of defensiveness and competitiveness on their parts because of how hard they have to battle amidst Russian pairs depth. What I enjoy about Boi/Kos is that they seem sweet and tough at the same time, without exhibiting an overly petulant, arrogant stance. Kos aggressively cheerleads and celebrates only after they actually accomplish something.

T/M have sometimes acted as if they are entitled to always win. I blame the judges in part for over-rewarding T/M when they didn't deserve overly high scores. T/M are thus paying for that now in lowered confidence. Plus, if they aren't getting along personally that's another drawback for them. Sure, they can still turn things around.

 

[aftershocks]

It is interesting that a number of Russian teams are good technically, but don't project or connect well. For me the only Russians who were well-rounded technically and possessed interesting personalities on the ice are Gordeeva/ Grinkov, the Protopopovs (B/P), Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, Rodnina with her partners, but she was the driving force especially in terms of fierce desire and athleticism, and Dmitriev with his partners, but his personality was the driving force which elevated both partnerships.

In addition, Max Trankov blossomed with Tat Volosozhar despite pairing too late in their careers to reach full creative potential. Stolbova/Klimov became a revelation when they tweaked themselves and got in shape for the 2014 Olympics. Prior to redefining themselves brilliantly in Sochi, Stol/Klim were a snore. I truly enjoyed Moskvina's work with Kavaguti/ Smirnov and with Bechke/Petrov. I liked Bazarova with Deputat* (though they never got off the ground apparently due to tech shortcomings), but she was such a bore with her first partner no matter how they were always held up around 6th place in the scoring at Worlds. Ashtakova/Rogonov were fun to watch, largely due to his charisma, but they too never reached their full potential as she apparently didn't want to skate anymore. *Deputat with Davankova in Juniors were a to-die-for pairing, but alas she grew too tall for him and they never made it to seniors together.

Sadly both T/Ms (Evgenia/Vlad & Totmianina/Marinin) are/were boring together, despite being so lovely and attractive, and technically skilled. Both could give fs pairs clinics. I just don't understand the lack of on-ice connection between both these teams. Ev/Vlad seem to project more in exhibitions, and in the beginning Tot/Mar seemed to have such a bright future. She was a bit quirky and seemingly shy, and he was more expansive with a beautiful smile. They were lovely to watch, but ultimately Zzzzzz. The fact they won OGM is a big so what, who cares in terms of pairs figure skating history.

In fact, Z/E remind me of Tot/Mar in the boring personality/ lack of connection respects, except maybe Tot/Mar were a bit more interesting and accomplished. In person, Z/E give off a sense of some lifeblood, and they are nice young people, and they try but IMO they are consistently overscored on PCS because of their long lines, tech abilities and Russian rep status. Some of the other 70s and 80s Russian teams to me are largely forgettable, although their names may still be familiar.

 

[Vash01]

It is interesting that a number of Russian teams are good technically, but don't project or connect well. For me the only Russians who were well-rounded technically and possessed interesting personalities on the ice are Gordeeva/ Grinkov, the Protopopovs (B/P), Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, Rodnina with her partners, but she was the driving force especially in terms of fierce desire and athleticism, and Dmitriev with his partners, but his personality was the driving force which elevated both partnerships.

In addition, Max Trankov blossomed with Tat Volosozhar despite pairing too late in their careers to reach full creative potential. Stolbova/Klimov became a revelation when they tweaked themselves and got in shape for the 2014 Olympics. Prior to redefining themselves brilliantly in Sochi, Stol/Klim were a snore. I truly enjoyed Moskvina's work with Kavaguti/ Smirnov and with Bechke/Petrov. I liked Bazarova with Deputat* (though they never got off the ground apparently due to tech shortcomings), but she was such a bore with her first partner no matter how they were always held up around 6th place in the scoring at Worlds. Ashtakova/Rogonov were fun to watch, largely due to his charisma, but they too never reached their full potential as she apparently didn't want to skate anymore. *Deputat with Davankova in Juniors were a to-die-for pairing, but alas she grew too tall for him and they never made it to seniors together.

Sadly both T/Ms (Evgenia/Vlad & Totmianina/Marinin) are/were boring together, despite being so lovely and attractive, and technically skilled. Both could give fs pairs clinics. I just don't understand the lack of on-ice connection between both these teams. Ev/Vlad seem to project more in exhibitions, and in the beginning Tot/Mar seemed to have such a bright future. She was a bit quirky and seemingly shy, and he was more expansive with a beautiful smile. They were lovely to watch, but ultimately Zzzzzz. The fact they won OGM is a big so what, who cares in terms of pairs figure skating history.

In fact, Z/E remind me of Tot/Mar in the boring personality/ lack of connection respects, except maybe Tot/Mar were a bit more interesting and accomplished. In person, Z/E give off a sense of some lifeblood, and they are nice young people, and they try but IMO they are consistently overscored on PCS because of their long lines, tech abilities and Russian rep status. Some of the other 70s and 80s Russian teams to me are largely forgettable, although their names may still be familiar.

You didn’t think that M&D were not passionate on ice? Or G&G? B&S were more subtle (Elena) but they had personality, emotions and connection with each other.

Those long lines and great pictures require skills. They were not born with it. It is more difficult to Maintain those and complete the difficult technical elements. I see too many lifts and throws done with ugly positions that get high marks these days.

PCS don’t depend only on facial expressions. The skating itself needs to express music and many Russian pairs expressed music we’ll because of their mastery over the blade.

I liked both T&M. You may find them boring. We are just different, with different tastes.