Olympic champ Zagitova challenges US skater after criticism

[Deleted member 53443]

"You press from the foot you're on, you don't push to the foot you're going to".

That's pretty basic stuff, even if it comes from a high level choreographer. I suspect that Eteri/Med/Zag knows this.

They're only doing [what they do] for the points

Ehhh, yes, and? Is this the secret why they won because the other skaters didn't skate for points lol? That statement is a little bizarre.

For my undtrained eye, I get the impression the Russian girls' movement is built on and inspired more by classical ballet, with lightness and a wonderful "feathery" quality to the movements which isn't necessarily built on super deep edges. They also have a flow in their program and they don't glide forever to set up a jump (which I personally think is disturbing the flow of the program).

 

[Nadya]

Okay @Nadya, you're exactly right that I know nothing about you, except what you choose to show on this forum, which is obviously your vociferously stout and aggressive opinions with no leeway for being thoughtful and reflective.

...Uh, maybe you are Eteri, eh!

....Your view is the scorched-earth, dog-eat-dog, every person for themselves, cutthroat, smile for the cameras and knife 'em in the back way of seeing the world. Fine that does tend to work quite often, especially in figure skating. Yo tough mama, werk it wid yo bad self, and get over time and again until you don't, until you all played out. ...... But yeah, carry on as you will with your bold, in-your-face, 'born yesterday' viewpoints.

I'm just gonna quote that and do nothing else, so your crazy stands out better.

 

[IceAlisa]

No one has a monopoly on deciding "what figure skating is truly all about." There is no "truly" in it. That's Dickson's opinion. Carve this into your cortex: the only opinion that matters is the judges' and the rulebook's.

So why are you here? There's nothing to discuss, is there, if only what the judges think matters. Case closed. Move on. And yet, here you are

 

[becca]

I personally think that Ashley has made some very disrespectful comments about the young Russians like "sonograms." I somehow doubt people would appreciate if the Russians said Ashley needed a walker.

It is one thing to criticize a programs balance another to say that is not what skating is. Zag does as many jumps and spins as Ashley she just goes about it differently.

There is something disrespectful about that comment and I think Alina deserves better.


I personally think lack of relation to the music and artistry in general is subjective. Zags jumps are timed to the music. I think Med feels what she is skating. Culture plays a role in things as well.

So I am glad Alina isn't taking things sitting down.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

Zagitova has an Olympic Gold Medal. That speaks for itself.

I always liked Ashley’s outspokenness, but she’s really coming across as whiny and desperate for attention now. It’s time for her to let it go and move on.

 

[aftershocks]

The reason any skater does anything is to rack up points. That is the whole idea. Can Zagitova improve, of course she can just like Bradie needs to develop her PCS side, Zagitova needs to continue to develop hers, but to say that she doesn’t engage “the audience authentically” is just mumbo jumbo said in hopes of sounding artistic and sophisticated. Tom Dickson should be above such crap.

Hey, you can think it's 'the whole idea.' I see figure skating as more than simply racking up points. When skaters go about the business of learning all they can, setting goals and improving, finding the right music and choreography, and paying attention to what they do best and how they can maximize what they do best, then the points will come.

At the highest level of competition, check out the comments of Meagan Duhamel as she described how she and Eric strategized what elements to include in their programs and what wasn't working for them (on TSL's Olympic pairs wrap-up). It's always a balancing act and a give and take. Yes, D/R wanted to achieve the most points they could, but not in a way that is only about the points. They were also concerned about growing as skaters and reaching the audience with their performance. When V/M came back, of course they wanted to achieve the highest levels on every element and gain the most points, but their focus was on exploring a different movement style and growing as skaters under D/L's mentorship. V/M missed the competitive experience and they wanted to get back to the Olympics, but they have said their focus was not solely on another gold medal. It was about the integrity of the choices they made (music, choreography, costumes), and about working hard and remaining true to themselves. The points and the medals followed after that. If you think integrity and authenticity is just mumbo jumbo, so be it. I doubt V/M and D/R would agree with you.

Here I am fairly sure you are wrong. Having integrity in competition means doing everything possible within the rules to win. That is showing respect for your competition. If other Skaters could put all their jumping passes in the second half, they would.

We see it differently @mag. I'm referring to the integrity that some skaters have for not sacrificing every reason they entered the sport and what they wish to achieve in the sport as a well-rounded skater, simply to rack up points with no attention to understanding and embracing their choreography and expressing the music, or no attention to trying to improve their skating skills. If you or your child are only in it to game the system and rise to the top by means that subvert and bend the rules solely for the money and glory (if you can get there), more power to you. The rules for 10% bonus were not instituted to accommodate backloading. There's nothing in the rules that prevents skaters from doing that, but it certainly is not the intention of the rule. It's perfectly okay that backloading is condoned and some people like to defend how the Russian ladies take advantage of it. Let's see if that rule remains the same or whether it will eventually be adjusted.

It's not really about being wrong or right. Everyone can and does see things differently, and that's fine. You reap what you sow. It's a tough sport and not everyone is going to make it to the top and win medals at the Olympics. I'm sure all skaters set certain goals for themselves, and they are happy when they achieve those goals on the ice, no matter what scores they receive, because they only have control over what they do on the ice, not over what the judges do. Often as a young skater, when you find out who you are as a person and you learn how to express that on the ice, that's quite often when your hard work begins to pay off. Just ask Adam Rippon.

 

[mag]

@aftershocks Something has gone wrong with the quotes so, you said:
We see it differently @mag. I'm referring to the integrity that some skaters have for not sacrificing every reason they entered the sport and what they wish to achieve in the sport as a well-rounded skater, simply to rack up points with no attention to understanding and embracing their choreography and expressing the music, or no attention to trying to improve their skating skills.

To that I respond: Why is it when I suggested that it appeared as though Bradie’s team had been focusing on the TES side of things and that I hoped that moving forward they would have time to spend developing the PCS side did you leap down my throat and insist that Bradie was a natural jumper and that of course they had been focusing on PCS? Because now, you are accusing Zagitova’s of not trying to improve her skating skills, of not trying to embrace her choreography or express her music. Seems a bit two faced to me. Zagitova is 5 years younger than Bradie and already embraces her choreography and expresses her music at least as well as Bradie if not better. As the expression goes, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Oh, and while I have no scientific study to back this up, I will suggest that all elite athletes, and most non elite athletes, are in it to win, or at least to gain as many points as possible. D&R may well have done all those things you said, but suggesting that they weren’t there to maximize their points is ridiculous. Same for V&M. Megan and Scott were the driving force behind the strategy for the team event. They were absolutely clear: Canada was in it to win gold. Silver was not an option. They did everything they could, looked at all the options, and made the decisions they felt gave them the very best chance of a gold medal.

 

[aftershocks]

That's pretty basic stuff, even if it comes from a high level choreographer. I suspect that Eteri/Med/Zag knows this.

Uh, maybe they know this, but that's not how they skate.

... They're only doing [what they do] for the points

Ehhh, yes, and? Is this the secret why they won because the other skaters didn't skate for points lol? That statement is a little bizarre.

Hey, if backloading works for the Russian ladies, let it continue to work. That's still not what the rule was intended for. And so we'll see how long it will be before the rule might be adjusted. I'm sure every skater and their team strategize for points under this system, taking into consideration all aspects of their abilities and what they hope to achieve on the ice. If it's only about point-grabbing without paying attention to all other aspects of their skating and programs, then I doubt skaters will be successful. Eteri doesn't leave any aspect unexplored. It's not just about backloading for her, it's about a whole lot of other things, including repetitive practice and creating an image for her skaters on the ice. Even if it involves camouflaging, the images she creates for her skaters have been working. They are not simply backloading programs to win. And if her young ladies did not have the stamina and endurance under their belts, the backloading would never work.

What Dickson said is indeed his personal view as a choreographer. He's concerned about seeing skaters express the music, not simply throw in rushed moves for points that have nothing to do with the music, and that do not help skaters grow aesthetically. But yeah, continue missing the point.

For my undtrained eye, I get the impression the Russian girls' movement is built on and inspired more by classical ballet, with lightness and a wonderful "feathery" quality to the movements which isn't necessarily built on super deep edges. They also have a flow in their program and they don't glide forever to set up a jump (which I personally think is disturbing the flow of the program).

That's the effect Eteri obviously wants to give, but if you ask authorities with trained eyes who are familiar with classical ballet, they will likely tell you differently. Neither Zagitova nor Medvedeva seem to me as if they are taking extensive daily ballet classes, but perhaps they have undertaken some ballet training and practice. It's a different story regarding whether they are successfully transferring what they may have learned to the ice, in terms of an understanding of arm carriage, position and line, and holding out their moves. They rush from move to move. And that's not balletic.

Zagitova strikes me as more of a modern dancer, like what we saw in her exhibition number. Just because Zagitova dresses up in extravagant tutus, prances and poses with smiles and backbends, does not make her 'balletic.' There's a superficiality to Zagitova's programs. She's very athletic, but I wouldn't call her balletic. Neither are her moves 'light and feathery' AT ALL. She does not have great speed, nor great height and ice coverage on her jumps. Zagitova rotates well and she's fairly consistent and well-practiced. She's also a better jumper than Medvedeva, which may have been what influenced the judges' decision. Zagitova has the potential to improve artistically and technically. But will she, after she's already won the ultimate OGM in her first year in seniors?

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks To that I respond: Why is it when I suggested that it appeared as though Bradie’s team had been focusing on the TES side of things and that I hoped that moving forward they would have time to spend developing the PCS side did you leap down my throat and insist that Bradie was a natural jumper and that of course they had been focusing on PCS? Because now, you are accusing Zagitova’s of not trying to improve her skating skills, of not trying to embrace her choreography or express her music. Seems a bit two faced to me. Zagitova is 5 years younger than Bradie and already embraces her choreography and expresses her music at least as well as Bradie if not better. As the expression goes, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Oh, and while I have no scientific study to back this up, I will suggest that all elite athletes, and most non elite athletes, are in it to win, or at least to gain as many points as possible. D&R may well have done all those things you said, but suggesting that they weren’t there to maximize their points is ridiculous. Same for V&M. Megan and Scott were the driving force behind the strategy for the team event. They were absolutely clear: Canada was in it to win gold. Silver was not an option. They did everything they could, looked at all the options, and made the decisions they felt gave them the very best chance of a gold medal.

I doubt that I 'leapt down your throat,' despite that being how you perceived my comments. You are speaking of Bradie and referring to comments in another thread out of context. I only recall having indicated that I felt Bradie was not too far behind Zagitova and Medvedeva PCS-wise, if Zag and Med were actually scored fairly on composition and interpretation. To my recollection, you took umbrage with what I said, and it went from there. Take away all the bells and whistles and pantomiming and posing from Zag and Med, and we would notice their immaturity more. In fact, if you look closely with a trained eye, like Tom Dickson has, then it's obvious where Zag and Med have some deficiencies both technically and artistically, although Zag is a bit stronger technically. In Bradie's case, she's very strong technically, but she needs help with music selection, and paying attention to her arm carriage and learning more about who she is and how to express the musical nuances, and learning how to hold out her moves more.

RE your last paragraph, I'm sure you realize that at every level it depends on the skater and their talent level and their goals, and their coaching environment, and their training, and a whole slew of factors. The other part of that is young athletes are still maturing and growing as people, so they may or may not even continue in the sport. Those who are committed and determined of course will focus on how many points they can achieve, but they are always working within what their abilities are, and what their specific goals are. There are many factors involved aside from just throwing things in a program for the points. There are a lot of subtleties involved in this conversation about points. A skater is not going to be successful if their focus is solely on points and on medals. They have to attend to all that comes before that first. And then over the course of a season (at the highest levels), skaters find out what may not be working, and they make adjustments throughout the season to their programs in order to maximize points, but also to ensure they can achieve their best performance.

The whole issue of what Dickson said has been taken out of context and exaggerated. He was specifically talking as a choreographer about wishing to see skaters hold out moves and understand musical nuances and not just throw up an arm or a leg for the points alone without paying attention to the music. He said as a viewer, that he is not engaged with a performance when he detects a skater is just doing a move without any thought to the music or to the performance, but solely for the points. That's Dickson's personal view and I agree with him. No one else has to.

 

[becca]

Alina spoke about things she needs to do prove. I have heard many say Med's skating skills improved. It is unfair to say these girls don't work or have motivation to do so.

I also find talking about integrity is unfair most skaters don't choreograph their own programs. I think too that they may like their programs and feels it artistry is subjective.

As for the whole intent behind the rule. Rule was to reward jumps back half says nothing about skater doing in last half.

Talking about integrity in sporting decision that is within the rules and I think the jump section for Alina is clever.

 

[lauravvv]

What, exactly, is so mature about a grown woman shimmying and throwing faux sass to "Hip Hip Chin Chin?"

And what would the appropriate age be for that, in your opinion? 15/16? 18? Or is it a matter of shimmying and being sassy not being appropriate for a figure skating program at all in your mind? So, what is it then - immature or too "vulgar" to be appropriate for anything, or something else ?

I am asking the same questions to the many people who liked your post.

 

[MacMadame]

I didn't like her post but I did find Alina's exhibition program to be a bit WTF? I think, for me, it was mostly the costume with the bare stripe curved all through it. It didn't show anything we don't normally show but it hinted that it might if you looked at the right time or hard enough. It was distracting and I could have done without it. Maybe instead, illusion on the mid-drift?

But I didn't overly object to the program because of her age so I'm probably not the person you wanted to respond.

 

[skateboy]

And what would the appropriate age be for that, in your opinion?

11.

 

[topaz]

LOL, has anyone here actually read Ashley comments from her twitter account during/after the skate?

Ashley wasn't disrespectful and folk need to toughen up a bit. Alina can't handle her skating/programs being critiqued but she's a competitive figure skater. Whatever.

Also, many in the skating community, fans coaches have commented on the backloading of the program.
Also, Ashley’s comments have been lamented by many many skating fans and those involved with the skating community. Alina Z’s pcs marks have been overscored the ENTIRE season, from her first senior competition onward.

My opinion is Russia made sure her pcs scores would be generous before the season started and as we’ve seen all season possibly at the expense of several Japanese skaters.

Also to those who say Alina has a good "line” , how you can tell. Most of her movements and choreography don't allow for anything to be extended or stretched. Also, just because the jumps are choreographed to be musical does not mean the skater has musicality. Alina does lack musicality in her overall skating. The music is expressed very little.

@IceAlisa - Lord I love your comments sometimes . ROFL.