Missing ladies at the Olympics since 1984

[olympic]

I played a game with numbers in Nagano: I supposed that the wonky 3F in Kwan’s LP dropped her mark to 5.7 on those 5 judges’ cards. I supposed she did a well executed flip and gave her straight 5.8s. It beats Tara. I guess she didn’t need a more complicated program. She just needed to skate with more freedom

 

[bardtoob]

A bit harsh commentating from Toller but true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42HsioxBGK8

I liked what Linda was going for.

To be honest, I think most of the criticism of Linda would have evaporated if she had had a better layback spin (or really had a layback spin instead of sideways leaning spin). Where was Evelyn Kramer, Cecilia Colledge, et al. back then!?!

As for Toller, his style does not hold up well today despite all the gushing at the time from Uncle Dick.

Sabre Dance in blue overalls with a red shirt now just looks like skating to Pee Wee's Big Adventure as Super Mario.

Toller Cranston 1975 Worlds SP

RIP Toller Cranston. Despite the flub on the combination this was still an electrifying performance of his iconic Sabre Dance during the short program at the...

www.youtube.com

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I hate to pick to pick on Linda again, but I have to disagree here too, LOL. Her short & small strokings on the ice at those World Pro events always bothered me. I'm sure it was due to years of skating on small ice for Disney, but Dorothy skated on small ice for decades too. Most of Linda's pro programs didn't do much for me, and she always wore flower on one side of her head. Again it also didn't help Linda that she directly competed as a pro against the likes of Dorothy Hamill, Denise Biellman and even Roz Sumners, who had more of an outgoing personality. I don't know if Linda ever won any of those pro competitions. She might have won one but never at Landover though. She didn't challenge herself technically as a pro either (usual jump content was split falling leaf-2t, 2s, 2f), but I did witness her warm up a 3toe during the technical portion at one of those Landover competitions; Of course she doubled it in the actual performance.

A bit harsh commentating from Toller but true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42HsioxBGK8

I have to admit that watching Linda at Lake Placid got me hooked on figure skating. Something about her back then totally captivated me. I have vague memory of watching Dorothy on TV and even saw her live in Ice Capade (in a yellow sleeveless dress bumping hips with the chorus boys!), but Dorothy back then didn't do anything for me like Linda did. However, when I now watch old utube videos of Linda's skating, I have no clue as to why she captivated me back then.

A shame you feel this way.

To me, Linda's technical programs to The King and I, The Trolley Song, and The Man With The Golden Arm, were all smart, outgoing and very sophisticated.

For as many years as I watched Linda compete at the World Pro in Landover, she always included a huge double axel in the technical portion of the event. Hamill, Sumners and Fratianne each had their own style, and the competition was better for it, IMO.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I played a game with numbers in Nagano: I supposed that the wonky 3F in Kwan’s LP dropped her mark to 5.7 on those 5 judges’ cards. I supposed she did a well executed flip and gave her straight 5.8s. It beats Tara. I guess she didn’t need a more complicated program. She just needed to skate with more freedom

Sadly, no coach and a fall on the triple flip probably cost Michelle gold in Salt Lake City as well.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

You have to wonder if Frau Mueller only owned one LP. My guess, is that it was probably The Best of Jerry Herman.

She loved her show tunes!

 

[floskate]

You have to wonder if Frau Mueller only owned one L. My guess, is that it was probably The Best of Jerry Herman.

She loved her show tunes!

And she loved a showgirl! Love Frau Muller

 

[olympic]

Sadly, no coach and a fall on the triple flip probably cost Michelle gold in Salt Lake City as well.

Oh Definitely. More than Nagano, the 2002 Olympic title was hers. The close marks w/ the fall on the 3F show that if she had just managed her Nationals performance without trying to up the tech ante, she would have won. In fact, her nationals performance would have won at Nagano in 1998 too. Maybe FC had a point

Back on topic from this massive thread drift (for which I'm also responsible), she was a missing lady in 2006, and I wonder how a performance to the Bells of Moscow in LP w. Tat consultations on raising levels in the new IJS system would have played out for Kwan vis a vis Arakawa, Cohen, and Slutskaya.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Gaby's retirement - for so long a source of much rumour - was finally discussed in Frau Muller's 90th birthday documentary, Die Eiskonigin aus Chemnitz (if you haven't watched it yet, you really should it is AMAZING!!!! Here it is with English subs - https://youtu.be/EhIUrkeMpNk )

Here's a preview.

 

[Coco]

Perhaps, but she has broken a toe on her left foot that took her out of the GPF and really bothered her on the toe loop (which is why they stayed as her last element because it was reportedly painful at that time to so and she wouldnt have the pain carrying through the rest of the program)

But yet in Nagano she switched back from 3flip in the SP to 3toe...hmmm

Well the 2 3loops WERE already enough at Nationals, right before the Olympics. Kwan won the free skate there by a landslide.

In Philadelphia, Lipinski had 'wonky' landings on her 3f and the 3s in her closing 3t..3s series and significantly underrotated the 2nd 3l in her 3l3l combo with a bobble. She skated MUCH better in Nagano.

Also, Nagano FS took place on a larger rink than Philadelphia, I believe. This highlighted Lipinski's speed. Lipinski also made a slight change to her pattern (before her 2nd 3z) and a few small choreographic changes that had an impact.

 

[Maximillian]

Here's a preview.

Those horses make me laugh every time!

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Toller was such a bitch!

Toller's hate towards Linda started when Bob Mackie refused to design for him.

 

[Marco]

In Philadelphia, Lipinski had 'wonky' landings on her 3f and the 3s in her closing 3t..3s series and significantly underrotated the 2nd 3l in her 3l3l combo with a bobble. She skated MUCH better in Nagano.

Alas in Nagano the wonky landings went to Kwan.

 

[tony]

Also remember Lipinski was 4th place after the short at Nationals, a short program in which Kwan was already getting showered with 6.0's. Tara skated before Michelle in the long, and I'm sure that judging panel wanted/expected the same greatness out of Michelle in the long to head into the Olympics. Giving Tara first in the long wasn't going to give her the overall win anyways. While she was the Champions Series Final champion, she wasn't exactly glowing in the regular season up to that point (lost to Kwan and Hubert).

And another reason why I like IJS better- none of this whole math game of controlling your own destiny or not controlling your destiny because of other skaters and their own performances, and skate order sometimes being so crucial.

 

[Marco]

And another reason why I like IJS better- none of this whole math game of controlling your own destiny or not controlling your destiny because of other skaters and their own performances, and skate order sometimes being so crucial.

Or ordinal flip flops.

Skate order is still kind influential to PCS and even GOEs, but of course in theory it doesn't have to be.

 

[martipellow2]

Agreed.

One of the few times I saw Sumners really attack her technical content was at Skate Canada in 1981. She went for 5 triples in her free skate.

In a just world, and I've said this a few times already, Elaine should have won gold in Sarejevo. Her routines really were the best.

I think she also did five triples at 1981 Skate America. Good jumper in her early days.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I think she also did five triples at 1981 Skate America. Good jumper in her early days.

I think I read somewhere that Sumners also had a practice triple lutz in her repertoire of skills.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

But yet in Nagano she switched back from 3flip in the SP to 3toe...hmmm

In Philadelphia, Lipinski had 'wonky' landings on her 3f and the 3s in her closing 3t..3s series and significantly underrotated the 2nd 3l in her 3l3l combo with a bobble. She skated MUCH better in Nagano.

Also, Nagano FS took place on a larger rink than Philadelphia, I believe. This highlighted Lipinski's speed. Lipinski also made a slight change to her pattern (before her 2nd 3z) and a few small choreographic changes that had an impact.

I think Kwan really miscalculated scaling back her SP from 3flip to 3toe. I could see a couple judges thinking "Kwan comes to the Olympics, waters down her program, and just expects to be GIFTED an Olympic Gold Medal for not even attempting her best? While Lipinski is going all out with EVERYTHING she has and taking a huge risk?" After Nationals, Lipinski could have scaled down to 3loop (or do a Kwan 3toe) in the SP, but she went for the 3flip knowing the last time she attempted it in a major competition she fell. The girl's got spunk. I'm sure then going into the LP, some judges wanted to crown an Olympic champion on the Olympic motto: Higher, Stronger, Faster. Higher? Neither's jumps were all that great or big. Stronger? Kwan skated rather cautiously and some say cowardly. Faster? Well, that goes to Lipinski by a mile. Lipinski reached for the brass ring and grabbed it. Kwan just expected to somehow be gifted that brass ring, or well the Olympic Gold Medal by taking zero risk. Lipinski skated like a champion, as much as I really didn't like her skating. But she was undeniably the skater of the event. And with risk come the spoils.

 

[VGThuy]

Kwan did the most triple jumps out any lady at any Olympics at that time and just so happened to lose to another skater who accomplished seven triples and with a 3/3 and a 3/1/3 and somehow Kwan is cowardly and took zero risks and had entitlement issues?. While skaters who did less than her ended up winning the Olympics before and even afterwards. Oh and the judges didn’t mind rewarding Kwan at Skate America with a triple toe in the SP. I think the issue was simply Tara skated the best she had all season at the Olympics and even she said she never skated that well. Kwan skated well but skated better before and
knew it. Tara, meanwhile, seemed like she had one of those once in a lifetime skates. They just gave it to the skater who they thought was better on the night and it turned out six of them thought Tara was better. For someone who felt entitled for gold, Kwan sure did a lot for that silver and even had to get over a broken toe, which I don’t think some of you actually understand.

 

[skateboy]

Kwan sure did a lot for that silver and even had to get over a broken toe, which I don’t think some of you actually understand.

Kwan definitely skated beautifully for a silver medal performance. The best silver medal performance ever skated by anyone in the ladies event, to my knowledge.

Was Kwan's broken toe on the left foot or the right foot?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I read somewhere that at Skate America 1997, Michelle actually landed the triple loop / triple loop in practice.

Lipinski, having seen her do it, said, "That's MY combination."

Too bad Michelle's injury prevented her from including her standard jump content in Nagano, and then some.

 

[RUKen]

Kwan - IF the US had 3 spots, would she have been sent to Lillehamer? Was the penultimate group a reach? She was old enough for Worlds, but was she age-eligible per IOC rules at the time?

I don't think anyone has addressed your question about Kwan's eligibility in 1994; I apologize if I'm repeating someone's response: Michelle Kwan was the alternate for the U.S. team that year, so she mush have been age-eligible. Because there was uncertainty about whether Nancy Kerrigan would be ready to skate in the competition, Kwan was sent to Lillehammer so that she could be substituted at the last minute. She did not get to skate, and the television coverage in the U.S. showed her watching from the seats.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm sorry Elaine Zayak wasn't sent to Lillehammer.

She was fabulous in Detroit and what a story it would have been if she had skated in Norway against her old rival, Katarina Witt.

 

[Marco]

I think Kwan really miscalculated scaling back her SP from 3flip to 3toe. I could see a couple judges thinking "Kwan comes to the Olympics, waters down her program, and just expects to be GIFTED an Olympic Gold Medal for not even attempting her best?

She had always been doing the solo 3toe since 1996. The reason she went for the flip at Nationals instead was that her doctor had ordered her to do no more than 1 3toe (and sal) per day at that time so she couldn't practice that jump as much to get the confidence / consistency she needed to do it in the short. When the Olympics rolled around a few weeks later her toe would have recovered more so she went back to her usual reliable jump - and she won the short with it over a clean Lipinski with a flip anyways.

A more realistic miscalculation in going back to the toe was that it probably meant she wasn't practising the flip as much. She had admitted that after the shaky flip landing in the free, she became cautious and lost the magic. For me anyways, Kwan would still have won with the overall tentative skate over Lipinski's energetic outing if they had swapped skate order. Lipinski skating late and especially after Bonaly gave her a very helpful push on the second mark.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Oh I agree that Kwan skated an OGM worthy skate. And yes she did win the SP at Olys. But I really think Kwan lost her aura when she scaled back to only a 3toe in the SP. Her performances at Nationals were otherworldly, even to me. Her SP there had so much build up. First time since Worlds 1995 that she attempted 3flip in the short. ABC already showed us her practicing it in practice and falling so we were nervous that she'd miss it and so I thought when she went for it that it was courageous. And admirable. And then BAM she hits it and the performance took to a whole new level. So when she went to Olys I think people were expecting that MAGIC. She had zero magic in Nagano. I think it was her other-worldly performances in Philly that came back to haunt her. Especially her SP, because we all knew she was coming off an injury and how totally brave she was to go for the 3flip. And we all went crazy when she landed it. But then, come Nagano, she no longer was injured, yet she still watered her SP down. It was a letdown. The opposite of courageous. And admirable. At least it was for me, and I really don't think I am the only person who felt that. Including judges. I'm not slamming Kwan, I much prefer her skating to Lipinski.

 

[floskate]

Frank was never agout taking any risks. Wasn't she having massive practice issues with the flip in teh short at Nationals? In competition she landed a beauty but I remember reading somewhere that she was falling a lot in practice on it - maybe in Brennan's book? Anyway, perhaps by Nagano she had healed enough to do more reps of the toeloop and perhaps they didn't want to risk any impression of inconsistency in practices by falling on teh flip or add any undue pressure etc.

 

[honey]

Frank was never agout taking any risks. Wasn't she having massive practice issues with the flip in teh short at Nationals? In competition she landed a beauty but I remember reading somewhere that she was falling a lot in practice on it - maybe in Brennan's book? Anyway, perhaps by Nagano she had healed enough to do more reps of the toeloop and perhaps they didn't want to risk any impression of inconsistency in practices by falling on teh flip or add any undue pressure etc.

Yes, her “crashing to the ice” on the flip in practice at nationals 1998 was talked about in Brennan’s book.

Seeing as she didn’t even upgrade to a flip as the solo jump until end of the season in 99/00 (only started at worlds), I don’t really think they had serious consideration of ever doing the flip in Nagano. She only did so at nationals due to the injury that prevented her from doing toes more than once a day.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Yes, her “crashing to the ice” on the flip in practice at nationals 1998 was talked about in Brennan’s book.

Seeing as she didn’t even upgrade to a flip as the solo jump until end of the season in 99/00 (only started at worlds), I don’t really think they had serious consideration of ever doing the flip in Nagano. She only did so at nationals due to the injury that prevented her from doing toes more than once a day.

Her watering down her SP compared to her competitions for so many years was disappointing. I think it helped Bute and Slute and others gain their reputation. If Kwan from 1996 on had been doing 3flip in the SP, she would have cemented her distance from the field, and her competitors would have needed to really work on their second mark. Instead, we saw cautious Kwan winning while being out jumped for years. Eventually it became boring.

 

[olympic]

I stumbled across Nagano LPs from JPN TV on YouTube a couple of months ago and watched the top 5 ladies. It was a different watch for me because the image was sharper and filmed from a different area of the rink. One memory I have is that the sharper image showed that Kwan skated noticeably bigger than Lipinski (not necessarily faster) meaning more lift and such. I never noticed that over the many years I replayed and watched different videos. I really think it was a jump ball between the 2 of them. It may be correct to assume that skating order may have played a role but it would have been fascinating to see Kwan probably skate with a 3-3 or even just nailing the elements -> giving her confidence to have another Nationals style performance and probably winning

 

[VGThuy]

Granted a cautious Kwan would still be 6 triples completed in average. Five triples was a bad day for her.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Granted a cautious Kwan would still be 6 triples completed in average. Five triples was a bad day for her.

I totally agree. I felt she deservedly won 2003 Worlds with no 3/3 and I think only 6 triples over Sokolova who had two 3/3s. Her skating was that much better. But would I have felt that way at an Olympics? I'm not sure. The Olympics to me is the ultimate achievement. Much much more than Worlds. I guess I want to see people skating their 100% best at the Olympics. To scale down and go cautious for the Olys kind of defeats what I value in the event. It would be similar to if Alyona skates clean without attempting a 3axel while Sasha goes for her quads. I much prefer Alyona to Sasha, and in any event except the Olympics I would be fine with Alyona winning. But if Sasha comes out at the Olympics and hits her program I'd give it to her. Of course with COP the math would do the job and not just depend on the "feelings" of the panel on that day. I really hope Sasha goes to the Olympics over Alyona because she could absolutely demolish the field if she's clean. Of course she never is, but Sarah Hughes never landed two 3/3s in one program until the Olympics either. All it takes is hitting at the right moment. An "Olympic moment". It's just my opinion.