Missing ladies at the Olympics since 1984

olympic

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I love Jan too and he gets a lot of flack on my youtube channel from people who don't appreciate him. It was his misfortune to skate in an era that not only gave us Robin Cousins, but John Curry and Toller Cranston. Sure he wasn't graceful, but I've always maintained that Jan was the most complete skater of the late 70's across all three phases of the competition. Great figures, almost always reliable in the short and potentially 5 triples (lutz, loop, sal, toe, toe) in the long. People forget that had the factored placements system (brought in for the 1981 season to try and combat the blatant manipulation of total points in the 70's) been used in Lake Placid, it is Jan and not Robin who would have won.

Fratianne.......her skating just stagnated after 1977.

Do you have any opinion on Charlie Tickner? He seemed to be in the middle of Robin and Jan; Jan-Charlie-Robin in figures, but I always thought Charlie had stronger SS than Jan. If he hadn’t made that mistake in the SP at Lake Placid, would he have been in contention for the OGM??
 

floskate

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Do you have any opinion on Charlie Tickner? He seemed to be in the middle of Robin and Jan; Jan-Charlie-Robin in figures, but I always thought Charlie had stronger SS than Jan. If he hadn’t made that mistake in the SP at Lake Placid, would he have been in contention for the OGM??

I always have enjoyed his skating but he was not a great SP skater. He bombed the SP combo at 1979 Worlds, (to be fair so did just about everyone else apart from Vladimir Kovalev & Scott Cramer), 1980 Olympics and 1980 Worlds. The men's event in 1977 - 1980 is so interesting because the judging is all over the place. Robin was of course the world's best free skater but his figures were such a liability and he had a lot of knee injuries (1977 Worlds), Jan never got great artistic marks and did make the odd SP error which cost him a title or two. kovalev was always there or thereabouts with good figures and usually a solid SP then a really boring LP. Charlie kind of slipped through the pack to the 1978 World title - that was a surprise victory - and that kept him in the running for Lake Placid. Sure he had better skating skills and was a better spinner than Jan, but when you watch 1980 and you see Charlie's SP and LP compared to others and well, lets just say I think third in the free was a tad generous.
 

bardtoob

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Sure he had better skating skills and was a better spinner than Jan, but when you watch 1980 and you see Charlie's SP and LP compared to others and well, lets just say I think third in the free was a tad generous.

At least Charlie went for the 3Lz in the 1980 Olympic LP. Also, I do not think Charlie was going to get better than a bronze no matter how he skated. The scoring in the men's event was insanity. Jan scored the most point but came in second.

I like Charlie's 1980 World LP because you can tell he likes skating.
 

bardtoob

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Jan screwed poor Nancy over in 1994 though :p

Poor Jan drank the Kool Aide he had been served after the freeskate that everybody refused, then served it to Nancy. "You lost because, despite being technically superior, you were not artistic enough."

Fratianne.......her skating just stagnated after 1977.

I though she was stunning in her 1979 SP, but that could have been the nose job, which I was surprised was openly talked about by Jim McKay during the ABC broadcast.
 
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VGThuy

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Sorry to go back to Jan Hoffmann, but were the six years between his world titles the longest break between world titles in figure skating history?
 

tony

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Sorry to go back to Jan Hoffmann, but were the six years between his world titles the longest break between world titles in figure skating history?

There was a Finnish pairs team who had World Championship wins 9 years apart, largely because of WW1 cancelations so it's a bit different. Fritz Kachler of Austria won 10 years apart, with the same WW1 break.
 

Maximillian

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I would have had Poetzch ahead of Fratianne in the FS in Lake Placid, they both had two triples and there wasn't much to separate them apart from Anett seeming to be aware that there was an audience. I'm of two minds about Anett in the SP, because I just don't think there was enough depth in the field to justify her placing her lower than she already was, but a 2R/2t was a pretty feeble combo.
 

bardtoob

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I'm of two minds about Anett in the SP, because I just don't think there was enough depth in the field to justify her placing her lower than she already was, but a 2R/2t was a pretty feeble combo.

@floskate and I were just talking about this. There is footage Anett doing a 3S-2Lp earlier in her career, so we don't know why she didn't use it in 1980.


( :blocjudge Ignore Annett talking about stuffing her bra . . .)
 

olympic

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I would have had Poetzch ahead of Fratianne in the FS in Lake Placid, they both had two triples and there wasn't much to separate them apart from Anett seeming to be aware that there was an audience. I'm of two minds about Anett in the SP, because I just don't think there was enough depth in the field to justify her placing her lower than she already was, but a 2R/2t was a pretty feeble combo.

IIRC, Annett bailed on a 3S then landed a clean one later. Were there 2??
 

essence_of_soy

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IIRC, Annett bailed on a 3S then landed a clean one later. Were there 2??

Watch Annett's free skate from the 1980 European Championships. For all intents and purposes, it looks like Frau Mueller set out her program to include three triple jumps. (I believe she bailed out of the first salchow attempt.)

Had she included all three triples in Lake Placid, I think her victory would have been far less contentious.

 

floskate

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Tickner's free skate at the 1980 World Championships, his eligible swan song, was fabulous. His professional skating was sublime, too.

Pretty much everyone was fabulous that night. 1980 World's men's free skate was an incredible competition!
 

orbitz

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I though she was stunning in her 1979 SP, but that could have been the nose job, which I was surprised was openly talked about by Jim McKay during the ABC broadcast.

SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6VnOj0NJmY
Well the dress was nice. I guess the program looked nice in its time, but now I just see someone plowing through a program to get the elements done. The footwork was way too simple for a top level skater. A smile here or there would've helped her presentation too.

LP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3cdI6kArJ0
Don't care for the LP at all. And the costume was just way too much bling for its time; It would've fit in perfectly in the 90's among those Lauren Sheehan (?) costumes though.

Fratianne's skating hasn't aged well, IMO. It was unfortunate for Linda that she came immediately after Dorothy Hamill, so the contrast between their skating and presentation skills were very obvious. But Frank Carroll should shoulder all of the blame for Linda's skating not progressing beyond her stunning performance at the 76 Nationals.
 

bardtoob

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Fratianne's skating hasn't aged well, IMO. It was unfortunate for Linda that she came immediately after Dorothy Hamill, so the contrast between their skating and presentation skills were very obvious.

An ageing Gus Lussi, when interviewed by Uncle Dick leading up to the 1980 Olympics, openly criticized Fratianne's freeskating. In particular, he would have preferred her sit spin to be more upright like Dorothy's, whom he had trained in Lake Placid. However, Lussi conceded she was the best the US had at the time.


Linda was a perennial favorite at Nationals and Worlds for some reason. I assume it was the then rare combination of "actual" good figures and good triples, although she was clearly an introvert on and off the ice. Frank, himself, during the TLS interview, conceded that Linda probably could have kept up with Michelle Kwan technically but not in presentation; Linda was his "best student".

I will say, it is easy to recognize items that one might check off under the current judging system; she demonstrates difficult entries into jumps from steps, transitions, skating skills, execution, and has the expected list of jump, step **, and spin types. B+/A-

LP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3cdI6kArJ0
Don't care for the LP at all. And the costume was just way too much bling for its time; It would've fit in perfectly in the 90's among those Lauren Sheehan (?) costumes though.

I find it entertaining that in the video you referenced, Linda is consciously explaining her efforts to have good presentation, like a good student :D . . . there is nothing natural about it.


It is hard to listen to Uncle Dick try to pull out comments about presentation from Linda after she skated when Linda makes rather matter of fact comments and looks down, like an introvert.


* Frank's students were never the best spinners, but I think he heard Gus Lussi's critique because Michelle Kwan sure had a good back position during her sit spins.

** It is funny to think that steps did not include turns back then :rofl:
 
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floskate

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SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6VnOj0NJmY
Well the dress was nice. I guess the program looked nice in its time, but now I just see someone plowing through a program to get the elements done. The footwork was way too simple for a top level skater. A smile here or there would've helped her presentation too.

LP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3cdI6kArJ0
Don't care for the LP at all. And the costume was just way too much bling for its time; It would've fit in perfectly in the 90's among those Lauren Sheehan (?) costumes though.

Fratianne's skating hasn't aged well, IMO. It was unfortunate for Linda that she came immediately after Dorothy Hamill, so the contrast between their skating and presentation skills were very obvious. But Frank Carroll should shoulder all of the blame for Linda's skating not progressing beyond her stunning performance at the 76 Nationals.

It's the packaging. Her dresses were beautiful but if you're going to dress her like Ethel Merman, don't skate to Carmen, skate to Mame and camp it up and shimmy and show us a jazz hand or two! I think Frank couldn't see the wood from the trees with her. Waaaaay too emotionally involved and that really clouded his judgement in terms of where her skating could have gone. I mean look at her double axel - it is AMAZING! So why did they not push her technical content and put everyone else out of reach that way? Clearly Linda was capable of SO much more. Anyone who started so late and got that good that quick had fantastic talent. So why settle for exactly what Anett could do and risk what panel of judges were drawn for whatever event?
 

VGThuy

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I remember Frank saying the difference between Kwan and Fratianne was that if he told them to go all the way to the highest row of a set of bleachers and then jump down, Fratianne would just do it without question while Kwan would climb up the stairs, then think about then climb back down and ask Frank why he’s telling her to do it, then he’d explain. Then Kwan would ponder it some more and then climb up the stairs and do it.
 

bardtoob

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I think it was a mistake for Linda to reuse the costume and program from the 1979 Worlds at the 1980 Olympics.


The judges were not sold because they left too much room for Annett, which was a clear sign.
 

Maximillian

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I think it was a mistake for Linda to reuse the costume and program from the 1979 Worlds at the 1980 Olympics.

When I was a kid there was one of those small athlete biographies aimed at kids about Fratianne in our school library and I read it several times and IIRC, Linda was veeeeerrrrrry superstitious and had all sorts of good luck charms and rituals, so it's not a surprise that she reused the costume/program for the Olympics that had won her Worlds the previous year.

Just rewatched Poetzch's LP from Lake Placid again and while it's not the greatest thing I've ever seen there really is very little difference in terms of content and choreo between her and Linda and Anett had just a bit more charisma and sold Funny Girl a bit more. Have to say, my favorite moment in the program is right after she lands her second triple (3S) at the end of the program and does a jaunty shoulder shimmy, it's very cute and sort of a proto-Kat Witt moment.
 

olympic

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Linda used Carmen in 79 and 80 because she did not want to change music. FC wanted ‘Sleeping Beauty’ for her Olympic year but Linda said she was superstitious and wanted to keep Carmen.

I think to a large degree Linda did not progress technically from day 1977 was because of FC. You saw the same issue with Kwan: Hold back on the jumps and do enough to win but it’s too risky to do harder jumps
 

Taso

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Yeah. Good point! It wasn’t a good strategy with Kwan in 1998. I wonder if a 3T-3T instead of 2 3 loops would have made a difference
Perhaps, but she has broken a toe on her left foot that took her out of the GPF and really bothered her on the toe loop (which is why they stayed as her last element because it was reportedly painful at that time to so and she wouldnt have the pain carrying through the rest of the program)
 

essence_of_soy

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Yeah. Good point! It wasn’t a good strategy with Kwan in 1998. I wonder if a 3T-3T instead of 2 3 loops would have made a difference

Not that Christine Brennan's book is anything to go by, but apparently at Skate America in 1997, Tara was shocked to see Michelle landing 'her combination' in practice. That of course being, a triple loop/triple loop.

Wouldn't that have been something if Michelle had included it at the Olympics in Nagano.
 

essence_of_soy

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I too, would have loved to see Linda do so much more with her eligible skating.

From boosting her technical content (apparently she could do triples other than the toe and sal in practice) as well as giving her artistry that didn't feel so by the numbers.

That a close relative was Henry Mancini, he even offered to compose special music for her, which incredibly, was turned down!!!!

I wonder if Linda had gone to Carlo and Christa Fassi, what they could have done with her.

If nothing else, it was nice to see Fratianne come into her own as a professional. She developed into a fine show skater.
 

orbitz

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If nothing else, it was nice to see Fratianne come into her own as a professional. She developed into a fine show skater.

I hate to pick to pick on Linda again, but I have to disagree here too, LOL. Her short & small strokings on the ice at those World Pro events always bothered me. I'm sure it was due to years of skating on small ice for Disney, but Dorothy skated on small ice for decades too. Most of Linda's pro programs didn't do much for me, and she always wore flower on one side of her head. Again it also didn't help Linda that she directly competed as a pro against the likes of Dorothy Hamill, Denise Biellman and even Roz Sumners, who had more of an outgoing personality. I don't know if Linda ever won any of those pro competitions. She might have won one but never at Landover though. She didn't challenge herself technically as a pro either (usual jump content was split falling leaf-2t, 2s, 2f), but I did witness her warm up a 3toe during the technical portion at one of those Landover competitions; Of course she doubled it in the actual performance.

A bit harsh commentating from Toller but true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42HsioxBGK8

I have to admit that watching Linda at Lake Placid got me hooked on figure skating. Something about her back then totally captivated me. I have vague memory of watching Dorothy on TV and even saw her live in Ice Capade (in a yellow sleeveless dress bumping hips with the chorus boys!), but Dorothy back then didn't do anything for me like Linda did. However, when I now watch old utube videos of Linda's skating, I have no clue as to why she captivated me back then.
 

Marco

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Yeah. Good point! It wasn’t a good strategy with Kwan in 1998. I wonder if a 3T-3T instead of 2 3 loops would have made a difference

Well the 2 3loops WERE already enough at Nationals, right before the Olympics. Kwan won the free skate there by a landslide.
 

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