Missing ladies at the Olympics since 1984

[Marco]

1994 - If Kwan had gone in 1994, she could possibly have finished around 10th - 15th given she placed 8th at Worlds which did not have the Olympic medalists and Witt.

1998 - Szewczenko missing the big one after she aced the CSF 1997 at home was such a shame. Then again, she almost always stood up on her triples and it's just a matter of whether the landing was on 1 foot or 2 foot. I see her around 6th to 8th if she was her usual self with 1 to 2 2foots. If she skated like at the CSF then she could definitely contend for bronze. For me though, the way she skated at the CSF was more like an exception rather than the rule.

1998 - Ito. She had attempted to come back in 1996 in anticipation of the 1998 Olympics in Japan. If her comeback had been more successful and she had actually skated in Nagano, I don't know how she would place. My gut feeling is a definite top ten but nowhere near top 5.

2002 - Arakawa was an interesting case. Her debut version of Turandot was amazing and she actually skated better than Onda did at her other GP events. She missed out to Onda simply due to GP draws giving Onda an easy pass to GPF. Given that she was averaging 5 to 6 triples that season per free skate I think she can definitely crack top ten.

2006 - Kwan. Arakawa won with 5 triples. Cohen placed 2nd with 5 triples and 2 big stumbles. Slute placed 3rd with 4 triples and 1 fall. Suguri placed 4th with 5 triples and lesser spins. A healthy Kwan with 5ish triples could definitely medal, but only on condition that she had been healthy all season and actually got to compete under COP and tweaked her programs / elements accordingly. She was horribly under-prepared for COP at 2005 Worlds and lost out a medal because of that. I believe she was working with Lakernik and Tarasova that season to make herself COP ready. What I would give to see her skate to that program.

2006 - Asada / Kim. Given how mediocre the technical content were from the top 4, I think Asada and Kim could definitely be in medal position if they were old enough to compete in Turin.

2010 - Nakano. I supported sending Suzuki in 2010. She was more of a complete package than Nakano was. Nakano was way over-burdened by her jumping technique, and in an era where jump rotations were studied so closely. If Nakano had gone, she would probably have placed near the low end of the top ten, or even lower if the caller was stricter.

2010 - Wagner. It's a shame she couldn't go. She had her technical issues but so did Flatt, and she was so much more watchable. If she had gone, she would probably have placed near but below Suzuki (bottom half of top ten).

2014 - Nagasu. Probably below Wagner, around where Edmunds placed.

2018 - Wagner. I see an inspired Lalaland placing Wagner around 7th.

 

[olympic]

I think once the American women swept at 1991 Worlds and then the three American women placing in the top 4 in Albertville, there wasn't anything really inspiring any talk about Trenary.

She was solid with the 3F at both 1990 Nationals and Worlds. I do recall that she stated in an interview in 1991 that she was going to work on a 3Z

The injury keeping her out of 1991 Nationals was pretty serious and that may have affected her later performances. I don’t know.

Kerrigan made the 1991 team with an imperfect LP. I think she had 4 clean triples. Could a healthy Trenary have beaten that? And Harding’s programs were pretty bad at 1992 Nationals. Could a healthy Trenary have beaten that?

 

[Maximillian]

Love me some Jill! After Chin dropped out of the race in '87, Jill became my favorite and all these years later, only Sasha has surpassed her in terms of all time faves. Her LP at '88 Nationals is one of my favorite programs ever and I was sad to see her get burned by the judges in the SP (as was Kadavy) at Calgary--and basically taken out of the running--over Witt, Thomas and Manley who all had easier combos.

As was said, Jill was out for the '91 season with injury, also her coach, Carlo Faasi moved back to Italy IIRC for health reasons, though he eventually moved back to the States. I prefer to do my 'what if' with Jill in relation to had she not gotten injured in '90-'91. Clearly she wouldn't have beaten Harding or Yama at Nationals '91, but she would still have had enough 'clout' politically as reigning World Champion to bump Kerrigan had she done her standard four triple program. In 1992 I don't think she would have had too much problems knocking out an out of shape Harding and potentially Kerrigan for a 2-3 finish at Nats. Again, the jump content Kerrigan and Harding planned was infrequently delivered, as evidenced by their LPs in Albertville, so a bronze medal wasn't out of the question for Trenary.

 

[Erin]

I think once the American women swept at 1991 Worlds and then the three American women placing in the top 4 in Albertville, there wasn't anything really inspiring any talk about Trenary.

While I agree, the ladies competition in 1992 was so poor that Trenary in top form with two clean skates could have made the podium. And given how poorly Harding skated at Nationals, it would not have been out of the question for her to make the team. And I’m sure USFS would have been happy to dump Harding off the team if someone like Trenary had been able to step up. Now to be clear, I’m talking about her having the triple flip in the SP and skating a clean FP, and those two things didn’t happen that many times in Trenary’s career. And as others have noted, she was nowhere near her peak form leading up to Albertville. But in a “what if” scenario, it isn’t as crazy as it might first appear.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Denise Biellmann, I'm afraid, had the opposite issue in the pro world: she was undervalued and underscored

YUP! I didnt understand how Denise wasnt winning all of those competitios... it was mind boggling.. and she was also a fast skater.....

Best shape of anyone.... male, women, them, they.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Though she struggled in the free skate at the 1992 US Midwestern Sectionals (which she won), I believe Jill skated a clean short program which included a triple flip/double toe loop combination.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

YUP! I didnt understand how Denise wasnt winning all of those competitios... it was mind boggling.. and she was also a fast skater.....

Best shape of anyone.... male, women, them, they.

I have to wonder how much political clout Scott Hamilton had. He had executive production rights with Stars On Ice, and I guess having team members like Rosalyn Summers and Debi Thomas do well at the World Pro and Challenge of Champions, meant better ticket sales.

Pure speculation, of course.

Biellmann was a total boss, and the fact she made everything look so easy, was a credit to her. Interestingly, she won more competitions against US skaters in Europe than she did in North America.

One of my favourite skates from Denise was her win at the 1990 Challenge of Champions in Moscow.

Denise Biellmann 1990 World Challenge Of Champions

Le Jazz Hot from Victor Victoria

www.youtube.com

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

While I agree, the ladies competition in 1992 was so poor that Trenary in top form with two clean skates could have made the podium. And given how poorly Harding skated at Nationals, it would not have been out of the question for her to make the team. And I’m sure USFS would have been happy to dump Harding off the team if someone like Trenary had been able to step up. Now to be clear, I’m talking about her having the triple flip in the SP and skating a clean FP, and those two things didn’t happen that many times in Trenary’s career. And as others have noted, she was nowhere near her peak form leading up to Albertville. But in a “what if” scenario, it isn’t as crazy as it might first appear.

I was at the 1992 US National Championships.

What I found interesting is that both Tonya and Nancy had very good practices.

Nancy looked loose and relaxed, but it was clear that the pressure was getting to her prior to the free skate. She really tightened up.

Tonya had excellent practices until she hurt her ankle after a bad landing on the triple axel. How she was able to tough it out and skate still defies explanation. A shame really, because her free program at Skate America 1991 is an all-time classic.

Tonya Harding (USA) - 1991 Skate America, Ladies' Free Skate.

Finishing 1st before Kristie Yamaguchi ! Tonya Lands a huge triple Axel and performs amazing the rest of the program.

www.youtube.com

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Here is Denise in exhibition at the 2011 European Championships in Bern, Switzerland, 30 years after winning the title in 1981.

Europei Berna 2011 GALA -2- Denise BIELLMANN 30/01/2011

TUTTO in sezione SKATING de La Riserva forum http://lariserva.forumcommunity.net

www.youtube.com

I thought it was exciting and fateful that Sarah Meier, also from Switzerland, won the ladies' event in 2011, too.

 

[skatesindreams]

Denise was invited to skate in the Gala by the ISU, as a special guest.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Denise was invited to skate in the Gala by the ISU, as a special guest.

How wonderful for her and the Swiss audience. Denise skated beautifully, too.

 

[skatesindreams]

How wonderful for her and the Swiss audience. Denise skated beautifully, too.

Even now, her program brings me to tears.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Here is Denise in exhibition at the 2011 European Championships in Bern, Switzerland, 30 years after winning the title in 1981.

Europei Berna 2011 GALA -2- Denise BIELLMANN 30/01/2011

TUTTO in sezione SKATING de La Riserva forum http://lariserva.forumcommunity.net

www.youtube.com

I thought it was exciting and fateful that Sarah Meier, also from Switzerland, won the ladies' event in 2011, too.

Thanks for sharing that. That was incredible!!

 

[floskate]

Biellmann's longevity was fantastic and she was way more consistent as a pro so if you bear that in mind maybe I'm doing her a disservice and she would have become a better competitor in amateur competition. Her versatility as a pro skater was also wonderful.

 

[skatesindreams]

I think that Denise's judging during her amateur career was influenced by the fact that she didn't fit the "pretty princess" mold.
Yes, she was graceful; she was also an athlete.
Her skating reflected that sensibility.

 

[Triple loop]

I totally agree that Rosalynn Sumners was overrated by the USFSA. In 1983, it should have supported Zayak and Chin. Elaine skated pretty well at the ‘83 Nationals but was out of breath at the Nationals the next year because she was recovering from her ankle injury. She proved that she could still do her triples at the Olympics and medal at Worlds. I believe Elaine and Tiffany were placed low in the compulsory figures so they couldn’t threaten the top 3. Rosalynn’s scores were way too high at the Olympics for her flawed programs.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I totally agree that Rosalynn Sumners was overrated by the USFSA. In 1983, it should have supported Zayak and Chin. Elaine skated pretty well at the ‘83 Nationals but was out of breath at the Nationals the next year because she was recovering from her ankle injury. She proved that she could still do her triples at the Olympics and medal at Worlds. I believe Elaine and Tiffany were placed low in the compulsory figures so they couldn’t threaten the top 3. Rosalynn’s scores were way too high at the Olympics for her flawed programs.

Agreed.

One of the few times I saw Sumners really attack her technical content was at Skate Canada in 1981. She went for 5 triples in her free skate.

In a just world, and I've said this a few times already, Elaine should have won gold in Sarejevo. Her routines really were the best.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Out of interest, I am wondering how Elaine Zayak would have placed if she had skated at the 1994 Winter Olympics.

Using Witt as a marker, I would guess if Elaine had skated on par with her performances at US Nationals, she may have placed anywhere between 6th and 10th.

 

[Vagabond]

I totally agree that Rosalynn Sumners was overrated by the USFSA. In 1983, it should have supported Zayak and Chin. Elaine skated pretty well at the ‘83 Nationals but was out of breath at the Nationals the next year because she was recovering from her ankle injury. She proved that she could still do her triples at the Olympics and medal at Worlds. I believe Elaine and Tiffany were placed low in the compulsory figures so they couldn’t threaten the top 3. Rosalynn’s scores were way too high at the Olympics for her flawed programs.

Elaine Zayak lost part of one of her feet in a childhood accident. Her parents put into figure skating in response to that accident, but the injury left her at a disadvantage in some of the compulsory figures. Although someone like @floskate would be more knowledgeable than I, my understanding was that Zayak's low marks in figures, when they happened, were due more to her disability than unfair judging.

Tiffany Chin's small physique in her first two seasons in international Senior competition also left her at a disadvantage in figures. I lurves me some Tiffany Chin, but I doubt that either Zayak or she was treated unfairly in the scoring of compulsory figures in 1983.

This discussion brings to mind someone who perhaps should be considered a "missing lady" for the 1984 Winter Olympics: Vikki de Vries, who, in her day, earned gold medals at Skate America, Skate Canada, and Nebelhorn and finished seventh in her only World Championships. It is a pity that injuries brought her competitive career to an end.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

This discussion brings to mind someone who perhaps should be considered a "missing lady" for the 1984 Winter Olympics: Vikki de Vries, who, in her day, earned gold medals at Skate America, Skate Canada, and Nebelhorn and finished seventh in her only World Championships. It is a pity that injuries brought her competitive career to an end.

Vicki was a buzz saw at Skate Canada '82. Attack. Attack. Attack.

She used her jumping skills to advantage before the Zayak Rule was brought in as well. I believe that particular program included 5 or 6 triples.

I think had SHE won US Nationals in 1983, that the World Title could have been a serious possibility.

 

[VGThuy]

All I know is that I am in love with the "Amazing Grace" section of Sumner's 1984 LP, and I don't mind that she was a "pretty princess", a term I'm not really a fan of when describing skaters.

 

[Triple loop]

I still find it strange that Chin and Zayak were 12th and 13th after figures at the 1984 Olympics. Zayak had placed 4th in figures in 1982 even with her problematic left foot. That was an amazing feat. Also, Chin was in 2nd place after figures at the 1985 Worlds. Kind of odd that someone could improve so drastically in one year.

 

[floskate]

Elaine Zayak lost part of one of her feet in a childhood accident. Her parents put into figure skating in response to that accident, but the injury left her at a disadvantage in some of the compulsory figures. Although someone like @floskate would be more knowledgeable than I, my understanding was that Zayak's low marks in figures, when they happened, were due more to her disability than unfair judging.

I think it was more to do with which foot was drawn to compete the figures on. Sandra Stevenson once wrote that even though skaters were expected to be equally adept on each foot, most skaters were much happier if the right foot was drawn. That meant that two of the three figures would lead off on the right foot. Zayak's injury was to her left foot and if the left foot was drawn then it would make sense to assume that it would put her at a distinct disadvantage on two of the three figures. If you look at her figures placements from 1980 to 1984 at Worlds she went from 22th to 7th to 4th then withdrew in 1983 due to injury and then 9th in Ottawa. In Sarajevo she was 13th. But I don't know which foot was drawn for which championship to test that theory.

 

[Spun Silver]

Someone should email and ask her... or interview her.

 

[bardtoob]

I don't mind that she was a "pretty princess", a term I'm not really a fan of when describing skaters.

But Roz was the stereotypical Ice Princess, gorgeous but cold. She always seemed irritated, like she was a moment away from complaining to management.

Unfortunately for Roz, Katarina was gorgeous, cold and couldn't stand not being the center of attention. I don't think Katarina ever skated "to do her best", I think she skated "to show everybody that she was better than everybody else".

 

[bardtoob]

Maybe but Tiffany Chin had heavy support from a powerful fed, so even if Ito could outjump her, she was just beginning to build international credibility, and I think Chin would have survived on the 2nd mark and a heavy advantage in figures IMO

These two had an interesting history. Chin won Jr. Worlds in 1981 by placing 8th in figures and 2nd in the SP and LP. In the LP, Midori placed 1st.*

* I don't know how Midori did in the SP, but the skate order was against her because she was 20th in figures.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I think it was more to do with which foot was drawn to compete the figures on. Sandra Stevenson once wrote that even though skaters were expected to be equally adept on each foot, most skaters were much happier if the right foot was drawn. That meant that two of the three figures would lead off on the right foot. Zayak's injury was to her left foot and if the left foot was drawn then it would make sense to assume that it would put her at a distinct disadvantage on two of the three figures. If you look at her figures placements from 1980 to 1984 at Worlds she went from 22th to 7th to 4th then withdrew in 1983 due to injury and then 9th in Ottawa. In Sarajevo she was 13th. But I don't know which foot was drawn for which championship to test that theory.

Politics made the sport more messy thirty - five years ago, than it is now.

I am reminded of a brief interview with one of her coaches, Marilyn Gelderman, who said when Elaine found favor with the judges, she placed 4th. When she didn't, she was thirteenth. Gelderman was then asked where she thought Elaine should have placed on both those occasions. Her answer: seventh.

 

[olympic]

Interesting retrospective about US Ladies in the 81-84 era. I did not remember Roz going for 5 triples at 81 SC or Vikki de Vries doing the same. Were they all 3 Sals and Toes? I did not include Vikki because she went to Worlds once in 1982 and was the 3rd place American. I always thought Zayak with improved artistry was underscored at 83 Nationals, while Roz won with a fall in the LP, the judges giving her straight 5.9s.

 

[olympic]

How about the ladies in my post that haven’t gotten a mention-

Caryn Kadavy in 1988: I always got the impression she was getting the short end of the stick in favor of Trenary. Both coached by Fassi. Hmm. In her TSL interview, she stated she could do a 3F, so why did her coaches not allow her to put it in??

Grossmann in 1992: She was good in the LP usually and a pupil of Jutta Mueller. In 1992, beyond the 3 US ladies and Ito, it was wide open; not many ladies had the full array of triples at that time, so she seemed like a good candidate for a 5-8 place finish in Albertville. Did she suffer the reunification of Germany? I heard that the merging of the 2 skating unions was not too smooth.

ETA - Markova and Queen Bute in 1994. Their Euro finishes indicated that they could have easily slid into the final group after the SP in Lillehammer, just behind Bonaly but ahead of Szewczenko, who did not have a Lutz and Witt. I don’t think they would’ve screwed with the podium but who knows what path that may have put Bute on leading up to Nagano and SLC

 

[VGThuy]

Kadavy gave my favorite skate at the 1987 Worlds LP. I never understood Trenary's appeal.