I, Tonya

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Nancy has sometimes said in interviews that her career will always be remembered and associated with the attack. After all, she was also a US Champion, and a two - time Olympic medallist.

I wonder if the assault had never happened, how well she would actually be remembered for her skating.

 

[cmk]

I want to see the movie but I don't want to go all the way to Cleveland or Columbus to do so. Kwan was undermarked due to just being up from juniors and for being only 12 in 93. The judges apparently wanted her to "pay her dues". Nancy skated just as badly as everyone else and shouldn't of been first in the free.
When the ordinals flipped, The commentators said they must of had a bogus scoresheet when Tonya dropped from first overall over Ervin and Tonia K to 4th after Nancy skated . I am glad the ordinal system is gone. The youtube videos I watched didn't give the scores for anyone but Nancy (imo she was overmarked).
I do recall the Scotvolds complaining about Tonya making the Olympic team over Heiss's girls. I don't know why that would matter to him. When both Tonya and Nancy bombed at 92 worlds (both did 2 3 sals, and no combos), he was quoted as saying he would of been happy with 5th for Nancy as long as she was placed ahead of Tonya. On the 94 Olympic broadcast, Mary Scotvold said Tonya wasn't a world-class skater and brought up Tonya not making the 93 world team.
As for that Canadian judge who said Tonya would of been done with skating even without the whack at the Olympic- someone needs to tell her that is bs. In a no-whack world, Tonya would of at least been able to skate with Ice Capades and do a few pro comps (Button did like her).

 

[meggonzo]

As I said above, the real perplexing judging was Kwiakowski over Harding (or even Bobek). Tonia K also only landed two triples (lutz and toe) plus a triple toe with a hand down. She also ended her program with a mistake on a double axel and weak basic skating without the joy and sell that Ervin had to make up for it. I thought she was a clear 5th.

I watched Bobek's long program today, it was not linked in the earlier post - here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KHZ6XdNC2U
I'm surprised that Bobek didn't beat Kwiatkowski in the long. She also only did two clean triples (sal and flip) and hands down on a triple toe, but she also did not fall and had 3 huge double axels. I also think Nicole's skating is better than Tonia K.

When the ordinals flipped, The commentators said they must of had a bogus scoresheet when Tonya dropped from first overall over Ervin and Tonia K to 4th after Nancy skated . I am glad the ordinal system is gone.

It is really weird. Wasn't the skate order in the free Harding, Bobek, Kwiatkowski, Ervin, Kerrigan? I don't recall if Kwan was in the last group. And didn't Nancy place first in both segments? Nancy's ordinals must have been a mess too. Ervin must have been lower in the long at the time, but then maybe some judges had her first overall and Nancy second, which must have moved all the placements around. Is there an explanation somewhere? I think something like that happened at 92 Worlds too with Hubert ahead of Chen and then Chen ended up winning the bronze ahead of Hubert.

ETA: Found this thread from 2007 on the ordinal flip https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/1993-us-nationals-bizarre-ordinal-flips-for-harding.46102/
And a review from Skate Web: http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/1993-us-nationals.shtml

Seems there was no majority of third places. 1993 was also the competition where the term "chacked" came from - Michael Chack won the bronze after being only 6th in the short and didn't make the TV broadcast.

 

[Vagabond]

Nancy has sometimes said in interviews that her career will always be remembered and associated with the attack. After all, she was also a US Champion, and a two - time Olympic medallist.

I wonder if the assault had never happened, how well she would actually be remembered for her skating.

If the '94 Olympics had otherwise unfolded as they did, Kerrigan would probably be remembered best as that skater who was stiffed out of an Olympic Gold Medal because Jan Hoffman had his head turned. YMMV

 

[Seerek]

If anything, the splatfest 1993 U.S. Nationals was apparently what got Elaine Zayak inspired to reinstate the following season, so there's that at least.

 

[bardtoob]

I don't recall if Kwan was in the last group.

Kwan was 6th in SP at 1993 US Nationals. Didn't that guarantee a spot in the final flight?

 

[Erin]

It is really weird. Wasn't the skate order in the free Harding, Bobek, Kwiatkowski, Ervin, Kerrigan? I don't recall if Kwan was in the last group. And didn't Nancy place first in both segments? Nancy's ordinals must have been a mess too. Ervin must have been lower in the long at the time, but then maybe some judges had her first overall and Nancy second, which must have moved all the placements around.

Nancy had clear first place ordinals across the board and I don't think she flipped anything. The commentators were either confused or the scoreboard didn't update properly.

I took a guess at the ordinals based on Kwiatkowski's presentation marks only and this is what I think likely happened (with apologies for the formatting, typing on my phone).

Ordinals before Ervin skated:

Harding:
221232231

Bobek:
332121312

Kwiatkowski:
113313123

Since no one had a majority of first places (Kwiatkowski only had 4 first places), it goes by who had the most first and seconds combined, which was Harding. Then after Ervin skated, ordinals went to:

Harding:
232343342

Bobek:
443132413

Kwiatkowski:
124424224

Ervin:
311211132

Ervin leads with 5 first places and Kwiatkowski now has 5 seconds or greater so she can go into second without having to count who has the most thirds or higher, which puts her ahead of Harding and that's where the flip happens.

Then Nancy skated and everyone gets bumped down one notch. Her presentation score was at least a tenth higher on every judges card (5.8s and 5.9s across the board when Bobek and Ervin got one 5.8 apiece but those judges both gave Nancy 5.9) and her technical score was generally above the other skaters (the odd judge tied her with one other skater), so she could not have caused the ordinals to change.

 

[Erin]

Kwan was 6th in SP at 1993 US Nationals. Didn't that guarantee a spot in the final flight?

There were flights of 5 that year. She wasn't in the final group or she would have made the broadcast.

 

[bardtoob]

There were flights of 5 that year. She wasn't in the final group or she would have made the broadcast.

Classic result of a USFSA decision!

 

[el henry]

I don't know, don't remember, and don't care if Tonya truly wuzrobbed.

But, as a Philadelphia Eagles fan who bleeds green, I think it's great that one of my favorite Iggles is watching #30for30 on ESPN and talking Tonya to his football followers.

Chris Long, DE for the Birds, has tweeted:

These Tonya Harding hitmen are something else #30for30

And his manly men football followers are talking "I Tonya"
https://twitter.com/JOEL9ONE/status/945825091413331973

 

[bardtoob]

I don't know, don't remember, and don't care if Tonya truly wuzrobbed.

But, as a Philadelphia Eagles fan who bleeds green, I think it's great that one of my favorite Iggles is watching #30for30 on ESPN and talking Tonya to his football followers.

Chris Long, DE for the Birds, has tweeted:

These Tonya Harding hitmen are something else #30for30

And his manly men football followers are talking "I Tonya"

Chris Long
@JOEL9ONE
These Tonya Harding hitmen are something else #30for30
5:14 PM · Dec 26, 2017

j u n e / b l a z e
@juneblazemusic
·
40m
Replying to @JOEL9ONE
Seriously big bro. Ice skaters are savages

James Rosson
@james_rosson
1h
Replying to @JOEL9ONE
So the Margot Robbie movie is not the 30for30?
Christine Voigtsberg
Christine Voigtsberg
@ChrissyV1021

·

8m
No, her movies in the theaters
Brian Gleckner ✌
Brian Gleckner ✌
@BGleck97

·

1h
Replying to @JOEL9ONE
You see there’s a movie coming out with Margot Robbie as the lead?

 

[gkelly]

Classic result of a USFSA decision!

But as mentioned above it made more of a difference in the men's event, where the 6th place skater from the short program ended up medaling from outside the final flight.

 

[Erin]

Classic result of a USFSA decision!

Even more classic was getting the expression Chack, as that event is where the expression originated (he was also 6th in the short and didn't make the broadcast because of that, which meant his bronze medal winning free skate wasn't shown).

 

[bardtoob]

But as mentioned above it made more of a difference in the men's event, where the 6th place skater from the short program ended up medaling from outside the final flight.

Even more classic was getting the expression Chack, as that event is where the expression originated (he was also 6th in the short and didn't make the broadcast because of that, which meant his bronze medal winning free skate wasn't shown).

Here is what Sandra Loosemore wrote:

First of all, the men's competition. It's really a shame that ABC didn't show Rudy Galindo or Michael Chack because they both skated very, very well in the long program. They'd both messed up their combinations in the technical program and didn't place high enough to make it into the final group.

Anyway, Galindo hit *all* of his elements and got a standing ovation. He has a lot of really unique moves -- a beautiful layback spin, and a spiral with an almost 180 degree split, and the like -- and nice choreography and music too. He was so excited afterwards, jumping around and hugging his coach!

Chack didn't quite skate clean but had a harder program to begin with, and it was also very nicely presented with classical music and choreography by Michael Siebert.

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/1993-us-nationals.shtml

 

[meggonzo]

There were flights of 5 that year. She wasn't in the final group or she would have made the broadcast.

She was on the broadcast.

 

[meggonzo]

Nancy had clear first place ordinals across the board and I don't think she flipped anything. The commentators were either confused or the scoreboard didn't update properly.

I took a guess at the ordinals based on Kwiatkowski's presentation marks only and this is what I think likely happened (with apologies for the formatting, typing on my phone).

Ordinals before Ervin skated:

Harding:
221232231

Bobek:
332121312

Kwiatkowski:
113313123

Since no one had a majority of first places (Kwiatkowski only had 4 first places), it goes by who had the most first and seconds combined, which was Harding. Then after Ervin skated, ordinals went to:

Harding:
232343342

Bobek:
443132413

Kwiatkowski:
124424224

Ervin:
311211132

Ervin leads with 5 first places and Kwiatkowski now has 5 seconds or greater so she can go into second without having to count who has the most thirds or higher, which puts her ahead of Harding and that's where the flip happens.

Then Nancy skated and everyone gets bumped down one notch. Her presentation score was at least a tenth higher on every judges card (5.8s and 5.9s across the board when Bobek and Ervin got one 5.8 apiece but those judges both gave Nancy 5.9) and her technical score was generally above the other skaters (the odd judge tied her with one other skater), so she could not have caused the ordinals to change.

I'd have to watch the video again, but I'm pretty sure Ervin went behind Harding after she skated, and only Kerrigan was left to skate.

 

[bardtoob]

She was on the broadcast.

No, the LP available on YouTube is an independent professional recording sold by USFSA.

 

[Seerek]

There were flights of 5 that year. She wasn't in the final group or she would have made the broadcast.

I believe US Nationals have always had a 5 skater final flight in singles if the number of total entrants is exactly 19 or 20 for the short program, which was the case for the women in 1993.

 

[meggonzo]

No, the LP available on YouTube is an independent professional recording sold by USFSA.

I thought I remembered watching Michelle in 1993 on TV. I felt like they made a big deal out of her only being 12 years old, and it made a big impression on me since she's only a year older than me. I'll have to see if I have a video tape hidden away somewhere...

 

[Erin]

She was on the broadcast.

Kwan wasn't on the ABC broadcast - the YouTube video is from Video Sports Production and that's the only video available of her.

I'd have to watch the video again, but I'm pretty sure Ervin went behind Harding after she skated, and only Kerrigan was left to skate.

Like I said, the commentators must l have announced Ervin's placement wrong (and who knows, maybe they also got Kwiatkowski's placement wrong and there was never a flip flop) but I am confident that Nancy's marks were all 1st place ordinals, even without seeing Kwiatkowski's technical marks. They were far out in front of everyone else's.

 

[cmk]

I'd have to watch the video again, but I'm pretty sure Ervin went behind Harding after she skated, and only Kerrigan was left to skate.

Harding had been 2nd in the short, Ervin was 5th. Ervin beat Harding in the free but not overall until Nancy skated. The standings before Nancy were Harding, Ervin, and Kwiatkowsi. After Nancy skated, Harding dropped to 4th, and the commentators just assumed there was a scoreboard error. Tonya really should of beat at least Tonia K though.

 

[Vagabond]

1993 was also the competition where the term "chacked" came from - Michael Chack won the bronze after being only 6th in the short and didn't make the TV broadcast.

There were flights of 5 that year. She wasn't in the final group or she would have made the broadcast.

How odd the vagaries of fate! Kwan was chacked for the one and only time in her career, and, in hindsight, we should perhaps say that Chack got Kwanned.

 

[meggonzo]

Kwan wasn't on the ABC broadcast - the YouTube video is from Video Sports Production and that's the only video available of her.



Like I said, the commentators must l have announced Ervin's placement wrong (and who knows, maybe they also got Kwiatkowski's placement wrong and there was never a flip flop) but I am confident that Nancy's marks were all 1st place ordinals, even without seeing Kwiatkowski's technical marks. They were far out in front of everyone else's.

Harding had been 2nd in the short, Ervin was 5th. Ervin beat Harding in the free but not overall until Nancy skated. The standings before Nancy were Harding, Ervin, and Kwiatkowsi. After Nancy skated, Harding dropped to 4th, and the commentators just assumed there was a scoreboard error. Tonya really should of beat at least Tonia K though.

I watched the end of Nancy's video and the commentators said Harding was leading and then with the final results just said they had a bogus scoresheet and here are the actual results. Nancy did have some 5.6s for technical so it's possible a judge with a 5.6/5.8 had her behind Ervin? I'd have to look more closely at the scores.
ETA: Sorry, looks like you already figured out that the judges that gave the other skaters 5.8 in presentation gave Nancy a 5.9.

I'm really baffled about Kwan not being on the ABC broadcast. I swear I watched her at the time.

 

[cmk]

I watched the end of Nancy's video and the commentators said Harding was leading and then with the final results just said they had a bogus scoresheet and here are the actual results. Nancy did have some 5.6s for technical so it's possible a judge with a 5.6/5.8 had her behind Ervin? I'd have to look more closely at the scores.
ETA: Sorry, looks like you already figured out that the judges that gave the other skaters 5.8 in presentation gave Nancy a 5.9.

I'm really baffled about Kwan not being on the ABC broadcast. I swear I watched her at the time.

They had at least showed some of Kwan's program if not the whole thing because I remember seeing at least part of her program in 93. They also did mention she was only 12.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

You have to wonder if the decision to send Ervin and Kwaitkowski to the World Championships may have had something to do with the new format in 1993.

That is, the inclusion of a qualification round, where skating the free program determined if a skater would place high enough to enter the actual competition.

Funny though, that Harding, Ervin, and Kwaitkowski had relatively the same technical triple jump content, and as we know, Tonia K. did not make it out of qualification. Also, only Kerrigan, Harding and Bobek skated clean short programs in Phoenix, and Ervin made the same error she did on the combination in Prague.

 

[Vagabond]

@meggonzo. They mentioned her age a lot when she was thirteen. (How could they not?) Perhaps this is what you remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgw5T185mQo

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

If the '94 Olympics had otherwise unfolded as they did, Kerrigan would probably be remembered best as that skater who was stiffed out of an Olympic Gold Medal because Jan Hoffman had his head turned. YMMV

Speaking of stiff, Nancy was sometimes criticised for the wooden choreography given to her by Mary Scotvold.

That is why I love the exciting and dynamic performances she gave on Dancing With The Stars, a possible mark of the dancer she was capable of being.

 

[meggonzo]

@meggonzo. They mentioned her age a lot when she was thirteen. (How could they not?) Perhaps this is what you remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgw5T185mQo

I feel like i knew who she was before 1994. And I specifically remember 12, unless I was thinking if my own age?

 

[Vagabond]

I feel like i knew who she was before 1994. And I specifically remember 12, unless I was thinking if my own age?

Were you reading newspapers back then? She got quite a bit of attention for (1) testing up to Seniors behind her coach's back and (2) being the first youngest Senior competitor at Nationals in more than two decades.

FIGURE SKATING: Seeking a Perfect 6 At a Precocious 12

The figure-skating coach went to a coaches convention in Canada. Where was the harm in that?

But when Frank Carroll returned last May from his week in Ottawa, he found that his 12-year-old protege, Michelle Kwan, had conspired with her father against him. In Carroll's absence, Kwan had taken the skating test to qualify for seniors [competition]. Not surprisingly, she had passed.

Never ever trust an eleven-year-old girl!

 

[SpeedySucks]

I feel like i knew who she was before 1994. And I specifically remember 12, unless I was thinking if my own age?

Are you thinking of Kwan’s performance at the 1993 U.S. Olympic Festival in San Antonio in July? That was the first time I remember seeing Kwan on TV.