I, Tonya

Well said, @Erin I think the problem is that many of her contemporaries did get the benefit of the doubt and did win close calls. That is probably why Tonya and her fans felt so robbed.
 
Coco said:
Well said, @Erin I think the problem is that many of her contemporaries did get the benefit of the doubt and did win close calls. That is probably why Tonya and her fans felt so robbed.
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I generally agree with this - when Tonya didn't skate well, she didn't get held up by the judges, whereas some of her competitors, including Nancy, did. I can see how this fueled Tonya's belief that there was a bias against her, even though I find her claims of a grand conspiracy to be ridiculous.

Based on the results that are easily available, I think Nancy beat Tonya only twice prior to 1992. The first time was at 1990 U.S. Nationals, when Tonya was sick, and the second was at the 1990 U.S. Olympic Festival, which was a relatively meaningless competition held in July. Tonya beat Nancy at the 1988, 1989, and 1991 U.S. Nationals, and she also beat Nancy all three times they met internationally prior to 1992 (1987 NHK, 1989 Skate America, and 1991 Worlds). Overall, Tonya had a much more successful international record than Nancy. Despite this record, she really got no favors from the judges when she skated poorly in 1992 and 1993, whereas Nancy was held up repeatedly for poor free skates during those two years, except for 1993 Worlds, when everyone else skated so well that there was no way to hold up Nancy. I'm sure this was hard for Tonya to understand given her superior record from 1987-91, even though her poor performances in 1992-93 were due to her own lack of training.

You could also argue that Ito was held up compared to Tonya in the original program at the 1992 Olympics, placing ahead of Hubert with a fall on an easier jump while Tonya fell on a triple axel and finished behind Hubert.

Overall, as soon as Tonya started skating poorly in 1992, she got dumped by the judges, whereas others who weren't skating all that much better than her continued to receive higher marks.
 
Erin said:
The one time I can think of when Tonya was blatantly robbed is the 1987 NHK that bardtoob posted earlier in the thread, but that was more about holding up Witt than anything, as Ito was also robbed badly. So it was more of a "wait your turn" than personal against Harding.
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Agreed.
The video is upthread.
 
Thanks to @Erin for the reply. Many skaters have been widely considered consistently underscored, Matt Savoie, Midori Ito, Abt, to name a few. Some have been considered underscored at least by fans, like Mao Asada and Mirai Nagasu. Don't even get me started on ice dancing... From the little I knew about 93 to 94, Harding was very inconsistent technically, and without the conventional "elegance", she was not considered a gold medal contender at that time. One similar example is Wakaba Higuchi, who got no benefit of the doubt whatsoever this season, including her own federation. Without consistent jumps, that's what happens to most competitors. However, even back then there were Harding fan clubs who wrote about the establishment's collective efforts to keep her down. I just fail to see why it's exceptional in her case.
 
Saw the movie and will share a couple of impressions after some context. I didn't follow skating during Tonya's career, so while I probably know more about Tonya than the average person going to this movie, that is definitely not the case compared to others on FSU.

Also, I am one of those people who only trusts recommendations/opinions about movies from people who either know my taste or have similar taste to me, so I don't expect my take on this movie (a movie that will and should produce a wide range of opinions) will be consistent with anyone else's.

Allison Janney was great and I wish she would have been in it more.

I thought the movie's style was messy and that it was trying way too hard to be great, and also to be too many things at once. In some ways, this is consistent with the story of Tonya because it has elements of serious tragedy mixed with elements of ludicrousness--but even if her biography could be classified as WTF, having the movie's tone/style match that didn't work for me. (Although, appropriately, I think "What the ****!?" is in the script at least fifty times.)

I agree with the critics who said the movie's attempt to critique its audience (and the American public) is problematic and also that the movie is "derisive and dismissive" toward Tonya. Before I watched, I was somewhat expecting the depiction of Tonya to be overly positive, but I thought it was exactly the opposite. The movie doesn't dehumanize her, but if anyone thinks that alone is too positive, I disagree.

Overall, it was very funny at times, exhausting at times, and unsuccessfully manipulative at times. I don't think it's a great movie or even a good one, but I'm glad I watched it and will have the chance to continue discussing it with others.

The last thing I want to say is that the movie was much more similar to Julie Brown's Attack of the 5'2" Women than I expected. Most of the research for I, Tonya could have come just from Julie Brown's script, although I assume it didn't.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
My PR friend is working the red carpet at the Globes next Sunday (same day as Mens and dance final)? He is asking me if I want to work it with him.

He has to walk down the red carpet.... Frances McDormand, Annette Bening, James Franco and Alison Janney!!!!! Should I go???? (PS Ive done this before with him for the Emmys and Daytime Emmy awards before.)

The Beverly Hills Hilton is just down SM Blvd for me.

I also wouldn't mind escorting Franco either.

I should also be able to see Margot and Laurie Metcalfe.
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Of course! Post pictures! (Just curious, what do they ask you to wear?)
 
Aerobicidal said:
I agree with the critics who said the movie's attempt to critique its audience (and the American public) is problematic and also that the movie is "derisive and dismissive" toward Tonya. Before I watched, I was somewhat expecting the depiction of Tonya to be overly positive, but I thought it was exactly the opposite. The movie doesn't dehumanize her, but if anyone thinks that alone is too positive, I disagree.
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I think the movie struck a good balance between good Tonya/bad Tonya. I laughed at Margot/Tonya proclaiming at different times, “But it wasn’t MY fault.” :). The movie’s end credits play over the real Tonya skating her very best, clips mostly taken from her 1991 US Championship performance, so the producers most likely feel positive toward her...should keep Harding happy. Will have to check for her on the red carpet next week.
 
debo said:
I think the movie struck a good balance between good Tonya/bad Tonya. I laughed at Margot/Tonya proclaiming at different times, “But it wasn’t MY fault.” :). The movie’s end credits play over the real Tonya skating her very best, clips mostly taken from her 1991 US Championship performance, so the producers most likely feel positive toward her...should keep Harding happy. Will have to check for her on the red carpet next week.
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That's all definitely reasonable, but my personal impression was that the movie--regardless of the producers' feelings or intentions--made Tonya out to be a laughing stock. The second review I posted says it better than I could:
Yet the movie perpetuates the very condescension that it purports to condemn: it treats Tonya’s background, her tastes, her habits, her way of talking, as a joke. It may think it’s laughing with her, but Tonya’s not laughing.
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Tonya might be enjoying her return to the spotlight and may find the movie much more positive in its depiction of her than I do, though. It's all subjective, a point the movie makes (quite blatantly and weakly, in my opinion).

As far as the end credits are concerned, that may be evidence that the producers wanted to end on a note emphasizing that Tonya could be a great skater. However, I'm not sure that being a good athlete would detract from all the negativity toward Tonya throughout the rest of the movie. I could make a biopic about Roman Polanski and make him out to be a thoroughly sociopathic pedophile but show clips from Chinatown. I'm not sure real evidence of someone's talents should redeem them, although in reality I'm sure it often does, at least to some extent.

Then again, I would imagine that most viewers would have no idea Tonya was skating her best in those videos. I certainly didn't!

@meggonzo and @alchemy void I have my secret ways of obtaining films. Let's just say I have been doing underground networking . . . in a bathroom in Grenoble.
 
Aerobicidal said:
As far as the end credits are concerned, that may be evidence that the producers wanted to end on a note emphasizing that Tonya could be a great skater. However, I'm not sure that being a good athlete would detract from all the negativity toward Tonya throughout the rest of the movie. I could make a biopic about Roman Polanski and make him out to be a thoroughly sociopathic pedophile but show clips from Chinatown. I'm not sure real evidence of someone's talents should redeem them, although in reality I'm sure it often does, at least to some extent.

Then again, I would imagine that most viewers would have no idea Tonya was skating her best in those videos. I certainly didn't!
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My audience seemed to. There were audible gasps when she did the triple axel. (And I'm pretty sure 99% of them wouldn't be able to identify a triple axel on its own, but the height and power is obvious.) And even if you didn't know what the jumps were, her joy when she ended the program was unmistakable. It's like she said during the movie, "For a minute, I was the best skater in the world." That's what she felt. It read as melancholy to me, that we saw that after we saw the rest of her story.

I don't think there was a good Tonya or bad Tonya. My impression while watching the film, was that she was a defensive person who was desperate for validation. Her quest for that validation led down some dark roads for her, but she kept on going, kept on getting back up. For better or for worse. No, I don't think she learns anything, but it certainly made me think about how people try to validate themselves and find value in their being.
 
I saw the movie. It was good, interesting, and well-acted, but seemed to run longer than it needed to. I can see why Allison Janney is an Oscar frontrunner, but I'm surprised Sebastian Stan isn't getting recognition. I did find some of the CGI really noticeable. There's one point where it's clear the double is doing a spin, and it was really noticeable to me when they merged that with Margot and her face.

Margot is on the cover of the Cineplex magazine in Canada, and the interview is pretty interesting. In it she says she met Tonya once before filming, and all she wanted to do was talk about her kid, and that Margot found her to be a really kind person, and they've been texting each other every since (the interview is from before the premiere).
 
I haven't seen the movie yet, but judging from the clips of Janney, I'll be rooting for Laurie Metcalf and Hong Chau for the Oscar if they are nominated.
 
screech said:
I saw the movie. It was good, interesting, and well-acted, but seemed to run longer than it needed to. I can see why Allison Janney is an Oscar frontrunner, but I'm surprised Sebastian Stan isn't getting recognition. I did find some of the CGI really noticeable. There's one point where it's clear the double is doing a spin, and it was really noticeable to me when they merged that with Margot and her face.

Margot is on the cover of the Cineplex magazine in Canada, and the interview is pretty interesting. In it she says she met Tonya once before filming, and all she wanted to do was talk about her kid, and that Margot found her to be a really kind person, and they've been texting each other every since (the interview is from before the premiere).
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Sebastian isn't getting nearly the kind of recognition he deserves for the Gilooly role. Both Tonya and LaVona are showy Oscar-bait roles and can be in-your-face about it, but the fact that I didn't want to throw Gilooly off a cliff is entirely on Sebastian. :rofl: It would be far too easy to make him evil (and he even has a mustache to twirl) but he rides that line between an earnest need to show his love and frustrated violence over his seeming inability to do anything right.

I read that Margot didn't want to meet Tonya until she already knew how she was going to play the role. I'm not surprised that Tonya seems to be better, now that she's moved on from skating and doesn't seem to need that for validation. Often, to stop being a toxic person, you have to escape your toxic environment.
 
Tonya seemed to be part of the conversation over three Olympiads (along with Debi Thomas, Caryn Kadavy & Tiffany Chin in the lead up to 1988, Jill Trenary, Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan & Holly Cook in the lead up to 1992, and in 1994, with Kerrigan, Tonia Kwaitkowski, Lisa Ervin, Nicole Bobek and Michelle Kwan).

Given how amazing she was at Skate America in 1986 (winning the sp and lp and coming second to Chin overall), too bad there isn't accessible footage of her 1987 National Championships short and free program performances to see how she did in comparison to Trenary, Thomas, Kadavy and Chin.

Thomas and Chin really tanked in the free, and Kadavy's long program ran hot and cold.

I always got the impression Harding was judged better internationally than on US ice.
 
essence_of_soy said:
Given how amazing she was at Skate America in 1986 (winning the sp and lp and coming second to Chin overall), too bad there isn't accessible footage of her 1987 National Championships short and free program performances to see how she did in comparison to Trenary, Thomas, Kadavy and Chin.
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Tonya Harding changed the career paths of Tiffany Chin and Caryn Kadavy at 1987 U.S. Nationals.

Tiffany Chin would have made the 1987 U.S. World Team if she had only finished 1 place behind Caryn Kadavy in the free skate (after Caryn botched the short program with a bad waxel, as discussed in The Skating Lesson interview).

Unfortunately for Tiffany, a combination of her poor freeskate plus a good freeskate from Tonya meant, 3rd in the free for Caryn, 4th in the free for Tonya, 5th in the free for Tiffany.

End result:

Caryn (1.8+3.6+3.0= 8.4) just makes the World Team...
and wins a bronze medal in Cincinnati.

Tiffany (2.4+1.2+5.0=8.6) just misses the World Team...
and retires from eligible skating before the Olympic season.
 
*spoiler alert*

I think the movie lacks an identity. It is kind of like a TV movie, it starts out more with interviews, mostly ditches those, and brings them back more towards the end. It's not a comedy nor a drama nor even a tragicomedy. I can't state that I didn't like it, but I also didn't see much of a point except to possibly present a somewhat balanced biopic of Tonya. Even then, so much time gets spent on other characters that there's not a seamless quality about such a goal or focus.

There were a few things that seemed changed from real life (no surprise) or else new to me, but not many. I don't recall Tonya constantly having such long, strong negative reactions to marks. In the movie, Jeff doesn't state that Tonya knew about the attack in advance, but my memory tells me that in 1994 he claimed she did know about it before it happened.

Margot does a really good job with believable Tonya speech patterns, accent, and mannerisms. The other characters are also quite solid, though Dody Teachman seemed miscast.

The skating scenes were not cringeworthy at all. There is one spin near the end where it's totally not Margot's face until the skater stops.

All in all, the production did its homework and copied costumes, mannerisms, and the plot well from video sources (I venture), but I don't think I would seek out the film to ever watch again.
 
Except that it was the poor international results that prompted the whole whack. 4th instead of 3rd in Albertville meant Nancy got to make $$$$ while Tonya sat home and stewed, and the whole whack-job plan was hatched after Tonya got hosed at NHK, so.. :shuffle:
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
I think Tonya’s international results pretty much mirror her domestic ones.
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I'd agree with this. I'd give the 1992 Olympics as an example where the international judges didn't give her any more credit than the US judges.

Jun Y said:
I just fail to see why it's exceptional in her case.
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I agree that it's not exceptional. But I can also see where from her biased perspective, she (and her fans) would view it differently. 1993 Nationals might be a good example, where she and Nancy both skate poorly in the free program. From Tonya's perspective, Nancy gets straight first place ordinals, Tonya gets dumped from the World team. There is much more to it than that, but that's how the perception starts.
 
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