I, Tonya

[bardtoob]

I have no evidence of this, but a part of me thinks she liked figures too because she was able to dig deep into the ice.

Well, Tonya was 4th in figures during 1989 Nationals. Compare that to Kristi and Nancy, who were 8th and 9th.

. . . I have this completely unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that Tonya did not make the 1989 World Team because she was good enough in Figures to be disruptive to Trenary's bid for the World Championship, particularly if Tonya beat Midori in Figures and beat Trenary in the SP and LP, or, worse yet, beat both Midori and Trenary in the SP and/or LP.

On the other hand, Yamaguchi was good, but unable to wedge herself between Midori and Trenary the same way Tonya could.

Tonya was actually a much more direct competitor with Trenary than Yamaguchi from 1985 to 1990 Worlds. Tonya and Trenary were both forced to "wait their turn" until after the 1988 Olympics, but Trenary, with Fassi as her coach, was able to get to the Olympics while Tonya was not.

 

[bardtoob]

One of my favorite set of videos is Witt, Ito, and Harding at the NHK Trophy 1987. Katarina was gifted with the win, but Ito and Harding made Witt look like she was not even doing the same sport! Witt was 3rd going into the LP.

Midori Ito
SP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TgQaLmVm9I
LP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdjHYm921QE

Tonya Harding
SP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3xshNNvRQ
LP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlUUDmn0lvo

Katarina Witt
SP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrHE7Fgtdl8
LP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQOrgPoIRGI

 

[Japanfan]

P.S. I do wonder. She was charged (and I think convicted) of domestic assault on at least two separate counts after the whack, and I do wonder if some would have been as forgiving about that if she was a man even if he got his life together and had the same upbringing that Tonya did. I don't mean to take away the extra layer of hardship that being a woman with her background gave her and all the expectations that comes with in a sport like this (that was part of the problem), just musing.

But that extra layer of hardship exists.

A male skater with a background similar to Tonya wouldn't have been in the exact same situation as Tonya. Men is FS have a lot more freedom to be athletic and powerful than women do, hence more freedom in general. It was only last year when Gabbie Daleman said in an interview that she used to be embarrassed of her biceps and want to hide them.

I find it interesting that although women can now wear pants as options, so few do. And those who do, tend rock it - Aliona, Vanessa Morgan, Perkova with her 'Pirates of the Caribbean' routine, Mae Berenice (whom I absolutely adore) in black pants this year. Not to mention, it adds an element of synchronicity to pair and dance teams in allowing for matching or near-matching costumes.

The 'feminine' stereotype of ladies skating persists - and so, unfortunately, does the view that FS is an effeminate sport for men, at least in the west.

 

[misskarne]

Women drinking beer at all is strange, to me, at least.

*blinks*

*blinks*

The dinosaurs have been extinct for a few million years now. You missed that memo, mate?

 

[Japanfan]

Women drinking beer at all is strange, to me, at least.

What are women supposed to drink, then? Pretty pink cocktails with umbrellas in them?

I suppose one might argue that beer is a drink for the poor, whereas the rich can enjoy their whiskey.

But I really don't think that's true, nor that beer is for men and not women.

Nothing better than a cold beer on a hot day when one is thirsty.

Also, I grew up in a Northern Canadian mining town in the 60s and 70s, and drinking was a major source of recreation.

The women could knock back the beer just as well as the men!

Though I didn't drink beer or anything else much myself back then. It was San Miguel beer in the Philippines that made me a beer drinker.

All over the internet, real life too. "Look how cool and crass I am, drinking beer from a bottle." That sort of thing. Not in the skating world specifically, but it's a "thing" -- and a persona like Tonya plays into it well.

What's cool or crass about drinking from a bottle, be it beer or pop?

Some people prefer to drink their beer from a glass, but I've never seen it as inferior to drinking from the bottle. I've actually never thought about it!

 

[Daena]

Women drinking beer at all is strange, to me, at least.

You totally need to visit Belgium and try their beer. It's heaven's gift to all mankind.

 

[oleada]

Women drinking beer at all is strange, to me, at least.

You realize it's 2017?

 

[Coco]

Wow...those nhk vids! Thanks @bardtoob

 

[meggonzo]

Fair enough. I think I was over 18 the first time I saw it, though, and it stuck me as very strange. The woman in question was doing it for effect, too.

It's strange in the way that seeing a lady (post-Sonja Henie, anyway, haha) in black skating boots is strange.

To be fair, beer in cans is also a bit odd -- wasn't, and isn't, common among the men I know. I don't think I've ever seen my husband with canned beer.

I'm guessing the effect was the woman wanted to quench her thirst.

 

[Vagabond]

This is exactly why Tonya's victim act bothers me so much. She wasn't the one assaulted because of someone else's complete and utter lack of sportsmanship. Any sympathy I would normally have for someone with Tonya's background goes out the window with that simple fact.

P.S. I do wonder. She was charged (and I think convicted) of domestic assault on at least two separate counts after the whack, and I do wonder if some would have been as forgiving about that if she was a man even if he got his life together and had the same upbringing that Tonya did. I don't mean to take away the extra layer of hardship that being a woman with her background gave her and all the expectations that comes with in a sport like this (that was part of the problem), just musing.

Tonya Harding's "upbringing" was growing up with a physically and psychologically abusive mother, who assaulted her because of a complete and utter lack of parenting ability.

It's difficult for any victim of childhood abuse to get his or her life together, regardless of the socioeconomic circumstances. Unfortunately, many such people themselves become abusers. We do not give them a free pass because they were abused before they abused; we hold them accountable.

I think we can sympathize with Tonya Harding as the victim of abuse, but we should pity her, not sympathize with her, for being unable to overcome the effects of the abuse.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Well Margaret Court truly is a self-righteous homophobic bigot.

Absolutely, and I loved how the movie stuck it to her. I was actually quite surprised they did that, given the film was likely in post production before Pastor Court made a total idiot out of herself on her views against gay marriage.

 

[UGG]

Women drinking beer at all is strange, to me, at least.

Where do you live? Women everywhere drink beer. It’s not something shocking to see at all. It’s not something people do to be “cool”. This is one of the strangest comments I have ever seen in here. I don’t care what people drink but if anything, I really don’t understand how people drink cup cake flavored vodka in a martini. Yuck!

 

[vesperholly]

Absolutely, and I loved how the movie stuck it to her. I was actually quite surprised they did that, given the film was likely in post production before Pastor Court made a total idiot out of herself on her views against gay marriage.

Apparently she's been known as a anti-LGBT bigot for quite some time.

From 2011: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/12/1...ourt-serves-up-controversy-over-gay-marriage/

I think a lot of USFSA's actions (whatever they were) regarding Tonya were out of frustration, not always sexism or classism or tacky-skating-ism. Tonya could have won the Olympics if she had maintained her 1991 caliber - 7 triples that included a 3axel and 3-3! That would be still be competitive today. She could have won BOTH Olympics. USFSA wants winners.

 

[MacMadame]

"I saw her mess with it, must have unhooked it" is logical and forgiveable, I think -- and I'm saying that not knowing Morry personally. Just pointing out that wrong doesn't mean lying.

I don't consider his remarks logical or forgivable. Especially as he refused to admit he was wrong when people posted links showing that the dress popped open by itself.

 

[bardtoob]

I don't consider his remarks logical or forgivable. Especially as he refused to admit he was wrong when people posted links showing that the dress popped open by itself.

I considered his position "understandable", however, and I am satisfied that the net outcome was the same, Tonya got to reskate.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

It was only last year when Gabbie Daleman said in an interview that she used to be embarrassed of her biceps and want to hide them.

Awe, I feel for her. I find her arms beautifully toned, just look: http://oi63.tinypic.com/miewyc.jpg http://oi67.tinypic.com/10engk6.jpg . Sharing the same birthday as fellow Canuck Joannie rochette isn't the only thing they have in common.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Where do you live? Women everywhere drink beer. It’s not something shocking to see at all. It’s not something people do to be “cool”.

I wonder how the reaction to skatepixie's comments would change if she replies "i am from the Middle East"...

Regarding "drinking beer to be cool"... Skatepixie is not incorrect to think that some do it to be "cool"..... in the geographic areas where traditions are to serve at social events "beer and hard liquor for men" and "wine & champagne for women", younger women do try to "drink beer/vodka and puff on a cigarette" to defile the "restrictive adults"...

For example in our days, in USSR, for a girl to be drinking "men's drinks and smoking" was an act of rebellion. It is an act of rebellion still in several other places in this world.
https://img0.etsystatic.com/139/0/11296903/il_570xN.869088636_kdrw.jpg
http://era.by/editor/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/advimage/upload/2df3b4ee3ff27be6df14e6845cbe8609.jpg
http://img.bibo.kz/?4209943.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xCCsTaF.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/54/b1/de54b1a4b1ff0ab33393470d027afaf9.jpg

And yet, there's a trend now of women being, or wanting to be, rough and nasty to show that they are "strong" or some such. A way of rebelling against the princess image by, just being as low class as possible, I guess?

I'll send you a PM about that a bit later. It has to do to some extend with certain elements of socioeconomic and political agenda of certain groups, which sometimes has ugly exhibitions.

Women drinking beer at all is strange, to me, at least.

Here are few bits which maybe interesting. Beer-making (and drinking) historically is "woman's territory"...
Beer-making started over 4000+ years ago, in the Near East Regions (current Jordan, Israel, Egypt, etc).
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/3fcfd664a...tian-tomb-model-cairo-museum-egypt-d96by3.jpg
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...ent/uploads/Egyptian-woman-painting_Beer2.jpg

Fermented beverages (beer is one such) were the regular drinks consumed by an average family of those days. Women, along with all other house chores and cooking, brewed, served and drank beer on daily basis. There were "sleeping beers" used a sedatives, "menstrual cycle" and "pregnancy/birth" beers used as pain killers, beers for "energy to do the house work", beers for few other normal functions, including laxatives, and various "ceremonial beers" for all types of women's roles specially for women: mother's beer, bride's beer, guest's beer, midwife's beer, etc.... ... and that went on for centuries until early 1900's.. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/bb/92/25bb92e897779f410b5846981afce84e.jpg

Until the invention of bottling plants, women were the main "brewsters", they created and sold beer, and ran/owned pubs and breweries.

It was perfectly acceptable in Europe and New Worlds even in "high society" for women to drink beer, in their own company and along side of men....
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/10557707463_f4621c67a0_o.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/23/63/1f/23631f7fec8d863facecc1a97c1cde49--drink-beer-craft-beer.jpg

It was even considered sexy, "risque" and "coquette" for a Lady to drink beer...
https://michiganmugsandmeals.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/1954.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/3b/eb/9d/3beb9d7e66c26bb84eca26c0d6ef85d9.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/e2/22/52e222e7ce2976e004169cfa8dee288c--vintage-wine-vintage-woman.jpg

.. and some famous female celebrities advertised beer brands.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/ed/7f/c8ed7fdba788833396bafb62ffea2478.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/2d/f3/2b/...c63c8--beer-poster-vintage-advertisements.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/15/9e/c6/159ec699dbf7caeaf32e1b49b4d3d6ac--beer-boot-vintage-ladies.jpg

... Ladies from Royal Families will drink beer if offered by a host.. "ladies" never snub a host and should at least take a sip of what is offered (unless it's health issues).
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/princess-kate.jpg?w=720&quality=85
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/20/15/4284039300000578-4713936-image-m-331_1500560767708.jpg

In UK there are events such as "Ladies' day at the races", all women dress up like Royalty and have a party at a racing track...
https://i2-prod.chroniclelive.co.uk/incoming/article9572851.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS42799138.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/10/16/276F4BB300000578-3033363-image-a-450_1428680079166.jpg
... towards the end of the event it can even get like this...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/08/20/32FB2B3300000578-3529746-image-a-47_1460142343751.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/08/21/32FAC8BC00000578-3529746-image-m-17_1460145928363.jpg

..... and as to the "ugly"?.....
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sAxnXog5Smw/hqdefault.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ea/42/69/...483226c81de--rockabilly-girls-pinup-girls.jpg
.....well, that's another conversation, the "ugly" is not about "beer"....

If you're of age, skatepixie, and health and religion allows you to drink, do try Czech Pilsner .. some women who drink it do hold season tickets to La Scala...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8a/f2/cf/8af2cfb9ff0e2e3f365d8cf1b0187e53--retro-ads-vintage-ads.jpg

 

[skatepixie]

I'm guessing the effect was the woman wanted to quench her thirst.

She said stuff about how she likes to get a rise out of her mother-in-law by drinking beer -- so no, more than thirst. Northern Italy, post-2000. Never saw women drinking beer (except on TV as part of rebellious youth stuff) in Northern CA, either. This was before the beer trend, and the only people who really drank beer were men who watched sports. And youths who liked to leave broken bottles in the cemetery, making all the Nonnas mad as heck.

Beer culture isn't a big part of our family -- half seem to be allergic to hops, including me (I was the designated driver on a brewery tour after the microbrew trend caught on -- nasty rash on every bit of exposed skin left me thanking God I was wearing long sleeves and a maxi skirt -- my face looked BEAUTIFUL, though ). And the women, except for some of the rebels in my generation, are all wine drinkers or cocktail drinkers.

Beer is rare-ish in Northern Italy even for men -- it's around, but it isn't common, and certainly isn't common at dinner, etc.

 

[Vagabond]

I wonder how the reaction to skatepixie's comments would change if she replies "i am from the Middle East"...

There are plenty of Middle Eastern women who drink beer.

https://www.fromthegrapevine.com/israeli-kitchen/best-craft-beers-israel

But I know what you meant. If she had said that, then I'd would be curious as to why she finds it odd that women drink beer but apparently not that men drink beer.

 

[Tinami Amori]

But I know what you meant. If she had said that, then I'd would be curious as to why she finds it odd that women drink beer but apparently not that men drink beer.

Drinker's guide to Islam.. "Taste the Revolution"... men can.....
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys...12&fit=max&s=da3b00762d28f8fe29d32caba9ae9dec
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...8/drinkers-islam-palestinian-beerfest-alcohol

 

[Xela M]

I don't consider his remarks logical or forgivable. Especially as he refused to admit he was wrong when people posted links showing that the dress popped open by itself.

Didn't Tonya constantly have costume malfunctions and ask to re-skate programs though? Once is an accident, but over and over again... you can't blame judges for being doubtful

 

[skatepixie]

Thanks for the info TA, and for doing more than laughing at the situation. I can drink other alcohol, but was warned away from beer due to the allergy thing.

Regarding "drinking beer to be cool"... Skatepixie is not incorrect to think that some do it to be "cool"..... in the geographic areas where traditions are to serve at social events "beer and hard liquor for men" and "wine & champagne for women", younger women do try to "drink beer/vodka and puff on a cigarette" to defile the "restrictive adults"...

That's pretty much exactly how it was/is -- only wine is for everyone (wine growing region -- everyone drinks wine), beer is rare but men/only and there are some cocktails for the women as well, if they want them. Champagne is more of a New Year's and wedding thing, when it is consumed by all (often even underage folks, because Italians). Beer is becoming more common now because of the microbrew trend, but men are more into it than women, and it's still non uncommon to be asked, as a woman, if you drink beer at all. Northern CA breweries often have wine menus for wives who find themselves on the tour but don't drink/like beer. In Southern CA, they look at you like you're insane for asking for a wine menu in a brewery.

 

[Tinami Amori]

That's pretty much exactly how it was/is -- only wine is for everyone (wine growing region -- everyone drinks wine), beer is rare but men/only and there are some cocktails for the women as well, if they want them.

I absolutely agree with you, that even today in Italy some (and quite many at that) people think that there are 'women's drinks" and "men's drinks".

I experience quite often the following situation: I only drink grappa, when it is available. Usually i am the one who does the ordering at restaurants for our whole group. My male business partners love Italian wine, and don't drink grappa. I order 3x grappa shot for me and wine for partners. Waiters ALWAYS place 3x Grappa next to men, and try to pour wine for me..... .

Don’t laugh, but my favorite poster of Sofia Loren is this…
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/28/6e/96/286e9612654a86212da2d61c8ef66316--beer-sofia-loren.jpg

 

[MacMadame]

I considered his position "understandable", however, and I am satisfied that the net outcome was the same, Tonya got to reskate.

Oh, he wasn't saying it at the time to the judges. (And, if he did, USFS would have been pretty POed because you never do something to make it more likely Team USA places lower than it could.) This was an after-the-fact declaration.

That's pretty much exactly how it was/is -- only wine is for everyone (wine growing region -- everyone drinks wine), beer is rare but men/only and there are some cocktails for the women as well, if they want them. Champagne is more of a New Year's and wedding thing, when it is consumed by all (often even underage folks, because Italians). Beer is becoming more common now because of the microbrew trend, but men are more into it than women, and it's still non uncommon to be asked, as a woman, if you drink beer at all. Northern CA breweries often have wine menus for wives who find themselves on the tour but don't drink/like beer. In Southern CA, they look at you like you're insane for asking for a wine menu in a brewery.

I live in NorCal and have since '94 and I call BS on this.

For one thing, every company I've worked for has had Happy Hours on Friday where beer is served and nobody questions whether women will drink it. Nor have I been on a tour where women were offered wine because of course women don't drink beer!

Maybe in the 60s and 70s. But that was 40-50 years ago.

 

[skatepixie]

Oh, he wasn't saying it at the time to the judges. (And, if he did, USFS would have been pretty POed because you never do something to make it more likely Team USA places lower than it could.) This was an after-the-fact declaration.


I live in NorCal and have since '94 and I call BS on this.

For one thing, every company I've worked for has had Happy Hours on Friday where beer is served and nobody questions whether women will drink it. Nor have I been on a tour where women were offered wine because of course women don't drink beer!

Maybe in the 60s and 70s. But that was 40-50 years ago.

Depends where -- in the cities, or further North?

Bartenders and the like just give you what you ask for. Friends/family, etc, they will ask if you drink beer. Southern CA, people are sometimes shocked I don't. Northern? Never. But then again, I don't hang out in SF much.

As far as the costume is concern -- was he an old guy who didn't think about the idea of using a replay?

 

[Tinami Amori]

I live in NorCal and have since '94 and I call BS on this.
For one thing, every company I've worked for has had Happy Hours on Friday where beer is served and nobody questions whether women will drink it.

Nobody ever questions if a woman orders any kind of drink, in Calif, USA, most places.....

However! quite frequently i hear the following from a waiter in "our oh so progressive North Cal restaurants" when coming to take an order (first asking a MAN!!!): would you like anything to drink? any wine for the ladies?".
(and such waiters usually get an earful from me, about "who drinks what"..... that's for sure).

Last time it happened: Buckeye Roadhouse.....
Prior to that: The Trident.....

 

[bardtoob]

..."our oh so progressive North Cal restaurants" when coming to take an order (first asking a MAN!!!): would you like anything to drink? any wine for the ladies?".
(and such waiters usually get an earful from me, about "who drinks what"..... that's for sure).

Last time it happened: Buckeye Roadhouse.....
Prior to that: The Trident.....

No doubt you typically order a stiffer drink than the average and often any man in your party

 

[Tinami Amori]

No doubt you typically order a stiffer drink than the average and often any man in your party

Yes, and yet it still surprises the "progressive waiters" in California... .. and if a waiter who comes to server is other than the one who took the order, they STILL TRY TO POUR me wine... instead of giving me my long island ice tea..... (pisses the scheisse out of me..... )

 

[jenniferlyon]

She will. I am pretty certain that the rights to her biography were purchased in the process.

This is only true if Tonya still owned the rights to her autobiography at the time the movie producers bought them. If Tonya sold the rights to someone else in the intervening years and the producers bought those rights from this third party, then the third party would get the $$$, not Tonya.

 

[bardtoob]

This is only true if Tonya still owned the rights to her autobiography at the time the movie producers bought them. If Tonya sold the rights to someone else in the intervening years and the producers bought those rights from this third party, then the third party would get the $$$, not Tonya.

You are right.

I wish I was able to find a source for my assumption because I think I saw an interview that said Tonya was reasonably connected to the project ... although she is clearly not a producer or someone that will make any large profit.