I, Tonya

[MacMadame]

And I don't think Tonya would be subject to any less criticism if she had assaulted Nancy all on her own in a moment of passion.

I do. For me, the horrifying aspects of what happened is the cold-hearted calculation of planning it in advance. I'm a lot more understanding of "heat of the moment" actions, even if I don't approve or condone them.

She could no longer do what she loved, FS, and IIRC could only ever skate again on public life.

I assume you mean public ice. And, the vast majority of figure skating coaches teach on public ice. Even if they can and do teach on club ice, they also teach during public sessions. The majority of coaches have their students do ISI only or ISI and USFS events so being banned from USFS doesn't stop the majority of work.

In fact, Tonya did coach for a while and what stopped her from being successful at it was not USFS but that she punched her then boyfriend in the face and threw a hubcap at him and went to jail. She lost all her students at that point.

Poor is not equivalent to low socioeconomic status.

What do you mean?

I don't think she had a pristine reputation by a long shot. But the large fine alone would have given her pause -- and made her attorney tell her not to plea -- if she were innocent. There's no way you or anyone else can convince me she wasn't "in a pickle" for darn good reason.

I don't think you understand how our system of justice works or what it's like to be poor. Now, I think she did do what she was charged with (hinder prosecution) and also knew about it beforehand but innocent people pay large fines and plead guilty all the time when the cost of going to jail is too high.

He also said Alison Janney steals the show and for sure will be nominated in supporting and from what he has seen thus far should/could win that category for supporting actress.

I believe that!

According to Tonya, the USFSA pressured her into staying with Jeff. I don't recall if it was something about they thought she was skating better and training when she was with him. It could have been some random remark that she took and ran with, and since she had trouble pleasing the judges and getting high marks, there was some way that she justified this to herself.

From what I remember, it was some random remark from one judge. USFS as a culture is interesting that way. Judges are asked their opinions on things all the time and they gave them. Sometimes they give them without being asked as well. Each team has to decide how seriously to take that opinion. Sometimes they ignore it as a personal opinion and sometimes they take it as coming from USFS through the side door (and sometimes they are correct).

In this case, I know enough people at higher levels of USFS at the time who were appalled by Jeff and the marriage and relieved by the separation that I think it was a random judge giving a personal opinion that was interpreted by Tonya as "USFS says" for various reasons.

Nancy always seemed angry with herself ("I am angry with myself for not doing better."). Conversely, Kristi Yamaguchi was always accepting of herself ("I did my best. It did not go well, but I will be fine. I will fix it and do better next time."). The contrast in attitude always struck me as an indicator of class.

That seems more personality to me than class. I certainly know plenty of upper-class people who are always angry or who react to losing that way.

 

[vesperholly]

He also said Alison Janney steals the show and for sure will be nominated in supporting and from what he has seen thus far should/could win that category for supporting actress.

That would be the best - I love her.

 

[bardtoob]

What do you mean?

MY COMMONSENSE UNDERSTANDING: The adage goes,"You can take the girl out of the trailer park, but you can't take the trailer park out of the girl."

That seems more personality to me than class. I certainly know plenty of upper-class people who are always angry or who react to losing that way.

MY NON-SCIENTIFIC PSEUDOPSYCHOLOGY IMPRESSION: Yes, upper-class people get angry for losing, but not at themselves. I find higher-class people to be more self-accepting and they know they are loved regardless of their performance.

Also, upper middle class people have less at stake than lower class people, so negative results have less impact.

 

[allezfred]

Well, except for poor, sweet, innocent Josee Chouinard, pushed onto the ice before her time because of Tonya's broken shoelace.

Did a calculation once and actually in terms of time and with all the hoopla about Tonya’s laces, Chouinard did not get on the ice any earlier than she should have. The commotion probably got to her more rather than having to be ready.

 

[VGThuy]

It was probably the perception that she was being rushed to the ice as well.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Nancy did not come from an upper middle class background, although she certainly wasn't raised in the same environment as Tonya. As a young skater, she was very athletic, but not a princess on the ice. The Scotvolds and her agent packaged her that way as she ascended the ranks. I don't think she ever saw herself in that role, but it was a strategy on the part of her team.

Oh, i see..... all i remember is commentators saying "elegant, classy, Audrey Hepburn of ice skating".. and her "banker's wife @ a reception" style dresses, and Tonya's comments about Nancy's back-ground and life vs. hers.... Fooled me about her back-ground..
http://media.oregonlive.com/news_im...th-homicide-charge-a2068042d0a488f5_large.jpg

Nancy always seemed angry with herself ("I am angry with myself for not doing better."). Conversely, Kristi Yamaguchi was always accepting of herself ("I did my best. It did not go well, but I will be fine. I will fix it and do better next time."). The contrast in attitude always struck me as an indicator of class.

Makes sense!
Kristi was/is a treasure! always light about things even negative, gracious; she had goals and wanted to win but did not appear "hungry and needy". I bet if you put Kristi and Nancy at the same dinner table, both being hungry, Kristy would eat slowly, small bites, and leave some on the plate and appear to enjoy it, and Nancy would stare at the food, gobble it all up with elbows spread out and say something if it did not taste good....

 

[skatepixie]

It was probably the perception that she was being rushed to the ice as well.

Yeah, the whole "not yet," "not yet," "okay NOW" versus the more normal way. Even if they both take the same amount of time, one jostles you around more mentally.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Poor is not equivalent to low socioeconomic status.

What do you mean?

- A Nobleman's family can have a bankrupted estate, but not loose the title and social rank.
- An aristocratic family can flee Nazi Germany with only a coat on their backs.
- A Chinese Emperor can end up in rags in jail during cultural revolution
- Russian Royal Family members fleeing Revolution, leaving all behind, having to work as janitors and table servers in Paris..
etc....

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

Oh, i see..... all i remember is commentators saying "elegant, classy, Audrey Hepburn of ice skating"..

I think you mean Katharine Hepburn! Audrey was known for her 'pixie' haircut, which Nancy never had. Here's a comparison of Nancy & Katharine: http://oi65.tinypic.com/2cf8x12.jpg http://oi64.tinypic.com/10zzo0k.jpg

 

[Yazmeen]

This may sound harsh, but it needs to be said. My main issue with Tonya is that every time she gets back into the spolight the story changes. First, it was she was totally innocent, knew nothing. Then she admitted to hindering the prosecution. Years later she claimed Jeff and his friends took her somewhere and gang raped her at gun point to keep her quiet about the attack.

But the creme de la creme moment in her ever-shifting stories was in 2014 in the 2 documentaries during the Olympics (The Price of Gold, and the one with Mary Carillo on NBC where Nancy was also interviewed). In both films, Tonya "suddenly" claimed that she never really knew any of the guys who plotted with Jeff about the attack, they were just idiot friends of her husband's. This included Shawn Eckhardt, whom she insisted was "not her bodyguard." Carillo was clever enough to follow up that claim with 1994 video of Harding walking with Eckhardt and stating, "This is Shawn, my bodyguard..." Who knows what was actually the truth when it came to Tonya?

Yes, Tonya had a pitiful upbringing and was definitely abused at multiple times during her life. But Tonya's own worst enemy was Tonya. For Tonya, it was always someone else's fault when she didn't succeed. Hell, the whole plot supposedly swung into action because she was PO'd that she placed 4th at NHK behind Bonaly, Chen, and Sato, 2, 3, and 4 in the 1993 Worlds which Harding didn't qualify for. Apparently falling on her combination jump in the short program had nothing to do with that placement...

More than once she had the brass ring in her hand and threw it away by being lazy, not practicing, not staying in shape. Skating is a sport of standards and image, and yes, much of it often seems unfair. But Tonya knew this, yet she seemed to deliberately flout the norm and try to do everything her own way. Skating was her job. And she didn't do her job well too often. And as doctor, I've met plenty of people and patients with lousier backgrounds than Tonya who worked to be the best they could be and succeeded. And they didn't blame everyone else for everything that happened to them.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I think you mean Katharine Hepburn! Audrey was known for her 'pixie' haircut, which Nancy never had. Here's a comparison of Nancy & Katharine: http://oi65.tinypic.com/2cf8x12.jpg http://oi64.tinypic.com/10zzo0k.jpg

You are 100% right! sorry... it's work day, i go to FSU while waiting on hold on the phone and not careful. Kathrine Hepburn, not Audrey! thanks!

 

[jenniferlyon]

According to Tonya, the USFSA pressured her into staying with Jeff. I don't recall if it was something about they thought she was skating better and training when she was with him. It could have been some random remark that she took and ran with, and since she had trouble pleasing the judges and getting high marks, there was some way that she justified this to herself.

I remember hearing that at the time and took it to mean the USFSA didn't want a divorced woman as their U.S. champ.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember hearing that at the time and took it to mean the USFSA didn't want a divorced woman as their U.S. champ.

Remember when Morry Stillwell used to post here? I always felt that his attitude and politics was pretty indictative of the attitudes and politics of many of the higher-ups at USFS.

 

[Japanfan]

Nancy always seemed angry with herself ("I am angry with myself for not doing better."). Conversely, Kristi Yamaguchi was always accepting of herself ("I did my best. It did not go well, but I will be fine. I will fix it and do better next time."). The contrast in attitude always struck me as an indicator of class.

You're making an assumption that an upper class person has better self-esteem and self-acceptance than a lower class person. I don't think that's necessarily true. In fact, people from families with wealth and privilege may be under particular pressure to succeed, as it is the norm in their family.

 

[Vagabond]

You're making an assumption that an upper class person has better self-esteem and self-acceptance than a lower class person. I don't think that's necessarily true. In fact, people from families with wealth and privilege may be under particular pressure to succeed, as it is the norm in their family.

There's a separate thread about this very subject in GSD.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

USFS as a culture is interesting that way. Judges are asked their opinions on things all the time and they gave them. Sometimes they give them without being asked as well. Each team has to decide how seriously to take that opinion.

Brian Boitano's coach, Linda Leaver, used to handle unsolicited advice from USFSA judges about Brian with 'the nod and smile'. Acknowledge their comment, say nothing back, and do exactly what you were going to do in the first place.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I can't wait to see this film, and to see how all of the players are fleshed out.

Earlier today, I watched Battle Of The Sexes. What was interesting, is that the real villain of the piece wasn't Bobby Riggs, but two supporting characters, Jack Kramer (the head of the ATP who treated female tennis stars with total disdain) and Margaret Court (portrayed as a self - righteous bigot.)

 

[casken]

Remember when Morry Stillwell used to post here? I always felt that his attitude and politics was pretty indictative of the attitudes and politics of many of the higher-ups at USFS.

Didn't he admit that he told people (assumingly other USFS officials) that he saw Tonya unhook her dress in the sp at 93 nationals, even though video of the skate (which unfortunately is no longer on Youtube) proves that she didn't?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Didn't he admit that he told people (assumingly other USFS officials) that he saw Tonya unhook her dress in the sp at 93 nationals, even though video of the skate (which unfortunately is no longer on Youtube) proves that she didn't?

I have that video, and grainy as it is, the clasp on her dress definitely popped open.

I sort of get the impression that back in the day, the USFSA liked its ladies' singles skaters to fit the WASP Princess template. Only because more athletic skaters Tonya Harding, and to a lesser extent, Debi Thomas and Elaine Zayak were really respected early in their careers on the international circuit, that image had to be reconsidered.

 

[Clay]

Didn't he admit that he told people (assumingly other USFS officials) that he saw Tonya unhook her dress in the sp at 93 nationals, even though video of the skate (which unfortunately is no longer on Youtube) proves that she didn't?

Strange. That video was up at some point this year! IIRC, the dress popped just after the opening pose and she had the same bail out on her lutz similar to the Olympics.

 

[MacMadame]

You're making an assumption that an upper class person has better self-esteem and self-acceptance than a lower class person. I don't think that's necessarily true. In fact, people from families with wealth and privilege may be under particular pressure to succeed, as it is the norm in their family.

In fact, the description above of Tonya changing her story, saying things that are contradicted by video evidence, etc. reminds me very much of a certain 'billionaire' president.

Something to keep in mind both about being poor and being abused is that you are in an environment where it can be hard to make good choices. I think there was probably some of that going on with Tonya. Another thing that happens is that the unfairness leading to developing a chip on your shoulder and that creates a cycle of responding in a way that makes it worse, not better. Tonya had an enormous chip on her shoulder and it didn't help.

 

[bardtoob]

Didn't he admit that he told people (assumingly other USFS officials) that he saw Tonya unhook her dress in the sp at 93 nationals, even though video of the skate (which unfortunately is no longer on Youtube) proves that she didn't?

No, the referee genuinely thought, at the time, that she unhooked her own dress BUT LET HER RESKATE ANYWAY. There is no way the referee could have known in real time if it unhooked itself, so the referee made the choice that benefitted Tonya. The referee actually interacted with Tonya often, including as the team leader at international events, and, as far as I can tell, they irritated each other because the referee/team leader was very straight laced and Tonya always had an excuse that required an exception, like wanting to show up to the Olympics later than everybody else ... Arriving late to Skate America because of traffic and actually getting to the arena by riding in the back of a truck that was driving down a one-way road in the wrong direction.

Note: I am a fan of Tonya's skating, but, when a list is made of Tonya's drama even prior to the wack, it becomes clear Tonya was not easy to deal with from the perspective of organizers.

ETA: Didn't the unhooked dress incident happen at 1993 Nationals, and that was a particularly bad splat fest where the only one that was watchable was a 12 year old Michelle Kwan; Michelle probably should have gotten the silver over Lisa Ervin but was left in 6th because she was 12.

 

[Yazmeen]

Another thing that happens is that the unfairness leading to developing a chip on your shoulder and that creates a cycle of responding in a way that makes it worse, not better. Tonya had an enormous chip on her shoulder and it didn't help.

Chip??? Are you kidding? Try a pole the size of a Scottish caber.

I do want to see this movie. But my biggest concern about the movie is that it's going to make people think Tonya is some poor, innocent angel who was wronged by the wealthy and the figure skating system and who deserves more sympathy. And yet again, the public will forget about the actual incident. An athlete was attacked and harmed. But it was that snotty Nancy Kerrigan, and she wasn't really hurt, and she whined "Why, me" like a spoiled brat...We've seen quite enough over the past 23 years almost implying that the attack and injury were no big deal to almost that she deserved what happened to her because she was such a bitch.

Bleah. We don't need revisionist history. Tonya committed a crime, and probably more than she was charged with. I don't wish her ill, but she'd finally gone away and gotten out of the spotlight and was living a quiet life, and oh, boy, here we go again!!!

 

[Tinami Amori]

Remember when Morry Stillwell used to post here? I always felt that his attitude and politics was pretty indictative of the attitudes and politics of many of the higher-ups at USFS.

I had few PM conversations with Morry, and found him to be very intelligent, well spoken, and reasonable.

I sort of get the impression that back in the day, the USFSA liked its ladies' singles skaters to fit the WASP Princess template. Only because more athletic skaters Tonya Harding, and to a lesser extent, Debi Thomas and Elaine Zayak were really respected early in their careers on the international circuit, that image had to be reconsidered.

Just out of curiosity, which Unidentified Amazon Tribe was Elaine Zayak from? http://polishsportshof.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Zayak-Elaine-r2.jpg ... She looks WASPy to me.... Which is not a bad thing in my book when it comes to morals and work ethics....

In fact, the description above of Tonya changing her story, saying things that are contradicted by video evidence, etc. reminds me very much of a certain 'billionaire' president.

Interesting you said that.... ..... it seems that the "loosing opposition" to certain "billionaire" president, was acting just like Tonya's gang, trying to give knee wacks because it was not sure she can win... and still attempting it, unsuccessfully so far..

In fact, the description above of Tonya changing her story, saying things that are contradicted by video evidence, etc. reminds me very much of a certain 'billionaire' president.

Something to keep in mind both about being poor and being abused is that you are in an environment where it can be hard to make good choices. Tonya had an enormous chip on her shoulder and it didn't help.

Oprah had even more difficult circumstances, and yet she managed... to succeed without a chip.

 

[Areski]

I can't wait to see this film, and to see how all of the players are fleshed out.

Earlier today, I watched Battle Of The Sexes. What was interesting, is that the real villain of the piece wasn't Bobby Riggs, but two supporting characters, Jack Kramer (the head of the ATP who treated female tennis stars with total disdain) and Margaret Court (portrayed as a self - righteous bigot.)

Well Margaret Court truly is a self-righteous homophobic bigot.

 

[bardtoob]

Just out of curiosity, which Unidentified Amazon Tribe was Elaine Zayak from? http://polishsportshof.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Zayak-Elaine-r2.jpg ... She looks WASPy to me.... Which is not a bad thing in my book when it comes to morals and work ethics....

. . .

 

[Tinami Amori]

Well Margaret Court truly is a self-righteous homophobic bigot.

I don't understand why journalists are taking interviews still from this 75 year old nut case? was not her name removed from some important Tennis roster already?

 

[Areski]

I don't understand why journalists are taking interviews still from this 75 year old nut case? was not her name removed from some important Tennis roster already?

I don't get that either. Why make headlines with that, no ideas at all? Are they really that lazy?

 

[VGThuy]

Just out of curiosity, which Unidentified Amazon Tribe was Elaine Zayak from? http://polishsportshof.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Zayak-Elaine-r2.jpg ...

New Jersey. That’s said out of love.

 

[Tinami Amori]

New Jersey. That’s said out of love.

oh, i get it..... Snooki's relative.. http://i2.wp.com/radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/38137pcn_snookiice09.jpg?fit=1380,880