From Russia with Love [#35]: Winter 2019

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,406
I know this is a figure skating forum, but the Russia ban isn't about figure skating. It's hardly focused on this sport - we're probably giving the sport too much credit to imagine this whole ban over summer, winter Olympics, FIFA World Cup etc is about a few female junior figure skaters. Figure skating is just collateral damage.

My question is why couldn't Russia just do what WADA asked?
 

taz'smum

as @Jesche says - мама knows best
Messages
2,344
If Russia can't send full team to the worlds, they will have to go through Nebelhorn trophy and qualify one athlete/team per event, so even a full team looks unlikely for olympics. In the ladies that could be just one athlete of Kostornaia, Scherbakova or Trusova. This is a perfect hit job.

Why wouldn't Russia be able to send a full ladies team to worlds?
Kostornaia, Scherbakova and Trusova are all too young to be on the lists of athletes mentioned on the original lists used to not invite athletes to the South Korean Olympics, and all 3 are clean or they would not have been at the GP final.
So i cannot imagine why they will not be cleared to compete at Worlds.
 

Domshabfan

Lady Hale's Brooch
Messages
9,500
Why wouldn't Russia be able to send a full ladies team to worlds?
Kostornaia, Scherbakova and Trusova are all too young to be on the lists of athletes mentioned on the original lists used to not invite athletes to the South Korean Olympics, and all 3 are clean or they would not have been at the GP final.
So i cannot imagine why they will not be cleared to compete at Worlds.
If Russia is barred from the worlds then they can't send full team, if the event is deemed a major event.
 

Domshabfan

Lady Hale's Brooch
Messages
9,500
By that logic, Russia would not have been able to send a full team to the Olympics, but they did
Since worlds act as the qualifier for qualifying more than one athlete, Russia won't be able send more than one athlete/team. They will have to go through Nebelhorn to qualify the one team/athlete per event. Last olympics they were not banned from previous worlds, so they could qualify more than one athlete/team.
 

Maofan7

Adjusting to culture shock of working from home
Messages
19,830
If Russia can't send full team to the worlds, they will have to go through Nebelhorn trophy and qualify one athlete/team per event, so even a full team looks unlikely for olympics. In the ladies that could be just one athlete of Kostornaia, Scherbakova or Trusova. This is a perfect hit job.
I imagine that will now come down to whether the ISU classifies "international athletes from Russia" (or whatever they are going to call them now) as equivalent to a country for qualification purposes
 
Last edited:

Domshabfan

Lady Hale's Brooch
Messages
9,500
I imagine that will now come down to whether the ISU classifies "international athletes from Russia" (or whatever they are going to call the now) as equivalent to a country for qualification purposes
First will be CAS appeal, I can't see CAS over turning anything after the backlash for letting Russian athlete compete at last Olympics.
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,740
I believe that among figure skaters only Bukin, Stolbova and probably Katsalapov’s participation would be a question.
Bukin and Stolbova were not allowed to compete in Pyongyang and since Sinitsina/Katsalapov didn’t qualify to Olympics we don’t know if they would have been allowed or not..
Others are either too young, either have already competed as neutral athletes.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,406
I imagine that will now come down to whether the ISU classifies "international athletes from Russia" (or whatever they are going to call the now) as equivalent to a country for qualification purposes
Given that the Russians are the big money tickets in skating, I'm sure the ISU will move mountains to make it so.

Which is fair enough. Figure skaters are rigorously tested internationally very very regularly. Unlike some other sports, where athletes only turn up internationally ever so often, there's less opportunity to hide away at home and dope if you are a skater. The top skaters would have had countless tests done in all countries this season already.

It's just such a shame that figure skaters have been caught up in this mess. If Moscow labs were really deleting and manipulating data to hide doping from athletes in other sports they need to just get lost and stop causing problems for skating.
 

taz'smum

as @Jesche says - мама knows best
Messages
2,344
I imagine that will now come down to whether the ISU classifies "international athletes from Russia" (or whatever they are going to call the now) as equivalent to a country for qualification purposes
Playing devil's advocate. If the athletes from Russia are considered independent athletes and not a team, then there would be no limit to the number of them that could qualify for Worlds as independent athletes as long as they have the qualifying minimums.
 

Gris

Well-Known Member
Messages
401
I believe that among figure skaters only Bukin, Stolbova and probably Katsalapov’s participation would be a question.
Bukin and Stolbova were not allowed to compete in Pyongyang and since Sinitsina/Katsalapov didn’t qualify to Olympics we don’t know if they would have been allowed or not..
Others are either too young, either have already competed as neutral athletes.
But Bukin wasn't even at Sochi and still got 'uninvited' for no given reason so it's not impossible that others would experience the same. I generally agree with the ban, but it's a shame that clean athletes are the ones who are paying price, and cases like Bukin and Stolbova are just absurd.

The quotas should not be a problem though, as I think those Russia has earned would be transferred to individuals from Russia, as in 2018 Olympics.
 

Regretla

Member
Messages
38
So Bukin is out for four years unless he did something to help his situation all these years and if Mozer was right Katsalapov too but I'm not sure cause Bobrova and Solovyev were allowed to compete and Zhulin won't just let this be.When no explanations are given it's hard to guess. The selfish fan in me wants the ladies to be at least able to compete at Worlds, and the ISU knows they bring the audiences in.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,406
It's worth pointing out that South Africa was banned from the Olympics for about 24 years, so it's not like long bans haven't happened before.

But it is 2.5 years or more to the next Olympics, there's longer for these issues to be addressed for skaters such as Bukin etc. Last time around it was done at the dead last minute.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
Messages
20,003
According to Norwegian media, Mishin said to R-Sport: "We should host our own Olympic games, if CAS doesn't change their minds".
With blackjack and hookers.

From my understanding, the issue is not Rusada or doping, but the behavior of the officials during the investigation process. And since WADA doesn't have a way to act against the ministers, it punishes the country by forbidding the usage of national symbols. Hopefully, it means that this time there won't be random disqualifications.
 

love_skate2011

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,713
so if all under neutral , does that mean no quota on the number of entries ? so even Med can compete,

or will they do the same Olympic Athletes of Russia under neutral flag.

they are high neough in seasons best and if they all go to a new qualifying as individual neutrals, they will all qualify
Med, Kostornaia, Shecerbakova, Trusova, Zagitova even Tuk
 

alj5

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,389
To be honest I fail to see why “state sponsored” doping is so much worse than “privately motivated” doping...
The difference is that "state sponsored" doping comes from a whole organizational level. Think East German female swimmers in the 1970s and their subsequent medical problems. It may not even be understood by the coaches or athletes that X medication or product is a banned substance (or future banned substance().

"Privately motivated" doping is the decision that takes place on the individual athlete level. It's the athlete (or coach/parent/etc) that chooses to take a substance.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be a steroid or medication, simply having a blood transfusion right before a competition significantly increases the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood (and therefore performance). This is particularly a problem in endurance events (cycling, long distance swimming/speed skating/running, etc).

Do I believe that the vast majority of skaters who have tested positive for banned substances used those substances for a performance-enhancing reasons? No. Figure skating isn't really a sport where substances or transfusions will help boost performance.
But when you're a competitive athlete, you will do anything that is legal to get an edge. And the temptation is there to do things that may not be legal. I swam in college, and competed at two US olympic trials in the 1990s. I had a teammate that would eat a handful of flinstones vitamins before every meet (children's vitamin in the US that tastes like candy). I had teammates that would use 4 puffs of their albuterol inhaler before their event. And I had teammates that were using EPO or blood doping (like Lance Armstrong) before it was technically illegal (aka before we had a test for it).
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,406
so if all under neutral , does that mean no quota on the number of entries ? so even Med can compete,

or will they do the same Olympic Athletes of Russia under neutral flag.

they are high neough in seasons best and if they all go to a new qualifying as individual neutrals, they will all qualify
Med, Kostornaia, Shecerbakova, Trusova, Zagitova even Tuk
They'd have to limit it to a quota for athletes from Russia.

If it was just open slather for skaters not representing a flag and appearing as neutrals, I can imagine some skaters from other nations might be tempted to cut themselves loose as well.

As much as I love the idea of Empress Tukt representing herself as ruler of her own domain and under her own Land of Tukt flag at the forthcoming World Champs or Olympics...
 

love_skate2011

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,713
They'd have to limit it to a quota for athletes from Russia.

If it was just open slather for skaters not representing a flag and appearing as neutrals, I can imagine some skaters from other nations might be tempted to cut themselves loose as well.

As much as I love the idea of Empress Tukt representing herself as ruler of her own domain and under her own Land of Tukt flag at the forthcoming World Champs or Olympics...
so they could still form an althlete from russia with neutral flag to get quotas ?
oh well the scenario of all 6 russians competing was too good to be true then.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
Messages
20,003
so neutral will mean no quota ?

so Med, Zagitova, Kostornaia, Shcherbkaova, Trusova, Tuk could all compete !
I dont care much about the flags anyway, I care about the athletes
No, neutral means no flag.
They still represent the national skating federation, so the team representing the national skating federation will get 3 quotas. If they compete as "no country" then they could probably try to get their own quota. But I don't know how it works anyway.
 

love_skate2011

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,713
No, neutral means no flag.
They still represent the national skating federation, so the team representing the national skating federation will get 3 quotas. If they compete as "no country" then they could probably try to get their own quota. But I don't know how it works anyway.
so they are like competing as a new neutral made country with the same 3 quotas ?
I was hoping the silver lining was unlimited number of neutrals
 

layman

Well-Known Member
Messages
250
I was looking over the protocols for Golden Spin and Tuktamysheva is still only doing 7 triples. Why won't she do that 8th triple?

She's capable of it. She has done it before, but she's been leaving out that 8th triple all season. She is going to need that 8th triple at Russian Nationals (plus a quad) if she hopes to get a podium finish.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,406
Assuming he's actually clean, Ivan Bukin must be the unluckiest skater. :(
I think if they were to ban him from two Olympics in a row it would be crazy if there isn't even a positive test. Athletes get shorter bans after being caught red handed with a positive test.
 

Bigbird

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,311
I was looking over the protocols for Golden Spin and Tuktamysheva is still only doing 7 triples. Why won't she do that 8th triple?

She's capable of it. She has done it before, but she's been leaving out that 8th triple all season. She is going to need that 8th triple at Russian Nationals (plus a quad) if she hopes to get a podium finish.
With all that's going on she may honestly call it a day and live her life on her own terms, right?
 

Eisfee

Well-Known Member
Messages
276
Assuming he's actually clean, Ivan Bukin must be the unluckiest skater. :(
If he doesn't can go to Worlds either and S/K also can't go it's really bad for Russian Ice Dance and their upcoming spots...

What a terrible situation for all clean athletes. Could ruin many careers....
 

soogar

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,697
To be honest I fail to see why “state sponsored” doping is so much worse than “privately motivated” doping...
I'll argue that state sponsored doping is worse because it removes the choice from the athletes. East Germany was notorious for its doping regimes and many athletes were victims. There's an interesting documentary on an East German shotputter who received so much testosterone that she "became" a man, eventually she did have a sex change to become a man because internally she was no longer a woman.

At least with private doping, the athlete is making the conscious decision to take a substance, and it's not forced upon them by the state. I'm a bodybuilding fan. and they all take substances to achieve their physiques- I don't think there's anything wrong with athletes taking substances to recover and improve performance, but unfortunately the Olympics has these requirements for "fairness," even though there's nothing inherently "fair" about athletic competition. People are born with certain physiques, have funding for better training, better coaches, better doctors etc. In everyday life, people are always reaching for a pharmaceutical edge via supplements and drugs (Ritalin to study better). There is so much research in drugs to enhance wellness and performance. I don't understand why professional athletes cannot avail themselves of these substances. They put their bodies through a lot and should be able to access the best substances to maintain their bodies and enhance performance.

There's a lot of risks with steroids and supplementation, it's much better when the individual athlete is aware of the risks and makes the decision than the state sponsoring a program.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information