From Russia With Love [#38]: Fall/Winter 2020

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Scott512

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As far as the XO skates today I've seen KV and Anna's and they were great. But the microphone picked up Anna possibly breathing heavily again.
 

NAOTMAA

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I just don't get it. Do people not notice that sports is happening all over the world? Maybe some people here only follow figure skating and nothing else?
Skating fans can be best described as that over protective mother who smothers their child. Always trying to wrap them in cotton wool at the slightest hint of something not normal.

I'm certain it's the only sports fandom in the world that acts like that. In every other sport athletes play no matter the obstacle and nobody looks or questions twice. Only skating fans would put them on trial and give the third degree
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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I think Trusova was someone who really benefitted from Daniil choreography even though I'm not a fan of his, when I saw her live as a junior I thought she had such interesting, eclectic energy on the ice and despite not being as technically complete as Shcherbakova and Kostornaia, I actually had the most fun watching her and became a fan. Her programs this season just seem a bit "store-bought" if that makes sense. I thought the placements were fair. Hope she gets some rest to recover properly from her injury.

Also general question about Russian skating, but is it possible for there be separate threads dedicated to each discipline? I find it a bit strange that for Russia where every field is so deep there is just one Russian skating thread here.
I would love to see a separate thread for each disciple in Russia, but keep this general Russian thread, for interviews, articles, etc.

Switching to Trusova. I can’t find the exact post but it said that Sasha wanted to do four quads but Plushy wanted her to skate a clean LP with just two quads. Apparently Plushy won the argument. Sasha delivered a clean performance but ended up with a bronze. Sasha had a similar issue with Eteri, so it seems she changed coaches but the new coach did the same thing. Held her back.

I have a different perspective on this. Right or wrong, nobody knows. From the coaches’ perspective this makes sense. This is logical. From the skater’s perspective it does not. Sasha is not Plushy, who was an obedient student. Sasha is a free spirit. She was sensational as a junior and a fresh senior. I loved her Fire. When she started losing to Alena and Anna, people tried to change her. It has not worked.

I cannot help noticing that Anna delivered a great performance even though the coaches and even her parents told her to withdraw from the LP. I think the adults are misjudging some of these young ladies. May be Sasha would have landed four clean quads. We will never know. A clean program with two quads is never going to be enough for Sasha to win when other Russian ladies are also Landing two clean quads. She has to attempt 4 or 5 quads. Sasha is a risk taker. She wants to win by taking the risk, and not by hoping that others make mistakes.

I don’t think she is satisfied by skating a clean and coservative program, regardless of the placement.

Sasha is at her best when she does what She wants to do, just like Anna. I think the coaches need to turn her loose. She will have some poor performances but as long as she is willing to fight, she is going in the right direction. The mental game needs to fit her, what she is as a person. I won’t be surprised if she looks for a coach who will do just that.
 
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Tobbe

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I would love to see a separate thread for each disciple in Russia, but keep this general Russian thread, for interviews, articles, etc.

Switching to Trusova. I can’t find the exact post but it said that Sasha wanted to do four quads but Plushy wanted her to skate a clean LP with just two quads. Apparently Plushy won the argument. Sasha delivered a clean performance but ended up with a bronze. Sasha had a similar issue with Eteri, so it seems she changed coaches but the new coach did the same thing. Held her back.

I have a different perspective on this. Right or wrong, nobody knows. From the coaches’ perspective this makes sense. This is logical. From the skater’s perspective it does not. Sasha is not Plushy, who was an obedient student. Sasha is a free spirit. She was sensatio all as a junior and a fresh senior. I loved her Fire. When she started losing to Alena and Anna, people tried to change her. It has not worked.

I cannot help noticing that Anna delivered a great performance even though the coaches and even her parents told her to withdraw from the LP. I think the adults are misjudging some of these young ladies. May be Sasha would have landed four clean quads. We will never know. A clean program with two quads is never going to be enough for Sasha to win when other Russian ladies are also Landing two clean quads. She has to attempt 4 or 5 quads. Sasha is a risk taker. She wants to win by taking the risk, and not by hoping that others make mistakes.

I don’t think she is satisfied by skating a clean and coservative program, regardless of the placement.

Sasha is at her best when she does what She wants to do, just like Anna. I think the coaches need to turn her loose. She will have some poor performances but as long as she is willing to fight, she is going in the right direction. The mental game needs to fit her, what she is as a person. I won’t be surprised if she looks for a coach who will do just that.
Sasha is injured. She can't do 4Ts 4Ss and 3As right now. That's why she switched to two 4Lzs.
She acutally had the exact same layout as Anna did at GP last year.
 

Scott512

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Well, they were a bit behind after the short (remember Maria had a fall). About 20 points behind in the long. Daria had higher tech plus both little Liza and Maria had URs and again weaker tech, while Daria had no mistakes.

But I agree, Daria's program is not my cup of tea, I loved Maria's and Liza's more, but the point system doesn't work that way. And unfortunately it doesn't take into account what you and I think... ;)
I'm not saying that Daria is not better than they are or wasn't better than they aren't you can certainly make the case that she was but the point differential was startling.
I disagreed with Usacheva’s high marks because she had a stumble and a few more bobbles.
This means the eteri bounce is real.

Looking back to yesterday it was just an incredible day of skating with so many great and clutch performances. The season has been so tough and such a mass for the top 3 to come out and skate like that was incredible.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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Sasha is injured. She can't do 4Ts 4Ss and 3As right now. That's why she switched to two 4Lzs.
She acutally had the exact same layout as Anna did at GP last year.
I read about her injury in Tinami’s post. She has never landed the 4S in competitions, in my memory. She always used to start with it and fall. So I was hoping that she would start with a quad that she landed consistently.

She cannot win by having the same layout as Anna, who is much more developed artistically. It would be the worst strategy. She must do more quads to get higher TES.

From Tinami’s post, Sasha wanted to do four quads in the LP. So I don’t believe that she cannot do the other quads, but her consistency would be lower. She still wanted to go fir four quads. I believe the skaters know their bodies better than anyone else.
 

Tobbe

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I read about her injury in Tinami’s post. She has never landed the 4S in competitions, in my memory. She always used to start with it and fall. So I was hoping that she would start with a quad that she landed consistently.

She cannot win by having the same layout as Anna, who is much more developed artistically. It would be the worst strategy. She must do more quads to get higher TES.

From Tinami’s post, Sasha wanted to do four quads in the LP. So I don’t believe that she cannot do the other quads, but her consistency would be lower. She still wanted to go fir four quads. I believe the skaters know their bodies better than anyone else.
She landed a perfect 4S at Russian Cup Stage Four a month ago.
Then she fell on it at GP Russia.

She landed it only once last season at Japan Open.

I think though this was a good strategy with two 4Lzs. Her tech points was 97.75 here. Last year at Japan Open she had 97.51 with 4 landed quads. She has only been higher twice - Nepela 98.34 (3 landed quads) and SC 100.20 (3 landed quads).

So, going clean is essential. I think this was something to build upon.
 
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NAOTMAA

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She landed a perfect 4S at Russian Cup Stage Four a month ago.
Then she fell on it at GP Russia.

She landed it only once last season at Japan Open.

I think though this was a good strategy with two 4Lzs. Her tech points was 97.75 here. Last year at Japan Open she had 97.51 with 4 landed quads. She has only been higher twice - Nepela 98.34 (3 landed quads) and SC 100.20 (3 landed quads).

So, going clean is essential. I think this was something to build upon.
But is 2 4Lz and 2 3Lz a risk she would want to take over and over? If by chance one of the 4Lz get a ur doesn't that mean she risks getting one of her 3Lz invalidated?

i assume this layout was only done because of her injury and it will change again once she is totally healthy. It must have taken A LOT of convincing by Plushkenko to get her to water down for nationals. But with the results as they were I wonder how long he can win against her if she insists on going back to 4 quads or such.
 

Tobbe

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But is 2 4Lz and 2 3Lz a risk she would want to take over and over? If by chance one of the 4Lz get a ur doesn't that mean she risks getting one of her 3Lz invalidated?

i assume this layout was only done because of her injury and it will change again once she is totally healthy. It must have taken A LOT of convincing by Plushkenko to get her to water down for nationals. But with the results as they were I wonder how long he can win against her if she insists on going back to 4 quads or such.
It worked out just fine for Anna last year. She URed the 2nd 4Lz twice and had it downgraded once (Europeans 4Lz<<) but it was never downgraded to a 3Lz so her last 3Lz was never invalidated.

I think this two 4Lzs layout is a good moneybringer. If she can stabilize this and later add a 4T (and take out a 2A) that would add +6.20 in BV + GOE.

Adding a 4th quad is not worth it IMO. Then she has to take out a 3F and the added BV would only be +4.20. But the risk is much higher. And in addition, a 4 quad program hurts the PCS a bit as she has a long preparation for each quad. Also, she tends to get tired and fall on triples later in the program.

Let's face it. I don't think Sasha will ever catch Anna in PCS and spins. So what to do?

I think the best strategy would be to get that 3A stable. Then she can have a 3A in the short and one in the long instead of a third quad. It would be less risky and more economical with her stamina in the long.
 
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NAOTMAA

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It worked out just fine for Anna last year. She URed the 2nd 4Lz twice and had it downgraded once (Europeans 4Lz<<) but it was never downgraded to a 3Lz so her last 3Lz were never invalidated.

I think this two 4Lzs layout is a good moneybringer. If she can stabilize this and later add a 4T (and take out a 2A) that would add +6.20 in BV + GOE.

Adding a 4th quad is not worth it IMO. Then she has to take out a 3F and the added BV would only be +4.20. But the risk is much higher. And in addition, a 4 quad program hurts the PCS a bit as she has a long preparation for each quad. Also, she tends to get tired and fall on triples later in the program.

Let's face it. I don't think Sasha will ever catch Anna in PCS and spins. So what to do?

I think the best strategy would be to get that 3A stable. Then she can have a 3A in the short and one in the long instead of a third quad. It would be less risky and more economical with her stamina in the long.
Thank you for the explanation.

Honestly I get the impression Aleksandra doesn't think about the math. She simply see's 4 quads and thinks "wow not only does that make history but surely nobody can top that! How can I lose with all that?"

People say she wants to make history and be the trailblazer and that's why she's so stubborn and goes for it. But she also clearly wants to win too. It's hard and perhaps not realistic to have both now but people had a hard time convincing her of that. At least that's the impression I get
 

Tobbe

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Thank you for the explanation.

Honestly I get the impression Aleksandra doesn't think about the math. She simply see's 4 quads and thinks "wow not only does that make history but surely nobody can top that! How can I lose with all that?"

People say she wants to make history and be the trailblazer and that's why she's so stubborn and goes for it. But she also clearly wants to win too. It's hard and perhaps not realistic to have both now but people had a hard time convincing her of that. At least that's the impression I get
Yes, so do many Sasha fans as well. They think that 4 quads is unbeatable, but if you do the math it's not. It's too much risk and one mistake kills the score immediately. Shcherbakova and Kostornaia proved that against Trusova already last season.
 

Dobre

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It's too much risk and one mistake kills the score immediately.
But . . . Nathan;). People thought 4 quads was too much risk until it wasn't. Trusova is in a bit of a similar position to where he was early in his senior career. She can't bring in the PCS to defeat her closest competition with the same jumps. So a. she needs to work on the PCS. And b. she needs to own her technical advantage.

But she needs to stay healthy. If she isn't healthy right now, then it seems she made some wise choices for this event.

(Unrelated comment: The warhorse music selections among the final flight did nothing for me).
 

Bigbird

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Yes, so do many Sasha fans as well. They think that 4 quads is unbeatable, but if you do the math it's not. It's too much risk and one mistake kills the score immediately. Shcherbakova and Kostornaia proved that against Trusova already last season.
Whatever she does 3 or 4 quads, everything has to be squeaky clean. In Russia you cannot beat the internal politricks what a skater needs to do is make the team!
 

Natanielle825

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Lots of interesting points. On the one hand, if Sasha wants to be the trailblazer and show off all the quads she can do (and we know she can do them probably most of the time in practice), she'll resent anyone who tries to stop her and it is ultimately up to her what mark she wants to make on the sport. On the other hand, it is the coach's job to have more sense and objectivity than the student, to better weigh the risk of injury or points lost. Does she need more? Depends what for. To make the Olympic team next year, it would depend on whether Kostornaia or Usacheva have triple axels, if they don't then probably not. I'm sure Anna and Kamila will both try to have more quads by next years too, so she probably needs more if she wants a shot at beating them at the Olympics, her PCS is just never gonna catch up.
 

karmena

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Lots of interesting points. On the one hand, if Sasha wants to be the trailblazer and show off all the quads she can do (and we know she can do them probably most of the time in practice), she'll resent anyone who tries to stop her and it is ultimately up to her what mark she wants to make on the sport. On the other hand, it is the coach's job to have more sense and objectivity than the student, to better weigh the risk of injury or points lost. Does she need more? Depends what for. To make the Olympic team next year, it would depend on whether Kostornaia or Usacheva have triple axels, if they don't then probably not. I'm sure Anna and Kamila will both try to have more quads by next years too, so she probably needs more if she wants a shot at beating them at the Olympics, her PCS is just never gonna catch up.

A good point though I completely disagree.... IMHO Sasha has a huge potential to improve in PCS department. I am more than sure she has this potential and that she would be unbeatable...if the door of that potential opens up and completely.
I dare to say, that Sasha eventually would be thrilled to discover a new way of expressing herself... it might be as to get the wings of freedom. But...it is a very difficult path to go, especially for the girl with win-oriented character. She did not like to work with Elena I, did't she? Oh, difficult job for coaches.

I really respect Plushenko and all the job he has done with Sasha up to know. She has improved a lot and especially in PCS.
 

NAOTMAA

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Obviously Aleksandra's PCS can go up but unless Anna, Kamila or Alena start regressing on all levels she won't pass or match them. If Daria gets a 3A she will pass Aleksandra because its already clear the federation thinks she's artistic and international junior judges thought so too.

Unfair as it is everybody has already been labeled by the federation and international judges and breaking that is usually near impossible to do. The only way Aleksandra can do that is if she has one of those major Michelle Kwan Salome type transformations. The progress she has made isn't enough put her on the same level as them. It needs to be earthshattering
 

karmena

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Indeed it needs to be earth-shattering. Agree. But she has a potential to "shatter the earth" IF that potential is brought out.
 

Spun Silver

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The difference in skating skills between Sasha on the one hand and Kamila, Anna, and Daria on the other (Kamila being the standout) was striking. I wonder why Sasha hasn't worked harder on those. Does she not think they would help her at all? It's too bad. I don't think that is Plushy's forte so it's a real pity she didn't like working with Elena.
 

Scott512

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Instead, let's analyze her weight like she's not a person but an object.

No more discussion of teenagers' weights.

But whatever we just need her healthy again and skating because she brings so much to the sport.

Instead, let's analyze her weight like she's not a person but an object.

No more discussion of teenagers' weights.
Then someone should not bring it up that said skater needs to lose 10 kilos. I think that's the most astonishing thing I've ever read at this forum.

I only speak for myself and I just want to see Aliona get her triple axel back and skate great again.
 

NadezhdaNadya

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The difference in skating skills between Sasha on the one hand and Kamila, Anna, and Daria on the other (Kamila being the standout) was striking. I wonder why Sasha hasn't worked harder on those. Does she not think they would help her at all? It's too bad. I don't think that is Plushy's forte so it's a real pity she didn't like working with Elena.
And the skating skills between Alyona and the rest of the Russian girls is even bigger. Alyona is all time best.
 

Prancer

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Then someone should not bring it up that said skater needs to lose 10 kilos.
No, someone shouldn't. But if people find such comments objectionable, the preferred response is that to report the post (and thank you to those who did) rather than respond and perpetuate it.

I responded to your post because it was the last post on the subject, not because I was singling you out.

I hope there will be no further discussion of this issue in this thread.
 

Dobre

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The difference in skating skills between Sasha on the one hand and Kamila, Anna, and Daria on the other (Kamila being the standout) was striking. I wonder why Sasha hasn't worked harder on those. Does she not think they would help her at all?
I don't see how you know how much she has worked on them. That is like saying one doesn't know why Jason hasn't worked harder on a quad or Hanyu hasn't worked harder on a lutz or Mirai hasn't worked harder on being consistent, etc.

People work hard on things that aren't their strengths. That doesn't make those things suddenly stand out against people for whom those things are their strengths. Often people do develop enough to bring in higher marks in areas that were once weaknesses. Other times, they develop enough to become fully balanced skaters. Or they even go through a 180 and improve their presentation while losing technical competitiveness. But we cannot see--just by watching a competition--how much someone works on this or that.
 

Spun Silver

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I don't see how you know how much she has worked on them. That is like saying one doesn't know why Jason hasn't worked harder on a quad or Hanyu hasn't worked harder on a lutz or Mirai hasn't worked harder on being consistent, etc.

People work hard on things that aren't their strengths. That doesn't make those things suddenly stand out against people for whom those things are their strengths. Often people do develop enough to bring in higher marks in areas that were once weaknesses. Other times, they develop enough to become fully balanced skaters. Or they even go through a 180 and improve their presentation while losing technical competitiveness. But we cannot see--just by watching a competition--how much someone works on this or that.
Good point. I've heard anecdotally that all she cares about is the jumps, but you're quite right, I don't have any knowledge or even unverified reports of what she works on and how much.
 

Bigbird

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It all comes down to Trusova herself. When she sees Akatieva and Sophie S. breaking in with both artistry and the quads maybe then. Maybe she's reached her ceiling? Eteri and team tried for years to help her artistry but it just didn't work out. Sasha loves to jump. There has been improvement mind you but the other girls have excelled even more so in all aspects. It's going to be interesting how all this plays out.
 

Frau Muller

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Russian TV news shows are prominently featuring Navka’s updated holiday show, Ruslan & Ludmila (Russian fairy tale on ice), with new decors & lighting effects:
 
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