From Russia with love [#29]: Spring 2018 and beyond

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ChiquitaBanana said:
Triple loop in combination put atletes more prine to hip injuries because of the torque applied to the hip.

Mai Miyahara, Fleur Maxwell, Alyssa Czisny, Naomi Nari Nam, Michelle Kwan, Alexei Yagudin, Ksenia Makarova, Tim Goebel, Todd Eldredge, Kevin Reynolds, Deanna Stellato, Yuna Kim, Johnny Weir, Elizabet TURSYNBAEVA , Evan Lysacek, Plushenko, Elvis Stojko, Jennifer Kirk, Nathan Chen...

Some got suregery, the others didn't but were sidelined for hip injury. There are much more, but I got tired of searching... :p
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Oh good! thanks for listing it all! so.... i guess it is not just the "Russian jumping beans" problem.... :D
 
I’ve said it a thousand times before, but I will repeat it again for those posters inclined to complain and carry on about "tiny girls" injuring themselves doing jumps that they feel these young ladies are not equipped to do…

Petition the ISU to have the age limit raised (e.g., 20yrs and up, eliminating teens) because that is what some posters really want, what really bothers them. ;) The goal, if they are being honest, is to get these younger ladies (aka "little girls," "jumping beans," "baby ballerinas," etc.) out of the game, right?? ;) Then, they can predictably pick up where they’ve left off, but this time complaining and carrying on about how their favorites are no longer age-eligible if raising the age limit should ever happen. While they’re at it, they'll need to make sure, just to be fair, ;) that they also suggest to the ISU that all medals be stripped of those in past competitions who competed underage, just to stay consistent - you know, (y) with the new age limit proposal. Make it retroactive... :oops: No?! I didn’t think so… ;) :p :2faced:
 
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hanca said:
How exactly do you know know that all those skaters had the hip damage caused by jumping triple loop as a second jump in combination? I had hip surgery from skating, and trust me that it wasn’t from loop-loop combinations.
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I did not mean to imply these skaters got hip injury because of 3Lo in combo. But the fact remains that 3 loop as a second part of a combo but the hip in jeopardy much more than a triple toe. Studies are easy to find online and these kinds of matter are part of my job...
 
Tinami Amori said:
Oh good! thanks for listing it all! so.... i guess it is not just the "Russian jumping beans" problem.... :D
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It is not. I have never implied so. But if the Russian jumping beans are not monitored on how much they jump, they will be added to this list.

Btw, your point was that there was no epidemic of hip injury among top skaters.
 
ChiquitaBanana said:
Btw, your point was that there was no epidemic of hip injury among top skaters.
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:D i did say that, but you're partially right to some extend. for example MF hardly had that many triples, NNN too, Yagudin's hip issues were inborn, etc. Most elite sports lead to permanent bone or other body damage. It's a fact. I am arguing this issue pretty much because each time Russians get any kind of competitive advantage a bunch of people start complaining, some under pretense of "carrying about the athletes", when in fact the motivation is jealousy and resentment of others' success. So my point is while athletes yes, have physical consequences to their bodies, and yes it is discussed at times, but not with same intensity.

By the way, the raised issues with Quads "because Nathan can do all of them and others can't" is just a disgusting in sentiment. People should try to beat the best by doing better themselves, not by hindering them or taking something away from them. bloody socialists... :lol:
 
Was it already announced where the nationals are and I have missed it or we are waiting till may 22nd?
 
ChiquitaBanana said:
I did not mean to imply these skaters got hip injury because of 3Lo in combo. But the fact remains that 3 loop as a second part of a combo but the hip in jeopardy much more than a triple toe. Studies are easy to find online and these kinds of matter are part of my job...
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Somehow I can’t see why doing triple loop on its own is less dangerous than doing loop as a second jump in combination. The technique is exactly the same.
 
taz'smum said:
Also Sofia Polishuk has teamed up with Grigory YAKUSHEV. ( can be seen in this Instagram post of Krylova's group)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BiFgZt_B9IW/?taken-by=katerina_kuznitsina

Ksenia KONKINA (Yakusehev's former partner) has teamed up with Alexander VAKHNOV ( Polushuk's former partner)
(so effectively the 2 teams have switched partners)

Konkina and Vakhnov will be coached by Svetlana Liapina.

Not forgetting Betina Popova and Sergei Mozgov who have also moved to Krylova
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So is this like a Ruslena thing, where the left-behinds team up?
 
This switch between Yakushev/Konkina and Polishchuk/Vakhnov is really frustrating. P/V were a great team with tons of potential and now they have to start from scratch with just a few junior seasons left. I`m just glad Sofia Polishchuk found a new partner so quick and that she is in Krylova`s group now.
 
Tinami Amori said:
:D i did say that, but you're partially right to some extend. for example MF hardly had that many triples, NNN too, Yagudin's hip issues were inborn, etc. Most elite sports lead to permanent bone or other body damage. It's a fact. I am arguing this issue pretty much because each time Russians get any kind of competitive advantage a bunch of people start complaining, some under pretense of "carrying about the athletes", when in fact the motivation is jealousy and resentment of others' success. So my point is while athletes yes, have physical consequences to their bodies, and yes it is discussed at times, but not with same intensity.

By the way, the raised issues with Quads "because Nathan can do all of them and others can't" is just a disgusting in sentiment. People should try to beat the best by doing better themselves, not by hindering them or taking something away from them. bloody socialists... :lol:
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Stop...you are both right. Certs is 2 mints in one. Stops bad breath. Tastiest mint of all.
I really hated that commercial.

If a child has the talent and speed they can do those jumps quite well before they start growing. If they do the jumps while they are growing they can really hurt themselves depending on what their body is doing . Bones lengthen before they strengthen. Snap, crackle and Pop. Once the growing is all done ok to work hard again but technique may have to change a little or a lot depending on how much the body changed.
What is really bad news is if anyone is fed drugs which delay the start of puberty so you can win a bunch of championships b4 it hits. Or starve them which does the same thing.
So maybe some people who wants the ages changed are genuinely concerned about the health of children and maybe others just want to even the playing field . Unfortunately the world is filled with both types of people.
 
lala said:
I hope, too.. they are very tiny, lightweight..probably this protects from the injuries..
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Perhaps, but it's also very easy to injure yourself when you have skinny limbs.

Tinami Amori said:
i am not worried.. :D.. same thing was said when "tiny girls" started doing triples (when doubles was the norm)..
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Good point. I think if they're trained safely, then there should be no problem. But that's a big IF.

Tinami Amori said:
That is a myth and an invention coming from few groups of people (who have their own agenda). There are no disposable girls in "that camp", have not been, nor will be. It is a lie without any merit and some keep spreading it for their own convenience.
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We're not attacking Eteri's girls here, we're just saying that there seems to be a high turn-over rate with the ladies skaters, particularly in Russia and Japan where the fields are very deep and there are 10 girls who could grab your spot on the team if you screw up. It's just different than how it works in other countries. It's apparently quite successful, however they're doing it, but it's hard as a skating fan because I don't like to fall in love with a skater, then see them slip down the standings next year and never return.

ChiquitaBanana said:
Triple loop in combination put atletes more prine to hip injuries because of the torque applied to the hip.

Mai Miyahara, Fleur Maxwell, Alyssa Czisny, Naomi Nari Nam, Michelle Kwan, Alexei Yagudin, Ksenia Makarova, Tim Goebel, Todd Eldredge, Kevin Reynolds, Deanna Stellato, Yuna Kim, Johnny Weir, Elizabet TURSYNBAEVA , Evan Lysacek, Plushenko, Elvis Stojko, Jennifer Kirk, Nathan Chen...

Some got suregery, the others didn't but were sidelined for hip injury. There are much more, but I got tired of searching... :p
Click to expand...

That's why I worry for Alina Zagitova and her 3-3-3-3-3 loop jump combos.

barbarafan said:
Stop...you are both right. Certs is 2 mints in one. Stops bad breath. Tastiest mint of all.
I really hated that commercial.

If a child has the talent and speed they can do those jumps quite well before they start growing. If they do the jumps while they are growing they can really hurt themselves depending on what their body is doing . Bones lengthen before they strengthen. Snap, crackle and Pop. Once the growing is all done ok to work hard again but technique may have to change a little or a lot depending on how much the body changed.
What is really bad news is if anyone is fed drugs which delay the start of puberty so you can win a bunch of championships b4 it hits. Or starve them which does the same thing.
So maybe some people who wants the ages changed are genuinely concerned about the health of children and maybe others just want to even the playing field . Unfortunately the world is filled with both types of people.
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Didn't Wenjing Sui spend a year with foot problems when she was younger because she grew too much and was trying to do heavy training on her not-fully-grown legs? I think I recall something like that happening.

I don't have anything against the Russian jumping girls. I prefer some over others, but in general they all seem ok to me. I just want them (and all skaters, not just Russians) to be healthy and have a long career, not get cut short like Lipinski's.
 
hanca said:
Somehow I can’t see why doing triple loop on its own is less dangerous than doing loop as a second jump in combination. The technique is exactly the same.
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Because you don’t have the speed and the momentum the preparation phase gives you, you need to generate more torque when it’s in the second part of a combination. The hip is the pivoing point.
 
barbarafan said:
So maybe some people who wants the ages changed are genuinely concerned about the health of children
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Agreed, and that would be the right reason to make such a change, imo. The only drawback is, it won’t prevent injury to younger skaters attempting those jumps. Even if the ISU were to raise the age limit to 20yrs and over, for example, it would not necessarily stop a youthful skater from training those jumps at the very early stages, i.e., the junior level.

The senior level ranks comprise teenagers, not babies, not little girls or little boys. Those descriptions would more accurately describe a 3 through 13/14-year-old person for crying out loud. No 15 through 18-year-old wants to be called a little girl or little boy, it’s offensive and disrespectful, I know because I have been told so on more than one occasion. ;) Anyway, I digress…

The point being, youthful skaters, will still be executing the risky jumps in practice and at the junior level competitions. If they can do the jump, they’re going to do the jump!! Unless the ISU should decide to put the kibosh on them performed in competition. However, the training environment is another story, and any age limit that could possibly be implemented won’t stop that. So, to me the point is moot. It’s like banging one’s head against the wall. Not a whole lot will be accomplished with such a change unless there is an agenda.

barbarafan said:
and maybe others just want to even the playing field
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Now we're cutting to the chase. This, I believe, is what really motivates people. They do not want to see a young person winning such big, prestigious titles, UNLESS, it is a skater they support, THEN, they will justify the win six ways from Sunday. It’s blatant hypocrisy, and it is alive and well, believe me.

All it takes is one (or two) 15, 16, 17 or even 18-year-old “little girls” to defeat a favorite, even if she is about the same age, and suddenly, all hell breaks loose, and everyone demands the rules to be changed, NOW... There is a definite agenda among some people, but, it is what it is. The sport itself is ultimately flawed, fickle and full of bias. Good stuff, eh?! :drama:
 
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Weve3 said:
WTG, Anna! Just cannot keep up w/ the latest phenoms, anymore... I hope that Anna can sustain that jump and any other jumps that might be unveiled in the future because we all know how that can go. :wideeyes: But, good for her! :cheer2:
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Amazing! The girls doing the quads can rotate really fast. Will they be able to keep that up as they get more mature? I am really wondering if that is possible for all or it will be an exception.
 
Lizziebeth said:
Amazing! The girls doing the quads can rotate really fast. Will they be able to keep that up as they get more mature? I am really wondering if that is possible for all or it will be an exception.
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Exactly. For me, that is the question re these jumps. It is not so much the concern of injury, although that concern IS there, of course. The real question is whether a skater can sustain the jump(s) by the time they've hit the senior level.

Growth spurts, more than anything, can be the hurdle no longer cleared by a skater who could do the quads, 3A and more difficult triple jump combos, etc. at a younger age. But, will it carry over?? Some do get lucky, others, as we’ve witnessed, not so much. We’ll see about Anna.
 
hanca said:
Somehow I can’t see why doing triple loop on its own is less dangerous than doing loop as a second jump in combination. The technique is exactly the same.
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Think of it technically. Once the first jump is landed, there are options of 5 types of jumps: sal, ltz, flp and toe, loop/rit.

Once you come down on your landing foot, from the first jump, in order to do sal, ltz, flp one has to take either a step or do a half-jump, so that takes away the immediate pressure from the landing foot, before the next jump.

If one wants to do a toe or loop/rit after the first jump, then one REMAINS on the landing foot before going directly into the second jump.

If one chooses to do a toe jump as a second jump, one uses a toe-pique on the free foot take off, and that divides the pressure between the landing foot and the free foot.

When one chooses to do a loop/rit as a second jump, one has to take off (propel oneself up in the air) from the same foot as one landed on WITHOUT any assistance from the second foot or a relief jump in-between (which is needed for sal, lts, flp). So the landing foot not only receives the impact from landing, but must be immediately engaged in the next effort by itself (no shared impact/pressure from the free foot).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=easJtoWw60c
 
barbarafan said:
So maybe some people who wants the ages changed are genuinely concerned about the health of children and maybe others just want to even the playing field . Unfortunately the world is filled with both types of people.
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:D There is no such thing as "even playing field" in sports competition. In figure skating competition, even if all use the same ice, skate by the same rules, and have equal practice time before performance, there are factors beyond one's control, which will never make skaters "equal". Besides the obvious, such as popularity of the sport in the country, funding, ice time availability, etc., there are strictly individual nuances - talent, body type, willingness to endure pain, coaching talent, determination, personal priorities, etc.

Those who are concerned about "health of children" should leave Russian girls alone, and go feed starving children in Africa.. :D
 
Tinami Amori said:
Those who are concerned about "health of children" should leave Russian girls alone, and go feed starving children in Africa.. :D
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I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes when we discuss these things, it can sound like there has been a recent epidemic of hip injuries, etc. which has not been the case.

My concern regarding health and injury, from where I am standing, is for all skaters regardless their age.

Imo, anyone who hurls themselves (or someone else) through the air across an icy sheet has my utmost respect and well-wishes for a safe landing. If they fall, I'm just relieved to see them get up again and carry on, hopefully.
 
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Weve3 said:
I’ve said it a thousand times before, but I will repeat it again for those posters inclined to complain and carry on about "tiny girls" injuring themselves doing jumps that they feel these young ladies are not equipped to do…

Petition the ISU to have the age limit raised (e.g., 20yrs and up, eliminating teens) because that is what some posters really want, what really bothers them. ;) The goal, if they are being honest, is to get these younger ladies (aka "little girls," "jumping beans," "baby ballerinas," etc.) out of the game, right?? ;) Then, they can predictably pick up where they’ve left off, but this time complaining and carrying on about how their favorites are no longer age-eligible if raising the age limit should ever happen. While they’re at it, they'll need to make sure, just to be fair, ;) that they also suggest to the ISU that all medals be stripped of those in past competitions who competed underage, just to stay consistent - you know, (y) with the new age limit proposal. Make it retroactive... :oops: No?! I didn’t think so… ;):p:2faced:
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I get that you're trying to be sarcastic, but I don't think raising the age limit to 18 is such a bad idea.
 
Xela M said:
I get that you're trying to be sarcastic, but I don't think raising the age limit to 18 is such a bad idea.
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But then you will have the ridiculous situation that Junior ladies are far better than seniors. In sport generally, seniors should be better. Otherwise seniors would be seen as a semi-retirement. It would be a joke for skaters to be getting olympic gold medal while knowing that perhaps ten junior ladies can easily beat you.
 
Xela M said:
I get that you're trying to be sarcastic, but I don't think raising the age limit to 18 is such a bad idea.
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Yes, you’re right, there are definitely some tongue in cheek moments in my comment. However, one serious point I was trying to make, is regarding a female skater’s age, in particular, frequently being used against them in an unfortunate, condescending, almost degrading, smearing type of way especially if they’re younger than their teammates or competitors and they win major titles.

Christine Brennan, for example, who is very much an “I am woman, hear me roar” type person does not let that stop her from making snide, cocky remarks about “little girls” winning big titles, inferring they have no business doing so. Using their age against them in a very unflattering, cheap shot way unless she is personally invested and hoping for them to win. Christine should know better, IMHO. She’s being very hypocritical, but then again, Christine usually has an agenda, is very biased, has her favorites, and wears her emotions on her sleeve. To be fair, we all occasionally do -- for better or for worse.

However, I’m do wonder what a Christine Brennan headline would have said if someone like Vincent Zhou were to have pulled off an upset and won the Olympic gold medal at the PyeongChang Winter Olympics. Would Christine have written ‘LITTLE BOY’ wins gold in a stunning upset? I doubt it. I think Vincent’s age would have been mentioned, but not in the same degrading manner as it would have been if it were (and was) a teenage girl. Also, something tells me that Vincent Zhou would be quite unhappy to be referred to as a little boy, even though, by law, he is not yet an adult.

BTW, I’m not purposely picking on Brennan or any other journalist/blogger, but she is a good example, IMO, of hypocrisy from a woman engaging in a double standard toward a young, female skater which is just one topic I was trying to highlight in my post.

Also, you’ve mentioned 18+…

Personally, I think a lot of fans would like to see the age limit raised, until they stop and think about it, realizing their favorites (in the past) had won prestigious, coveted titles when they were only 15, 16, 17yrs old. Often this leaves them to conclude that maybe raising the age limit is not so desirable, any more.
 
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ChiquitaBanana said:
Triple loop in combination put atletes more prine to hip injuries because of the torque applied to the hip.

Mai Miyahara, Fleur Maxwell, Alyssa Czisny, Naomi Nari Nam, Michelle Kwan, Alexei Yagudin, Ksenia Makarova, Tim Goebel, Todd Eldredge, Kevin Reynolds, Deanna Stellato, Yuna Kim, Johnny Weir, Elizabet TURSYNBAEVA , Evan Lysacek, Plushenko, Elvis Stojko, Jennifer Kirk, Nathan Chen...

Some got suregery, the others didn't but were sidelined for hip injury. There are much more, but I got tired of searching... :p
Click to expand...

Add Brian Boitano and Tara Lipinski to the list. As a pro Boitano did all the triples but stopped doing the 3R. Tara's injuries are well known.
 
Or, to avoid any unfair discrimination or age-related controversy, suggest to the ISU if they do decide to raise the age limit, someday, then they should also consider putting a cap on how long a skater can compete… You know, go for the whole ball of wax. ;)

E.G., no more competition once a skater has reached 24yrs of age. That’s it, game over, they're done… Carolina Kostner would not approve.

Why punish the youngsters but continue to reward the more mature skaters? Their bodies are also more vulnerable and susceptible to injury the longer they choose to compete.

That is how ridiculous and quickly out of hand this issue could become, as well as another example of a double standard.
 
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