From Russia with love [#29]: Spring 2018 and beyond

[hanca]

Or, to avoid any unfair discrimination or age-related controversy, suggest to the ISU if they do decide to raise the age limit, someday, then they should also consider putting a cap on how long a skater can compete… You know, go for the whole ball of wax.

E.G., no more competition once a skater has reached 24yrs of age. That’s it, game over, they're done… Carolina Kostner would not approve.

Why punish the youngsters but continue to reward the more mature skaters? Their bodies are also more vulnerable and susceptible to injury the longer they choose to compete.

That is how ridiculous and quickly out of hand this issue could become, as well as another example of a double standard.

Actually, it would make sense. One could argue that the longer one skaters, the higher chance of overuse injuries. If we are going to be so concerned about the health of the athletes.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Just few years ago some of these coaches and commentators wanted age limit to go away since it prevented Mao and Yuna from competing at the Olympics in 2006. Now they want the age limit ?, clearly they can’t catch up with Russians and Japanese skaters.
I think IOC will have a field day with it since the rules now are consistent with gymnastics.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Just few years ago some of these coaches and commentators wanted age limit to go away since it prevented Mao and Yuna from competing at the Olympics in 2006. Now they want the age limit ?, clearly they can’t catch up with Russians and Japanese skaters.
I think IOC will have a field day with it since the rules now are consistent with gymnastics.

Exactly....

I clearly recall an opposite sentiment, when Mao, then 14 years old, won the GPF, but could not compete against Slutskaya because of age, and Slutskaya won (Worlds 2005). Everybody (non-Russians) were yelling "lower the age" to let Mao compete..

 

[alchemy void]

Or, there are fans who would like to see the age limit raised--even though they know it would prevent them from seeing something like a 15-year-old Michelle Kwan winning a World title again.

A new IceNetwork article from Phil Hersh in which several prominent coaches come out in support of raising the age limit: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/04/30/274122364.

Where were the calls for increased age limits during the USA's reign of "baby ballerinas" with skaters under 16 dominating the international stage (Hughes, Lipinski, Cohen, all doing 3-3s that no one else in the world were doing)? And during this time period the Russians were well older (Butyrskaya, Slutskaya, Cupcake). Now the tables are turned and we have a cry to change age limits. Regardless of the intention, it just rings as disingenuous, especially considering how mediocre American ladies have been since 2006.

Don't get me wrong, some good points are raised in the article, but it's hard for me to take most of them seriously. And I much prefer women's skating vs. junior girls.

I would be good with raising the limits to 16, that is reasonable, and might encourage a bit more maturity in senior ladies. But I'm sorry, 18 is preposterous, and again, it's hard to take the argument as a whole seriously when the ulterior motive is blatantly obvious, considering the plethora of talented Japanese and Russian skaters in the junior ranks.

 

[Dobre]

Where were the calls for increased age limits during the USA's reign of "baby ballerinas" with skaters under 16 dominating the international stage (Hughes, Lipinski, Cohen, all doing 3-3s that no one else in the world were doing)?

The calls after Lipinski's gold medal were the reason the age limit was increased.

 

[lala]

oh, i see.... all those who can not get their girls to medal lately want the "age increase" because their girls now can't compete with Eteri's girls.... jealousy is a Deadly Sin....

Do you remember for 2010? The quad is not FS.. the quad is not everything.. And now Nathan is the best skater ever! Nathan is the real male skater!

 

[PRlady]

Nothing can change a sport whose jumping physics favor smaller, less-developed bodies in women. They can make the decision to value PCS more, but then if the PCS for a skater like Zags rises in tandem with her TES, you’re back at square 1.

And I’d be the first to object to a Kostner beating a Zags with really inferior technical content, so there you go.

 

[barbarafan]

oh, i see.... all those who can not get their girls to medal lately want the "age increase" because their girls now can't compete with Eteri's girls.... jealousy is a Deadly Sin....

Knowing Phil Hersh he only asked coaches who he knew would want the age change.

What I would like to know about Eteri is are the young girls in her group taking anything to delay puberty? Because that is very bad for their health and should not be done.

 

[Vash01]

Knowing Phil Hersh he only asked coaches who he knew would want the age change.

What I would like to know about Eteri is are the young girls in her group taking anything to delay puberty? Because that is very bad for their health and should not be done.

So far I have not seen any of the Eteri senior girls in Eteri's group looking younger than they are. Not Med, not Zag. Trusova is just 13 and she looks it. So I doubt that is going on. They are just girls with tremendous talent and the desire to be successful.

 

[lala]

So far I have not seen any of the Eteri senior girls in Eteri's group looking younger than they are. Not Med, not Zag. Trusova is just 13 and she looks it. So I doubt that is going on. They are just girls with tremendous talent and the desire to be successful.

Zagitova is 15 y.o. (almost 16). But her body is not a prepuberted girl's body..

 

[Tinami Amori]

Knowing Phil Hersh he only asked coaches who he knew would want the age change.

What I would like to know about Eteri is are the young girls in her group taking anything to delay puberty? Because that is very bad for their health and should not be done.

That’s a hoot….

Med and Zag are curvier and wider than Tessa, and some other Canadian girls.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BhHm1lPFyoz/?hl=en&taken-by=evgenia_medvedeva_fans

Zagitova is busting out of her bra and buying new clothes with “some room” while on tour (given few fotos with shopping bags and new clothes)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BiPfO_WD359/?hl=en&tagged=alinazagitova
https://www.instagram.com/p/BhOxX3rj3md/?hl=en&taken-by=teamzagitova

And Kostornaia is not missing any hips even in a dress made to “elongate her body and make her hips look thinner”… https://cdn1.img.rsport.ru/images/113067/42/1130674242.jpg

But… I know few elite level female athletes in USA (not in skating) who are taking pills to stop their monthly cycles during competition months, and that must not be healthy..

 

[alchemy void]

The calls after Lipinski's gold medal were the reason the age limit was increased.

No, the age limits were increased a few seasons before the 1998 Nagano Olympics. In fact, the only way Lipinski was able to skate at 97 Worlds as a 14 year old (and 96 Worlds as a 13 year old....oh, the horror!) was because she was grandfathered in based on placing top 5 at junior worlds the season prior.

 

[kwanfan1818]

No, the age limits were increased a few seasons before the 1998 Nagano Olympics. In fact, the only way Lipinski was able to skate at 97 Worlds as a 14 year old (and 96 Worlds as a 13 year old....oh, the horror!) was because she was grandfathered in based on placing top 5 at junior worlds the season prior.

Same with Sarah Hughes. The Wikipedia article on Hughes cites this web archive article written by Sandra Loosemore:
https://web.archive.org/web/2008101...e.com/u/ce/multi/0,1329,2150632_10946,00.html

From that article is a reminder that Sasha Cohen didn't get the exception because she didn't meet expectations at Jr. Worlds and didn't qualify for the exemption. ETA: And props for Deanna Stellato and Jenny Kirk.

 

[alchemy void]

Same with Sarah Hughes. The Wikipedia article on Hughes cites this web archive article written by Sandra Loosemore:
https://web.archive.org/web/2008101...e.com/u/ce/multi/0,1329,2150632_10946,00.html

That's so funny you bring up Sandra Loosemore, because I originally was going to post I *knew* that policy was documented on SkateWeb somewhere, but was too lazy to look it up.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I would be good with raising the limits to 16, that is reasonable, and might encourage a bit more maturity in senior ladies. But I'm sorry, 18 is preposterous, and again, it's hard to take the argument as a whole seriously when the ulterior motive is blatantly obvious, considering the plethora of talented Japanese and Russian skaters in the junior ranks.

The rules are consistent with gymnastics, for example Kyla Ross was not 16 when she won the gold medal at the London olympics. For figure skating, the athletes should turn 16 by July 1st of the Olympics year as the Olympics are held in the first half, for gymnastics it is 31st December as the Olympic Year, so in the 2nd half of the Olympic Year.

 

[SamuraiK]

For all the drama about the age restrictions in this thread, I don't see any proposal about it in the agenda for the ISU congress in June.

However, CAN and JPN (not surprisingly) have proposed to reduce the number of elements with the 1.1 bonus after the first half of the program. CAN is proposing only 2 jump passes to get the bonus in the short and 4 in the free while JPN is advocating for 1 in the short and 3 in the free.

I have a hunch at least one of these 2 proposals will get aproved.

 

[alchemy void]

The rules are consistent with gymnastics, for example Kyla Ross was not 16 when she won the gold medal at the London olympics. For figure skating, the athletes should turn 16 by July 1st of the Olympics year as the Olympics are held in the first half, for gymnastics it is 31st December as the Olympic Year, so in the 2nd half of the Olympic Year.

I understand that, but why do we have to be consistent with gymnastics? Completely different sports.

 

[Cherub721]

For all the drama about the age restrictions in this thread, I don't see any proposal about it in the agenda for the ISU congress in June.

However, CAN and JPN (not surprisingly) have proposed to reduce the number of elements with the 1.1 bonus after the first half of the program. CAN is proposing only 2 jump passes to get the bonus in the short and 4 in the free while JPN is advocating for 1 in the short and 3 in the free.

I have a hunch at least one of these 2 proposals will get aproved.

Weren't the Canadian commentators always the ones complaining about Russians frontloading and having easier programs?

 

[Dobre]

No, the age limits were increased a few seasons before the 1998 Nagano Olympics. In fact, the only way Lipinski was able to skate at 97 Worlds as a 14 year old (and 96 Worlds as a 13 year old....oh, the horror!) was because she was grandfathered in based on placing top 5 at junior worlds the season prior.

A loophole that was closed. There were plenty of complaints about Tara.

 

[lala]

I understand that, but why do we have to be consistent with gymnastics? Completely different sports.

Both are dangerous and the young age is advantage in technic.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Yes, you’re right, there are definitely some tongue in cheek moments in my comment. However, one serious point I was trying to make, is regarding a female skater’s age, in particular, frequently being used against them in an unfortunate, condescending, almost degrading, smearing type of way especially if they’re younger than their teammates or competitors and they win major titles.

Christine Brennan, for example, who is very much an “I am woman, hear me roar” type person does not let that stop her from making snide, cocky remarks about “little girls” winning big titles, inferring they have no business doing so. Using their age against them in a very unflattering, cheap shot way unless she is personally invested and hoping for them to win. Christine should know better, IMHO. She’s being very hypocritical, but then again, Christine usually has an agenda, is very biased, has her favorites, and wears her emotions on her sleeve. To be fair, we all occasionally do -- for better or for worse.

However, I’m do wonder what a Christine Brennan headline would have said if someone like Vincent Zhou were to have pulled off an upset and won the Olympic gold medal at the PyeongChang Winter Olympics. Would Christine have written ‘LITTLE BOY’ wins gold in a stunning upset? I doubt it. I think Vincent’s age would have been mentioned, but not in the same degrading manner as it would have been if it were (and was) a teenage girl. Also, something tells me that Vincent Zhou would be quite unhappy to be referred to as a little boy, even though, by law, he is not yet an adult.

BTW, I’m not purposely picking on Brennan or any other journalist/blogger, but she is a good example, IMO, of hypocrisy from a woman engaging in a double standard toward a young, female skater which is just one topic I was trying to highlight in my post.

Also, you’ve mentioned 18+…

Personally, I think a lot of fans would like to see the age limit raised, until they stop and think about it, realizing their favorites (in the past) had won prestigious, coveted titles when they were only 15, 16, 17yrs old. Often this leaves them to conclude that maybe raising the age limit is not so desirable, any more.

Agree completely about your point on Vincent! I believe Christine did an article about Nathan calling him "17 going on Olympic gold" (This was a year before the Olympics). So apparently when you're a young talented male, you're considered a prodigy and a phenom, but if you're a female doing the same thing, you're called a "little girl". This sexism has to stop...

In fact, I find men's skating rather boring these days because of all the quads. It's turned into a jumping fest and nobody seems to have a problem with it. If we're going to complain about the teenage girls, we need to complain about the young guys who have turned skating into a quad fest. The girls aren't doing anything different than the guys here.

Btw I stopped reading Christine's articles a looooooooooong time ago.

 

[Mad for Skating]

That’s a hoot….

Med and Zag are curvier and wider than Tessa, and some other Canadian girls.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BhHm1lPFyoz/?hl=en&taken-by=evgenia_medvedeva_fans

Zagitova is busting out of her bra and buying new clothes with “some room” while on tour (given few fotos with shopping bags and new clothes)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BiPfO_WD359/?hl=en&tagged=alinazagitova
https://www.instagram.com/p/BhOxX3rj3md/?hl=en&taken-by=teamzagitova

And Kostornaia is not missing any hips even in a dress made to “elongate her body and make her hips look thinner”… https://cdn1.img.rsport.ru/images/113067/42/1130674242.jpg

But… I know few elite level female athletes in USA (not in skating) who are taking pills to stop their monthly cycles during competition months, and that must not be healthy..

Come on, let's face it: who isn't wider than Tessa?
I don't think Eteri has managed to "stop" puberty, but she's definitely slowed it down. Being close to Zagitova's age myself (I'm 15 1/2), let me tell you that this is when some MAJOR changes happen.
I'm 5'3", around 100 pounds, and not exceptionally curvy, but my hips are a whole lot wider than Med's or Zag's. Which leads me to believe that something odd is up.

In general, even the "adult" women in skating (Kostner, Wagner, Osmond, most girls in pairs) have more straight, athletic bodies that nature gave them. So perhaps it's similar to how most elite volleyball and basketball players are tall. But you don't hear them talking about how they don't eat.

I think also it's a matter of how it's talked about. There's nothing wrong with saying "okay, you're at that age where your body is going to develop into a young woman, so you will gain weight and that will affect your jumps". But Eteri's theory seems to be "oh God, you've hit puberty, now you are FAT."

 

[soogar]

Come on, let's face it: who isn't wider than Tessa?
I don't think Eteri has managed to "stop" puberty, but she's definitely slowed it down. Being close to Zagitova's age myself (I'm 15 1/2), let me tell you that this is when some MAJOR changes happen.
I'm 5'3", around 100 pounds, and not exceptionally curvy, but my hips are a whole lot wider than Med's or Zag's. Which leads me to believe that something odd is up.

I'm in my 40s and I have narrow hips. Not every female develops wide hips after puberty. Looking at both of those girls, they are very proportionate. All of Eteri's skaters look normal for the amount of activity they are doing. I'm dumbfounded at the accusations and speculation on these girls taking drugs to delay puberty. Alina looked very feminine and curvy in her little tiger cat suit.

 

[Mad for Skating]

I'm in my 40s and I have narrow hips. Not every female develops wide hips after puberty. Looking at both of those girls, they are very proportionate. All of Eteri's skaters look normal for the amount of activity they are doing. I'm dumbfounded at the accusations and speculation on these girls taking drugs to delay puberty. Alina looked very feminine and curvy in her little tiger cat suit.

True, true. As I said, I think it's more about the mentality. Eteri makes hitting puberty sound like a deadly sin.

 

[lala]

Come on, let's face it: who isn't wider than Tessa?
I don't think Eteri has managed to "stop" puberty, but she's definitely slowed it down. Being close to Zagitova's age myself (I'm 15 1/2), let me tell you that this is when some MAJOR changes happen.
I'm 5'3", around 100 pounds, and not exceptionally curvy, but my hips are a whole lot wider than Med's or Zag's. Which leads me to believe that something odd is up.

In general, even the "adult" women in skating (Kostner, Wagner, Osmond, most girls in pairs) have more straight, athletic bodies that nature gave them. So perhaps it's similar to how most elite volleyball and basketball players are tall. But you don't hear them talking about how they don't eat.

I think also it's a matter of how it's talked about. There's nothing wrong with saying "okay, you're at that age where your body is going to develop into a young woman, so you will gain weight and that will affect your jumps". But Eteri's theory seems to be "oh God, you've hit puberty, now you are FAT."

Did you say it? Oops you are 16 ..

 

[Tinami Amori]

I'm in my 40s and I have narrow hips. Not every female develops wide hips after puberty. Looking at both of those girls, they are very proportionate. All of Eteri's skaters look normal for the amount of activity they are doing. I'm dumbfounded at the accusations and speculation on these girls taking drugs to delay puberty. Alina looked very feminine and curvy in her little tiger cat suit.

but, but... they are Russian, and they are winning..... so there must be something wrong with them...

 

[Vash01]

Why don't some people acknowledge that these young ladies have talent, discipline, desire and they work hard to do well in competitions? I find it disgusting that false rumors are being spread about them taking drugs.

 

[zoe111]

Come on, let's face it: who isn't wider than Tessa?
I don't think Eteri has managed to "stop" puberty, but she's definitely slowed it down. Being close to Zagitova's age myself (I'm 15 1/2), let me tell you that this is when some MAJOR changes happen.
I'm 5'3", around 100 pounds, and not exceptionally curvy, but my hips are a whole lot wider than Med's or Zag's. Which leads me to believe that something odd is up.

In general, even the "adult" women in skating (Kostner, Wagner, Osmond, most girls in pairs) have more straight, athletic bodies that nature gave them. So perhaps it's similar to how most elite volleyball and basketball players are tall. But you don't hear them talking about how they don't eat.

I think also it's a matter of how it's talked about. There's nothing wrong with saying "okay, you're at that age where your body is going to develop into a young woman, so you will gain weight and that will affect your jumps". But Eteri's theory seems to be "oh God, you've hit puberty, now you are FAT."

i just don't agree that's what she's doing at all. She has girls who hit puberty early and are curvier - Panenkova. She has girls who hit puberty and are super tall (Tsurskaya) and she still supports them and they are doing ok (barring injuries). I'm in my early 50's. 5'7" with tiny hips (and tiny everything else unfortunately ). It's genetics.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Ok even if she's not using drugs to stop their puberty, you can't deny that these girls are on stricter diets than the skaters from other countries, and the mentality is different. You don't hear Kaetlyn Osmond talking about "weight, weight, and weight".

Here's Evgenia's athlete profile: 162 cm, 46kg. That means 5'3 3/4" and 101 pounds.

https://www.pyeongchang2018.com/jp/...hlete-profile-n3036249-evgeniia-medvedeva.htm

Alina's profile: 5'1" and 94 pounds https://www.nbcolympics.com/athlete...colympics.com/athletes/alina-zagitova/1527536

I understand that athletes in general are thin and light, but they just seem a wee bit too skinny and I think Tutberidze's way of referring to weight doesn't help. You know, the whole "shut your mouth and don't eat" stuff.

Did you say it? Oops you are 16 ..

What's this supposed to mean?

 

[Tinami Amori]

Ok even if she's not using drugs to stop their puberty, you can't deny that these girls are on stricter diets than the skaters from other countries, and the mentality is different.

and if she is not on a diet, then you'll find some "other problem", after all "nothing right can be about Russian girls"..

Oh, Med is on a diet..... sushi diet (at 30 USD a meal) ..
@ 2:27 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzGhduVL9IQ
@ 0:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3kH7TbKykk

And Zag, is just starving on ice-cream dish lunches, and meat dishes grand-ma makes her.. (english subs, keep watching past 2:00 mark.. )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99-41iFypPk