Friendships with People with Completely Different POV's

[Vagabond]

TBH I think I would have difficulty being friends with someone who is pro-life, because of what the viewpoint denotes about women.

I am a man, so I will readily acknowledge that if I were a woman, I might see things differently, but here goes. Over the years, I have had friends who were vehemently opposed to legalized abortion under almost any circumstances other than when a procedure is done to save the woman's life and results in the termination of pregnancy. I have had friends who were virulently bigoted against homosexuals (very uncool if you are trying to fit in in San Francisco, as they were at the time). Their particular views on these subjects were not what endeared themselves to me, but they had many fine qualities. Two of these people are still among my closest friends, though we live an ocean apart and I see each of them very seldom. Of those two, one will still, unprompted spout off tirades against not just abortion but things like mixed-income housing (which might lead to the mixing of social classes!). When he goes on one of these tirades, I just let him speak until he has gotten the matter out of his system, and then we move on to something more pleasant.

Not all of these friendships were meant to last, but if I had not had them, my life would have been poorer in many ways. YMMV.

As for @canbelto, it sounds like her friendship with the person in question has run its course.

 

[Japanfan]

Not all of these friendships were meant to last, but if I had not had them, my life would have been poorer in many ways. YMMV.

I can understand that.

And my life circumstances are such that I am not very social. The few friends I do have tend to share my fundamental values and beliefs. If I had more of a social network, I'd have more opportunities to exercise tolerance of people who had different views than myself.

But even so, there are deal-breakers. As a Jew, I certainly could not be friends with an anti-Semite. As a pro-Choice person, I would find it hard to befriend a pro-Life person because in my view, that person denies women of their autonomy as persons as well as their Constitutional rights (well, everywhere in the western developed world other than the US). As a pro-Choice person I would never tell a woman what to do with her body - a pro-Life person would.

However, there is certainly lots of room for many disagreements among friends. For example, a friend and I often argue about giving children psych meds - she is totally against it, whereas I think it is sometimes warranted, although not ideal.

That kind of disagreement is not a deal-breaker.

 

[Vagabond]

As a Jew, I certainly could not be friends with an anti-Semite.

Although I have never asked any of them, I am fairly certain that some of my Catholic friends believe that I am going to to Hell when I die or at least did believe that when they knew me. Maybe some of my Protestant friends back in student days did too. That didn't seem to have any effect on our relationships in the here and now.

On the other hand, one of my friends did ask me point blank in front of her husband (with whom I am very close) and three of her children if I had ever considered converting. I will not be upset if I never see her again.

 

[Japanfan]

Although I have never asked any of them, I am fairly certain that some of my Catholic friends believe that I am going to to Hell when I die or at least did believe that when they knew me. Maybe some of my Protestant friends back in student days did too. That didn't seem to have any effect on our relationships in the here and now.

I could live with that view, as it doesn't deny me of personhood or devalue me as a human being.

On the other hand, one of my friends did ask me point blank in front of her husband (with whom I am very close) and three of her children if I had ever considered converting. I will not be upset if I never see her again.

A Chinese friend of mine converted to Christianity after a conversation with Jehovah Witnesses. She was intent on converting her parents to Christianity because she thought that if they did not convert, she would not see them in the afterlife.

That would be a bit much for me.

 

[Vagabond]

She was intent on converting her parents to Christianity because she thought that if they did not convert, she would not see them in the afterlife.

To paraphrase Longfellow, into each afterlife, some rain must fall.

 

[IceAlisa]

I (and most of the political quizzes) consider myself a secular centrist. But I do have friends both to the right and the left of me. We don't discuss the issues we disagree on because it's useless and divisive. I can respect a person whose views are different from mine (to a degree, no extremism, please)

To paraphrase Longfellow, into each afterlife, some rain must fall.

I had to memorize this poem in 5th grade Is it part of the curriculum here or were you doing some reading on your own?

 

[canbelto]

I forgot to add that the friendship already took a big strain when during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings he said it was "nonsense" because "back in the day" no one would have considered that sexual assault, that was just "Friday night." He also defended Josh Duggar saying "many brothers get curious with their sisters. It's normal. It's not a big deal." I took a step back from the friendship then for awhile (made lots of "I'm busy" vague excuses) and recently decided to talk to him again and this stuff comes up again.

 

[once_upon]

Oh wow. Those would be deal breakers for me. Anyone who defends Kavanagh?

Obviously your decision but I would have said outta here back then.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Actually it all sounds rather creepy if you ask me. The sisters line is not comfortable no matter what.

 

[pat c]

I'm with @once_upon. I think you've given him a fair chance and enough of your time.

 

[Japanfan]

Oh wow. Those would be deal breakers for me. Anyone who defends Kavanagh?

Yes. These views really demonstrate a lack of respect for women. When I was in high school 'back in the day' date rape was not yet a term and no one talked about it. But it happened all the time and was no less of a violation.

 

[quartz]

Holy crap how many red flags do you need? Buh-bye.

 

[KCC]

I Googled "how to respond to mean people" and came up with a bunch of articles on the subject. Here is one that describes several different responses: https://www.thelist.com/77492/nice-ways-deal-mean-people/
I can usually get out words like "well that's a mean thing to say" or "surely you don't mean that", but not much more unless the situation is very serious and I'm in the right mindset. My dad always told me to pick my battles, so I don't fight them all. Again, good luck.

 

[genevieve]

Holy crap how many red flags do you need? Buh-bye.

Yeah, there are lots of nuances to friendships between people with differing viewpoints on select issues, but this guy just sounds like a colossal asshat.

Most of my friends are at least in the same hemisphere of my social and political beliefs, but I have had a few surprises here and there. Although my college was quite a bit left of most college campuses, I'm learning that many of my college peers are more libertarians than liberals, which I find . Someone I was friends with back when but only reconnected through FB a few years ago is quite the 2nd amendment junkie . We've got enough in common that I do listen to (read) his arguments and try to understand his POV in a way that I wouldn't bother with a stranger or an overall conservative. I mostly argue with his hard line about not voting for any Dem candidate that wants to strengthen gun control AT ALL, because FFS we already saw what idealistic purity will mean at the presidential ballot level.

 

[Ania]

It sounds very pure and noble to say we won't associate with people who have terrible views. Unfortunately, if we don't, those views will probably never change and will continue to do great damage. Someone has to do the dirty work of reaching out, calling them to account, and showing them a better way. Sometimes those efforts don't bear fruit. But sometimes they do.

I'll be honest, the absolute worst experience of my life has been seeing loved ones succumb to Trumpism. It's been worse than having beloved relatives die or getting fired twice in two years. It's been horrifying (and reading that book and being reminded yet again, as if I needed it, just how very heinous Trumpism is made it horrifying all over again). But I stick with those relationships and I do the hard, dirty, usually thankless work of trying to change minds and hearts in any way I can.

I truly appreciate and respect this perspective. But I draw a distinction that is important to me. Let me explain (I'll get back to this point). For a while I have been thinking a lot about Nazi Germany (I'm 'wrong half' Jew, so this topic is salient to me). In Nazi Germany, most people did not sever friendships and family ties with those who put Jewish people into gas chambers, transported them to concentration camps, etc. So I keep thinking of people who were a good neighbor, a good friend, a good family member to someone who directly or indirectly contributed to that, and I find it chilling.

I kept asking myself where the line is at which I will no longer be able to maintain a relationship. If there is no line, it means I can be complicit in truly horrific things. There must be a line. Where is mine? I'm sad to say I have my answer. My line was at the separation of migrant families at the border. There are people today in my country who have relationships with those who are separating infants and young children from their parents, who profit from government payments to migrant camps, who support the administration that is committing what I consider to be atrocities. I still agonize over this but I had to hit a pause button on a relationship with a dear friend who married a Trump supporter. She is neutral (if it is possible to be neutral...) but that friendship meant having them both over for Thanksgiving and I could not do it. I do not know if our friendship will ever recover or be the same. I mourn this loss but I could not still consider myself a decent person and maintain this relationship.

So back to the point of the distinction I make. Getting into echo chambers and silos is dangerous and I think it is very important to have relationships with people who are different from me. This means that I, a cisgender straight woman who is a (wrong) half Jew, have friends of different religions (Muslim, Christian, atheist), sexual orientations, ethnic backgrounds, genders, and ages, in different parts of the country and the world. I engaged in many debates about Trump, his qualifications (or lack of thereof), his temperament, and likely policies before the election with friends and relatives. I continued to participate in heated but friendly discussions after the election. But he is not simply a person with abhorrent views. His abhorrent views are now the views of my elected government. Hitler did not usurp power, he was democratically elected. So this is the distinction that is important to me - once people with abhorrent views come to power and are capable of inflicting grave harm, I need to find my line. Moreover, I think every decent person needs to be able to find their line.

 

[Wyliefan]

I do understand and respect that, @Ania. We all have to figure out where to draw the lines, and decide whether our presence in someone's life is really doing any good or not.

 

[AxelAnnie]

He just thinks that the nuclear family needs to be maintained at all costs, and that means women making "sacrifices." I pointed out that in the 1950's there were plenty of broken homes. Maybe not as many official divorces but definitely plenty of broken homes where the mother and father either didn't live together, or the mother was abused, or the father drifted in and out of their lives. And he can't see that a woman being abused or children being abused is worse than a woman leaving that abusive relationship.

As I said, we also got in a disagreement about immigration, as his parents also immigrated but he said "but we were European." I said there was plenty of anti-Semitism in that time (he's Jewish). He thinks that Asians, Hispanics, and Africans who immigrate are "ruining the foundation of America."

I've sort of kept my distance since this conversation. I haven't defriended him or anything but I haven't initiated a conversation. But I appreicate the feedback. It's been very thought provoking.

Why do you even talk to this person?

 

[AxelAnnie]

What is a "wrong" half Jew?

 

[hanca]

I am quite surprised how important for so many of you is having friends only with people with the same opinions. Dumping friends because they have different political opinions... and then the society ends up completely fractured. People are not willing to listen to other opinions, it is much easier to listen only to those who agrees with your point of view, no one is willing to find any middle ground, any compromise...

To be honest, I have no idea what are my friends’ political opinions. There is so much to talk about (what’s new in their lives and in my life, plans for the near future etc) that we never really get to talking about politics. I do have friends and family members who from time to time express opinions that I strongly disagree with. For example, my father struggled with the concept of same sex marriage (it seems that he would be comfortable with same sex relationship as such but not with the marriage, which to me doesn’t make sense, considering that he is not even religious). Even harder was for him to understand that in this country it is absolutely fine for two males to adopt a child. Two females would be fine, in his view, but not two males. When talking about such issues, all I can do is to say my opinion and let him get his head around that. If he says something that I find really offensive, I tell him why I consider what he said unacceptable. I reinforce certain boundaries within the discussion, challenge whatever I find offensive but I don’t force my opinions down his throat. We can agree to disagree. Yes, it may be easier if he had an exact copy of my opinions, but each of us grew up at different times, in different places and had different access to information, so it is natural that our opinions will differ. And if I find some of his views hard to accept- nobody is perfect.

 

[gk_891]

I am quite surprised how important for so many of you is having friends only with people with the same opinions. Dumping friends because they have different political opinions... and then the society ends up completely fractured. People are not willing to listen to other opinions, it is much easier to listen only to those who agrees with your point of view, no one is willing to find any middle ground, any compromise...

To be honest, I have no idea what are my friends’ political opinions. There is so much to talk about (what’s new in their lives and in my life, plans for the near future etc) that we never really get to talking about politics. I do have friends and family members who from time to time express opinions that I strongly disagree with. For example, my father struggled with the concept of same sex marriage (it seems that he would be comfortable with same sex relationship as such but not with the marriage, which to me doesn’t make sense, considering that he is not even religious). Even harder was for him to understand that in this country it is absolutely fine for two males to adopt a child. Two females would be fine, in his view, but not two males. When talking about such issues, all I can do is to say my opinion and let him get his head around that. If he says something that I find really offensive, I tell him why I consider what he said unacceptable. I reinforce certain boundaries within the discussion, challenge whatever I find offensive but I don’t force my opinions down his throat. We can agree to disagree. Yes, it may be easier if he had an exact copy of my opinions, but each of us grew up at different times, in different places and had different access to information, so it is natural that our opinions will differ. And if I find some of his views hard to accept- nobody is perfect.

Some people refer to this as the echo chamber or a social bubble. It's where you surround yourself only with people who share the same opinions, beliefs, and values. And in these interactions, the same ideas, opinions, and values are bounced right back towards you. It can lead to a situation where these people can become completely intolerant towards those who are different. And that in turn can lead to situations where those who have had different life experiences (and thus different opinions and beliefs) can become segregated. And as you mentioned, under those circumstances, there's not much growth or any kind of middle ground because no one's talking to one another. When there's interaction and dialogue flowing back and forth, there of course can be disagreement but people can at least see where the other is coming from. And those who do disagree can at least make it clear to the others about how their opinions make them feel.

It's all easier said than done of course. But in a hostile environment where different opinions are not tolerated, this can lead to people having 'closeted' feelings and emotions. And this goes back something my professor once said in a minority groups class I took years ago where he asked would you rather have bigots/sexists/etc hide how they feel or would you rather have them be open about it. Personally for me, I would much rather have the latter because at least when they're open about it, I know where I stand with them even if it's in a very negative way. And in those circumstances, I actually know who my true friends and my true enemies are.

 

[gk_891]

I truly appreciate and respect this perspective. But I draw a distinction that is important to me. Let me explain (I'll get back to this point). For a while I have been thinking a lot about Nazi Germany (I'm 'wrong half' Jew, so this topic is salient to me). In Nazi Germany, most people did not sever friendships and family ties with those who put Jewish people into gas chambers, transported them to concentration camps, etc. So I keep thinking of people who were a good neighbor, a good friend, a good family member to someone who directly or indirectly contributed to that, and I find it chilling.

I kept asking myself where the line is at which I will no longer be able to maintain a relationship. If there is no line, it means I can be complicit in truly horrific things. There must be a line. Where is mine? I'm sad to say I have my answer. My line was at the separation of migrant families at the border. There are people today in my country who have relationships with those who are separating infants and young children from their parents, who profit from government payments to migrant camps, who support the administration that is committing what I consider to be atrocities. I still agonize over this but I had to hit a pause button on a relationship with a dear friend who married a Trump supporter. She is neutral (if it is possible to be neutral...) but that friendship meant having them both over for Thanksgiving and I could not do it. I do not know if our friendship will ever recover or be the same. I mourn this loss but I could not still consider myself a decent person and maintain this relationship.

So back to the point of the distinction I make. Getting into echo chambers and silos is dangerous and I think it is very important to have relationships with people who are different from me. This means that I, a cisgender straight woman who is a (wrong) half Jew, have friends of different religions (Muslim, Christian, atheist), sexual orientations, ethnic backgrounds, genders, and ages, in different parts of the country and the world. I engaged in many debates about Trump, his qualifications (or lack of thereof), his temperament, and likely policies before the election with friends and relatives. I continued to participate in heated but friendly discussions after the election. But he is not simply a person with abhorrent views. His abhorrent views are now the views of my elected government. Hitler did not usurp power, he was democratically elected. So this is the distinction that is important to me - once people with abhorrent views come to power and are capable of inflicting grave harm, I need to find my line. Moreover, I think every decent person needs to be able to find their line.

My apologies, it looks like you already mentioned many good points about the echo chamber (both positive and negative). I completely missed your post. Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to copy you in any way!

 

[PRlady]

I forgot to add that the friendship already took a big strain when during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings he said it was "nonsense" because "back in the day" no one would have considered that sexual assault, that was just "Friday night." He also defended Josh Duggar saying "many brothers get curious with their sisters. It's normal. It's not a big deal." I took a step back from the friendship then for awhile (made lots of "I'm busy" vague excuses) and recently decided to talk to him again and this stuff comes up again.

Which I believe does mean that he thinks the woman is worth less. She is the one who has to make sacrifices. Not the guy. It seems he sees the guy as too important to make those sacrifices.




This is the kind of rhetoric Nazis used against Jews. Just saying.

Ok, now he’s defending not just assault but incest.

I have had friends with whom I had serious political disagreements but I thought they had good values that were (to my mind) expressed the wrong way politically. I have religiously observant friends despite my real antagonism to religion. I even respect a couple of pro-life people, one on this board, because it is consistent with their beliefs holistically and I can’t imagine either one persecuting women who have abortions.

But this guy is beyond my tolerance level and I suspect Matry is right about his equating an Asian female with submission. I wish Michelle Kwan would skate right over some of his body parts.

 

[once_upon]

I think there is tolerance and agree to disagree friendship, but this guy is expressing a disregard and desire for women to submit to men. That crosses a line for me.

I have Facebook friends who are Trump supporters. It depends on the level of friendship - if I can find common ground on other topics and we are respectful of others viewpoint, I keep the friendship. There are some that I unfollow so I don't have to see their political posts, but do visit their page occasionally to see pictures of kids/grandkids/vacations. I think they have probably done the same.

One of my nieces blocked me when I challenged her support of Sheriff Joe and Trump. I really don't miss her and I'm sure she feels the same way. I suspect her brother will follow her footprints because i challenge his "biblical" hatred of LGBTAI people. I suspect my BIL holds those same views, but I never friended him so don't know.

It's a matter of what I can tolerate.

 

[Vagabond]

My apologies, it looks like you already mentioned many good points about the echo chamber (both positive and negative). I completely missed your post. Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to copy you in any way!

You have just demonstrated one of the dangers of living in an echo chamber.

 

[Japanfan]

I am quite surprised how important for so many of you is having friends only with people with the same opinions. Dumping friends because they have different political opinions... and then the society ends up completely fractured. People are not willing to listen to other opinions, it is much easier to listen only to those who agrees with your point of view, no one is willing to find any middle ground, any compromise...

Friends are usually or often people with whom you have things in common, and that includes beliefs and values. Plus, people often make friends who are in their professional or personal circles.

Even so, there is plenty of room for disagreement. For example, I'm having a disagreement with a friend about racism. He believes that most people are not racist, whereas I believe most people are, even if not overtly, consciously, and hatefully. This same friend is pro-Palestinian, and I always present the other side of the argument - when someone is pro-Israel, I do the same, the reason being that I believe a nuanced view is very important with respect to this issue.

And, if a person's political opinion denigrates or demeans me as a woman or me as a Jew, sorry, or denigrates/demeans people other than me, I don't think we're going to become good friends.

Some people refer to this as the echo chamber or a social bubble. It's where you surround yourself only with people who share the same opinions, beliefs, and values. And in these interactions, the same ideas, opinions, and values are bounced right back towards you. It can lead to a situation where these people can become completely intolerant towards those who are different.

I think there is tolerance and agree to disagree friendship, but this guy is expressing a disregard and desire for women to submit to men. That crosses a line for me.

Yes, there have to be lines.

And while I agree that tolerance can be a virtue, there are some things to which intolerance is important - things that would hurt other people or deny them rights. I don't think I could be friends with a pro-life person (believe I said that above) and I certainly couldn't be friends with a while Nationalist.

I do agree that it is important to listen to points of view other than one's own. And in so doing, to challenge one's own views.

 

[misskarne]

I think the "echo chamber" argument is disingenuous. We're not talking about a minor difference of opinion here. OP's friend has made it blatantly clear that he views OP as a lesser human being than him. He supports ideas that are actually dangerous to the OP's health and safety.

He's toxic and I can't believe people are defending him or suggesting the OP needs to keep him. No. She should ditch him as quickly as possible.

 

[skatesindreams]

There are some that I unfollow so I don't have to see their political posts,

I've done that, as well.
These family members believe me "treasonous" if I don't AMEN everything they post!

 

[Ania]

What is a "wrong" half Jew?

@AxelAnnie, sorry, I did not mean to be cryptic. I grew up in the former Soviet Union with a Russian mother and a Jewish father. Growing up, I was often reminded that for Russians descent was traced through the paternal line, and for Russians I was a Jew; but for Jewish people descent was traced through the maternal line, and for Jews I was a Russian.

For many years I was happy to be no one in particular. Given that I do not practice Judaism or know/follow any customs or traditions, I never felt that I had any right to call myself Jewish, so I didn't. But after the Unite the Right rally in Charlottseville and the mass shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue (which is a few blocks away from my house), not acknowledging this part of my heritage felt like hiding. Practicing or not, my children and I would have been plenty enough Jewish for concentration camps in 1934 and then for the gas chambers after WWII started. Therefore, 'wrong half Jew' is the most honest way I know how to describe myself.

My apologies, it looks like you already mentioned many good points about the echo chamber (both positive and negative). I completely missed your post. Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to copy you in any way!

@gk_891, no need to apologize! Your post expanded (in a really thoughtful way) on a point I only made in passing in my post. So no worries about copying, you discussed the issues I completely sidestepped!

 

[gk_891]

I think the "echo chamber" argument is disingenuous. We're not talking about a minor difference of opinion here. OP's friend has made it blatantly clear that he views OP as a lesser human being than him. He supports ideas that are actually dangerous to the OP's health and safety.

He's toxic and I can't believe people are defending him or suggesting the OP needs to keep him. No. She should ditch him as quickly as possible.

I actually agree that this person sounds toxic and I think he sounds horrible. But I'd still argue that it's actually a good thing that he felt comfortable enough around the original poster to voice his (IMO terrible) opinions because at least she knows where she stood with him. If he had hid them instead, she would likely never know that he likely thinks of her as a lesser human being. And under those circumstances, at least she can make her own informed decision whether to be friends with him or not. There's also that saying to keep your friends close but your enemies closer.

I've been in that situation where people who I thought were my friends actually thought of me as a lesser human being. But they didn't dare voice that so I actually thought they were my friends for a very long time. When I found out otherwise, I realized that I've had years and years of interactions which were based off of fraudulent and phony politeness. When people are more open, I at least know who my true friends are.

 

[quartz]

I've dumped hypocritical friends and distanced myself from toxic family members - been an unwilling participant and innocent bystander caught up in too many dramas and bullshit.

I prefer, now, to be friendly with people, rather than actually be friends. I am comfortable in solitude, enjoy my own company, and I don't have to feel like I am a drain on other people's time.

And no one places expectations on me to participate in social activities that I don't want to participate in. I don't have to go to wine and paint nights, or outlet mall trips, or the beach, or watch the bachelor, or go to stupid chick flicks, or home shopping parties.