Eric Radford and Vanessa James to compete in pairs together for Canada

[tony]

I am not judging her I am saying it might be scary for the guy. He might not want that responsibility.

I’m not sure what your point has become, as Radford skated with her throughout her pregnancy and she hasn’t spoke of adding to her family.

 

[Yuri]

Mostly buried in this very active thread is the concept of returning professionals "bumping" other skaters from "their" spots in the Winter Olympics. Of course, for those who have been around skating for a while, this situation was rampant for the 1994 Olympics when the ISU allowed so many former skaters--including a few Olympic Gold medalists--to skate in Lillehammer. As a reminder, here's a list of the Olympic gold medalist returnees and their teammates who got bumped from Olympic glory:

DANCE Jayne Torvill & Christopher Dean (GBR) bumped Marika Humphreys & Justin Lanning; won Bronze medal
PAIRS Ekaterina Gordeeva & Sergei Grinkov (RUS) bumped Marina Eltsova & Andrei Bushkov; won Gold medal
PAIRS Natalia Mishkutenok & Artur Dmitriev (RUS) bumped Oksana Kazakova & Dmitri Sukhanov**; won Silver medal
MEN Brian Boitano (USA) bumped Aren Nielsen OR Todd Eldredge; finished 6th
MEN Viktor Petrenko (UKR) bumped Dmytro Dmytrenko; finished 4th
LADIES Katarina Witt (GER) bumped Marina Kielmann; finished 7th
** The incredibly deep Russian pairs program also had Maria Petrova & Anton Sikharulidze, 6th at Russian Nationals!

There were other notable returnees who did NOT make the Olympics. In the USA, e.g., Renee Roca & Gorsha Sur failed to bump Elizabeth Punsalan & Jerod Swallow in ice dancing and Elaine Zayak fell far short of qualifying in ladies. We've also seen country switching skaters/couples bump an existing national champion to grab an Olympic slot, but I won't try to list those.

I am certainly no expert on the Canadian pairs skating scene, so I really have no idea how 33-year old Vanessa Jones & 36-year old Eric Radford will fair against defending (2019) gold medalists Kristen Moore-Towers & Michael Marinaro & silver medalists Evelyn Walsh & Trennt Michaud, as well as other up-and-coming pairs. Life isn't always fair and, net-net, I believe the returning 1994 stars greatly enhanced the 1994 Olympic figure skating experience, albeit overshadowed a bit by the whack her 'round the world. The formation of a new partnership from World gold and bronze medalists representing different countries is literally a "double twist", so Jones/Radford will have under a year to gel enough to make the Canadian Olympic team, much less the podium. Should be fun!

ETA Dmytro Dmytrenko as the likely bumped skater from Ukraine, correcting my error on Petrenko skating for UKR, NOT RUS.

 

[Cherub721]

I am not judging her I am saying it might be scary for the guy. He might not want that responsibility.

Volosozhar said she didn't tell her partner (celebrity TV partner) she was pregnant for that reason, and they were voted out before it mattered.

I’m not sure what your point has become, as Radford skated with her throughout her pregnancy and she hasn’t spoke of adding to her family.

I think it's just thread drift now because someone made a comment of how can you even skate pregnant.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't recall anyone saying "Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world" when the Catholic Church scandal broke. The rule everyone went by then was, if a child's life and health and safety are at stake, you do what you can do about it, even if it costs you. That's a universal rule.

For all we know, she did do what she could about it even though it may look like she didn't. It is extremely presumptuous say that she didn't. Unless you know that Vanessa James was not herself a victims in one way or another or advised by counsel, law enforcement, or the FFSG to keep quiet, then please give her the benefit of the doubt.

And lest you think that there is no way that James could be a victim, watch this video and ask yourself what are the various ways one might interpret it given what has been posted in this thread by people personally acquainted with James, particularly @cholla herself.

If you want to blame someone then, blame Vinnie Dispenza, blame John Zimmerman, blame Silvia Fontana, and, above all, blame Morgan Ciprès, all of whom clearly fell short of the mark.

 

[Wyliefan]

I didn't say she didn't. Read my post again. I was responding to a point about the general principles in such cases.

Vanessa could very well be a victim herself, and if she is, I feel for her.

 

[Vagabond]

I didn't say she didn't. Read my post again. I was responding to a point about the general principles in such cases.

Vanessa could very well be a victim herself, and if she is, I feel for her.

I have read it again. You didn't say anything about a general principle. You said that there was a "universal rule." If a rule is universal, it applies to Vanessa James.

 

[Wyliefan]

I have read it again. You didn't say anything about a general principle. You said that there was a "universal rule." If a rule is universal, it applies to Vanessa James.

General = universal.

 

[tony]

I'm not oblivious to why people are so worked up about Vanessa, but the simple fact of the matter, like usual, is we don't know all the details. We don't know what happened, we don't know who said what. We don't know if she was told to say nothing, we don't know what her history is.

But there are plenty of other current skaters who like just about everything Morgan puts on Instagram, including Samodurova. @Wyliefan , since details are known now and she's still associating with him, are you also going to stop watching her because you are mad over her decision to not speak out against his charges and/or unfollow and/or cease communication?

I'm not into this 'lists of skaters who' thing that started around the time of Coughlin's death. What he was charged with is disgusting (and I'm not saying guilty of because unfortunately it never got that far), but if someone like Rippon or anyone else wants to remember the good memories he had with said person, then so be it. People here would lose their shit if anyone else tried to tell them how they are supposed to feel, yet here and Twitter we see very strong opinions about how everything should be done.

 

[Wyliefan]

I didn't even say I wasn't going to watch Vanessa, so I'm not sure where the "also" is coming from.

 

[tony]

I didn't even say I wasn't going to watch Vanessa, so I'm not sure where the "also" is coming from.

Fair enough, but you're also here saying 'you do what you can about it'. So only in the moment should people do something? So everyone else who continues to engage and be friends with him it doesn't apply to? What if Vanessa didn't know in that moment? How is it different than Samodurova or anyone else in life (or skating specifically) choosing to still engage with him?

Bottom line is we still don't know what Vanessa knew or didn't know, we don't know when she found out the details, we don't know if she was told to stay quiet, etc. So if you're still going to watch her and enjoy her skating, then great.

 

[Wyliefan]

So if you're still going to watch her and enjoy her skating, then great.

I can't imagine why it matters to you, but I'm so glad you approve.

 

[tony]

I can't imagine why it matters to you, but I'm so glad you approve.

So glad we cleared up the questions I had about what your matter-of-fact statement meant.

 

[Mme Bovary]

Omg...”reproducers”. What’s next? Calling children “crotch fruit”?

I personally prefer "crotch goblins".

 

[Mme Bovary]

Anyone keeping track of the for vs against posts for Meagan, Eric and Vanessa. Wonder who’s got the bigger for/against spread? Don’t think we need to track Morgan.

I would love a quick summary because I stopped reading around page 17. Have I missed anything important that I should go back to?

 

[skatfan]

I am not judging her I am saying it might be scary for the guy. He might not want that responsibility.

Again, we can leave this to the skaters, the coach and her doctor. Plenty of pair women have skated while pregnant. “

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

I personally prefer "crotch goblins".

Rugrats, munchkins, ankle biters, demon spawn from hell...

 

[Stephanie]

Mostly buried in this very active thread is the concept of returning professionals "bumping" other skaters from "their" spots in the Winter Olympics. Of course, for those who have been around skating for a while, this situation was rampant for the 1994 Olympics when the ISU allowed so many former skaters--including a few Olympic Gold medalists--to skate in Lillehammer. As a reminder, here's a list of the Olympic gold medalist returnees and their teammates who got bumped from Olympic glory:

DANCE Jayne Torvill & Christopher Dean (GBR) bumped Marika Humphreys & Justin Lanning; won Bronze medal
PAIRS Ekaterina Gordeeva & Sergei Grinkov (RUS) bumped Marina Eltsova & Andrei Bushkov; won Gold medal
PAIRS Natalia Mishkutenok & Artur Dmitriev (RUS) bumped Oksana Kazakova & Dmitri Sukhanov**; won Silver medal
MEN Brian Boitano (USA) bumped Aren Nielsen OR Todd Eldredge; finished 6th
MEN Viktor Petrenko (RUS) bumped Alexander Abt; finished 4th
LADIES Katarina Witt (GER) bumped Marina Kielmann; finished 7th
** The incredibly deep Russian pairs program also had Maria Petrova & Anton Sikharulidze, 6th at Russian Nationals!

Viktor Petrenko represented Ukraine, not Russia. Vyacheslav Zahorodnyuk or Dmytro Dmytrenko was the one who lost out here.

 

[Viscaro]

Caring for an abuser is not enabling the abuse ! The things that are shameful about the Catholic Church in your example @Wyliefan is not that the Catholic Church cared about the abusive priests, but that the Church protected them from the law and in some cases put them in contact with children again. Same for the Boy Scouts of America, by the way.

If an Archbishop is friend with a pedophile priest, well that would be weird to me (and none of my business) but not morally reprehensible. Not reporting his crimes, and as his superior not stopping his involvement with children, however is what I'm angry at the Church about.

So your rule :

The rule everyone went by then was, if a child's life and health and safety are at stake, you do what you can do about it, even if it costs you

does not apply with friendship with known abusers. There is no health and safety at stake if James makes the classic hypocritical twitter apology and joins the hate bandwagon of her former partner. If she says publicly that she thinks Morgan is trash, well she is not saving children's life. This would not be a twitter statement in a life and death situation.

To me your rule only applies in the case James knew Ciprès abuse before it went public and tried to hide his actions, and so far I have seen no proof of that. While the absence of proof is no proof of innocence, that's still a reason to stop the which hunt.

 

[Wyliefan]

That scenario is exactly what I was referring to. And as I've acknowledged all along, we don't know that that scenario happened. So once again, I'm speaking in terms of general principles.

 

[MacMadame]

I would love a quick summary because I stopped reading around page 17. Have I missed anything important that I should go back to?

No.

 

[chewy]

There was something Meagan had said as a commentator during 2021 Worlds that was twigging on my brain, and it was not until today that I could go back and watch. It was on the CBC coverage of the Worlds Pairs Long so March 25. My TV DVR says recorded March 27 so this might have been the Saturday afternoon broadcast. While Canada #2 Trennt and Evelyn were skating Meagan was talking about their choreographer and she said "......program choreographed by their coach Allison Purkis and my partner, or my old partner, Eric Radford." That's the exact quote, I rewound it a couple of times. This stuck with me a little bit because the way she corrected herself to say her old partner made me think that Meagan had someone new. But that's not what is happening. I've seen all these timelines of he said she said and I think this is before Eric tells Meagan because the French Fed release came through. But in hindsight, it was a weird mis-spoke.

 

[barbarafan]

Haha. Why do I have visions of 15 year old girls (who look 5) being paired with 7 foot giants doing sbs triple lutz/triple toe combos, quint twist lifts and quint throws left and right.

and not eating

 

[barbarafan]

Haha. Why do I have visions of 15 year old girls (who look 5) being paired with 7 foot giants doing sbs triple lutz/triple toe combos, quint twist lifts and quint throws left and right.

and not eating

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It depends on how far along she was. An embryo and an early fetus aren't going to fall out of the uterus when a woman falls. That only happens on tv. But as the pregnancy progresses, your center of balance changes which makes certain skating moves harder. I know people who skate until very late in their pregnancy but as it progresses they limit what they do.

Not that it is remotely the same.

But I remember how fearful I felt when Janet Lynn accepted a US Hall of Fame award at the 1994 National Championships in Detroit.

At the time she looked about 7 or 8 months pregnant, and walked out onto the ice (or at least on a temporary red carpet covering it) at the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit wearing high heels, no less.

 

[anonymoose_au]

You must follow some different people, most of my Twitter feed is very positive for the new pairing.

Man where do you go on Twitter? I tried looking up figure skating yesterday and all I found was tweet after tweet of how horrible Eric and Vanessa are, in one instance a bunch of fans were talking about forming a mob to beat the shit out of Eric (they were probably joking but WTAF?) and another about taking Eric's medals away and giving them to someone more "deserving".

To say nothing of the skaters now on the hitlist, Asher Hill and Guillaume are now trash.

And I put my search results in date order so likes shouldn't have influenced it.

I hardly ever find anything positive about skating on Twitter it's always about Yuzuru being underscored or similar, so and so being the absolute worst and how shitty the scoring system is (that one might be legit).

 

[Sparks]

You're not using twitter in a good way.
I actually have a positive experience on FS twitter. I only follow reliable accounts and I don't engage with the fringy people.
Follow your friends and people you trust. Ignore the others.

 

[yfbg722]

And when the fathers leave the house to go to work?

Zoey would go to daycare, the same as she would if Meagan were working at home. Meagan has shared posts of Zoey going to daycare and loving it. I've also seen lots of coaches bring their babies to work where skating moms and skaters are more than happy to help out. It could definitely be done.

 

[Vagabond]

General = universal.

general ≠ universal
principle ≠ rule
general principle ≠ universal rule

The General and the Universal

The distinction is between what I’ll call the general and the universal. Roughly, things that are universally true are true in all cases, whereas things that are generally true are true across contexts.

Principles vs. Rules

Although both things determine the way you act and take decisions, rules are imposed from the outside and must be obeyed to avoid incurring some kind of penalty (a punishment, a fine, a layoff, a season in jail, etc.) whereas principles are internal, and force you to do what you think it is right or correct.

Principle vs Rule - What's the difference?

As nouns the difference between principle and rule is that principle is a fundamental assumption while rule is a regulation, law, guideline.

Take, for example, this:

The problem is that doing the same publically can give the impression that you don't care about the victim or what the victim endured. And the how the victim (and their loved ones) feels should take precedence.

True. It should. But unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.

As a general principle, how the victim feels should take precedence. As a general principle, a female pairs skater whose partner sent sexts to two girls, how those girls feel should take precedence and govern how that skater conducts herself. It is not, however, as you suggest, a universal rule. Where, for example, the female pairs skater has been instructed by her counsel, law enforcement, or her federation to conduct herself in a certain way or where the pairs skater is herself a victim of abuse at the hands of her partner, there is an exception to the general rule, namely that her own concerns take precedence. Hence, there is no universal rule.

I am sure that you mean well, Wyliefan, but your black-and-white view of how other people should conduct themselves does a disservice to victims and to the legal process.

 

[Jenny]

x1000

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

It isn't a great idea to skate ---- particularly in pairs --- when you're pregnant, because spinning can have bad effects on the fetus, and what pairs program lacks spinning (sbs, pairs, death spiral).

I have read the whole thread and THIS post is what makes me cringe the most. Babies/foetus need movement +++ even inside the womb. Being bedridden would be worse for the baby.

I guess we need to educate people about what is truly important to babies for their optimal development.

As for the rest (Meagan Eric and Vanessa), we don’t control people. We can say we would have made things differently though. But even then, who in here manages perfectly all their interactions with others? We all have sucked at some point or chocked when we should have said something to someone. We all went over the top for other stuff. It’s not because they are tool skaters than they have top relational abilities.

Many Olympians, well the vast majority go through major self-searching when they retire. Who are they apart from an athlete training 6 hours a day and having their mind focussed on their goal 24/24? Depression, wandering around redefining yourself as someone else than a skater... Not easy.