CAS rules Valieva can compete - reactions/fallout, plus some details from the hearing

[overedge]

I wasn’t saying YOU said they were dreaming of money for themselves. I am assuming this. That they are greedy and chasing fame and fortune for themselves and their daughter by IGNORING the abuse of the coaching environment.

And I am saying that your assumption may be wrong. There are many reasons why parents might let their children go to Eteri, and many of them don't involve greed or fame. You're completely overlooking those.

And why are you ignoring the very real possibility that the parents don't know about the abuse? Why do you think Eteri makes some of her skaters' parents live somewhere else?

 

[skatingguy]

How much does the Soviet tradition of talented children going off to serve the state play into the thinking of these parents? If this is normal practice how much are they going to question the practices of the coach?

 

[Allskate]

Putting aside all of the things in the document that contradict what WADA and experts have said, this really stood out:

aking into account the potential irreparable harm to the Athlete as a result of such measures: “The Athlete is one of the leaders in figure skating, therefore non-participation in the Winter Olympic Games in Beijing will be an irreparable harm for the Athlete, who is one of the main contenders for gold in the individual classification”.

The Athlete is one of the leaders in figure skating, therefore non-participation in the Winter Olympic Games in Beijing will be an irreparable harm for the Athlete, who is one of the main contenders for gold in the individual classification”.

So, the moral of the story is that, if you're going to dope, do a really good job of doping so that you can be a medal contender. If you aren't a medal contender, then you need to be more careful. Because that's what determines irreparable harm. Craaazzzyyy! That is so inconsistent with the Olympic spirt.

 

[MacMadame]

Later in the document it says: "The Athlete declared the following three products on her Doping Control Form at the Doping Control: L-carnitine, supradyn and hypoxen4"

In case people don't feel like Googling, supradyn is a multi-vitamin. They say it's for active people and particularly athletes. It comes in different forms, including a time-released version.

Time-release vitamins are interesting because it might help them to be better absorbed. For example, our bodies can only absorb a certain amount of calcium at a time. If you want to get the full daily recommended amount in your multi-vitamin, it would have to be time-released or you'd have to take calcium several times a day.

 

[manhn]

This is why we aren't having a TE medal ceremony, IMO

About six hours before she took to the ice, Russian Olympic Committee president Stanislav Pozdnyakov said he would not give up the team event gold medal “under any circumstances, regardless of the results of the disciplinary investigation into the athlete.”

I didn’t realize that the athletes who lost their medals after the fact voluntarily returned their medal? I just assumed the other athletes got a medal or a “better” medal and the official results were modified. The other athlete kept their medal anyway because who is going to take the time to get it back?

 

[overedge]

I didn’t realize that the athletes who lost their medals after the fact voluntarily returned their medal? I just assumed the other athletes got a medal or a “better” medal and the official results were modified. The other athlete kept their medal anyway because who is going to take the time to get it back?

IIRC Debbi Wilkes said that when she and Guy Revell won bronze at the Olympics and then got silver after the 2nd place couple were disqualified, they were never asked to give the bronze medals back. I guess the "new" bronze medalists got new bronze medals.

 

[Rafter]

And I am saying that your assumption may be wrong. There are many reasons why parents might let their children go to Eteri, and many of them don't involve greed or fame. You're completely overlooking those.

And why are you ignoring the very real possibility that the parents don't know about the abuse? Why do you think Eteri makes some of her skaters' parents live somewhere else?

I’m not overlooking anything. I am just assuming that greed and ambition are getting in the way of proper parenting. Of course I could be wrong in the case of Valieva.

As for your second paragraph, I don’t buy it. Just because parents may live somewhere else doesn’t mean the kids don’t communicate via phone, text, video call with their parents and tell them things.

 

[Cachoo]

I think what gnaws at me is the person who had the positive test. She is a little younger than the other two and Aliona and she is astonishing, astounding…you name it. She really is a once in a generation skater and we saw her quality throughout this season. If they are doping you would think they would be extra careful with her. What if someone wanted her to fail a test?

 

[overedge]

I’m not overlooking anything. I am just assuming that greed and ambition is getting in the way of proper parenting. Of course I could be wrong in the case of Valieva.

As for your second paragraph, I don’t buy it. Just because parents may live somewhere else doesn’t mean the kids don’t communicate via phone, text, video call with their parents and tell them stuff.

And if a young skater is being abused, and knows that the state wants her to train with that coach, and knows that her parents have put her in that training situation with high hopes - how likely do you think it is that the skater is going to tell her parents what's really going on?

You might want to read this and substitute "training program" for "cult". https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202105/protect-children-harm-destructive-cults

 

[Rafter]

I think what gnaws at me is the person who had the positive test. She is a little younger than the other two and Aliona and she is astonishing, astounding…you name it. She really is a once in a generation skater and we saw her quality throughout this season. If they are doping you would think they would be extra careful with her. What if someone wanted her to fail a test?

I had this thought. What if someone set her up? Like a close competitor or training partner. This is big conspiracy theory stuff and maybe I’ve been watching too many episodes of The Americans.

 

[Vagabond]

As for your second paragraph, I don’t buy it. Just because parents may live somewhere else doesn’t mean the kids don’t communicate via phone, text, video call with their parents and tell them stuff.

If they don't perceive what is happening as anything wrong, the won't describe what is happening in a way that their parents or anyone else would perceive it as abuse.

On the other hand, if they do perceive what is happening as something wrong, they may conceal or downplay it so that they and their parents don't get into trouble.

If you look at the Larry Nassar and Richard Strauss cases, for example, you will come across accounts of athletes who never understood what was happening to them until they learned what other victims were describing and other athletes who knew all along that something was amiss but didn't tell anyone about it for years.

I had this thought. What if someone set her up? Like a close competitor or training partner. This is big conspiracy theory stuff and maybe I’ve been watching too many episodes of The Americans.

You've been watching too many episodes of The Americans.

 

[Cachoo]

I had this thought. What if someone set her up? Like a close competitor or training partner. This is big conspiracy theory stuff and maybe I’ve been watching too many episodes of The Americans.

I know and it is conjecture. But you have all of these people trying to get to the top. I guess we’ll never know but I do hope we see her again.

 

[soogar]

I had this thought. What if someone set her up? Like a close competitor or training partner. This is big conspiracy theory stuff and maybe I’ve been watching too many episodes of The Americans.

Looking at Trusova’s reaction, it very well could be a set up. Maybe not even from within their camp.

Katarina Witt has been speaking up about this and she made a good point that they haven’t made any findings yet on her test. She has a positive test but that could have been an aberration. Imagine if Valieva went though all this (and it majorly affected her performance) and they find out it was lab error or sample got adulterated or mixed up. Katarina also felt that it was wrong not to have podium ceremonies and make this athlete the reason there were no ceremonies.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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[MacMadame]

Occam's Razor suggests that they gave her the daily dose one day too late to not show up on the test. That jives with the amount found in the sample and the timing of getting it before leaving for St. Petersburg.

 

[once_upon]

I’m not overlooking anything. I am just assuming that greed and ambition are getting in the way of proper parenting. Of course I could be wrong in the case of Valieva.

As for your second paragraph, I don’t buy it. Just because parents may live somewhere else doesn’t mean the kids don’t communicate via phone, text, video call with their parents and tell them things.

I've been pretty conflicted over the parenting thing. Russia is a bleaker place than where I live.

When we were in St. Petersburg on a cruise stop, we were overwhelmed by the miles and miles of barrack type apartment buildings. I've never seen anything like it. Yes there were beautiful parts of the city and someday after I've checked off all my other places to see, I would go back.

But it was the miles and miles of those apartment buildings that got to me. I can on a basic level understand parents thinking their children would have a better life if they could get into a state sponsored sports system.

Kids may not have access to communications with parents. Not everyone has phones. Internet, etc. Kids may have to earn the privileges to communicate with parents. Parents maybe told to get the best results, Kids need to be free of family responsibilities and focus solely on school and sports.

I dont think I can equate the US standards with Russia standards. I dont live there, I don't know what they experience.

Yes, I'm angry the Kamila's mom and grandpa are telling the spittle story. But what threats were given to them, unless they cooperated. Sure it could be the parent and grandparent had been money grabbers/risking child's life/only want fame, but our assumptions are just that.

 

[becca]

I've been pretty conflicted over the parenting thing. Russia is a bleaker place than where I live.

When we were in St. Petersburg on a cruise stop, we were overwhelmed by the miles and miles of barrack type apartment buildings. I've never seen anything like it. Yes there were beautiful parts of the city and someday after I've checked off all my other places to see, I would go back.

But it was the miles and miles of those apartment buildings that got to me. I can on a basic level understand parents thinking their children would have a better life if they could get into a state sponsored sports system.

Kids may not have access to communications with parents. Not everyone has phones. Internet, etc. Kids may have to earn the privileges to communicate with parents. Parents maybe told to get the best results, Kids need to be free of family responsibilities and focus solely on school and sports.

I dont think I can equate the US standards with Russia standards. I dont live there, I don't know what they experience.

Yes, I'm angry the Kamila's mom and grandpa are telling the spittle story. But what threats were given to them, unless they cooperated. Sure it could be the parent and grandparent had been money grabbers/risking child's life/only want fame, but our assumptions are just that.

I agree with you. It gives their kid an opportunity for a better life

 

[caseyedwards]

Well after nazis destroyed most of st petersberg communists authorities built the fastest cheapest dwellings they could! And of Course it being communist there was never any effort to modernize things like apartments. Remember the stories of Olympic champion Alexsi urmanov actually still living in those apartment buildings?!?! I mean he didn’t even actually get out of them for years and years. His problem had a lot to deal with a combo of still wanting to compete and Russia really collapsing economically further after he win. I mean he could have been like kulik and moved to America the day after he won

 

[once_upon]

This was not to bring in politics of how/why the society is how it is. I just meant I don't think I can say how horrible parents are or motivation, using my assumptions that life is equal here and there

 

[canbelto]

If you really wamnt your heart broken, here's a video of 5 year old Kamila skating. She's so joyful and adorable. SO different from the broken and burned out girl we saw today.

Kamila Valieva, 5-year-old program(2S attempt)

www.youtube.com

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Don’t know if this has been posted..

Read: Court releases full decision on why it let skater Kamila Valieva compete in Olympics — Axios

The top court in sports published a 41-page report on Thursday detailing why it allowed Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva to continue competing at the Beijing Winter Olympics and why banning her would cause her "irreparable harm."

apple.news

 

[Sylvia]

Don’t know if this has been posted..

Yes (CAS' 41 page decision document is linked here): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-from-the-hearing.109428/page-13#post-6210555

Inside The Games article:

CAS slams anti-doping bodies' "failure to function effectively" in Valieva case

The Court of Arbitration for Sport panel which cleared Kamila Valieva to compete in the women's event at Beijing 2022 has been scathing in its critici...

www.insidethegames.biz

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) panel which cleared Kamila Valieva to compete in the women's event at Beijing 2022 has been scathing in its criticism of the World Anti-doping Agency (WADA), calling one of its submissions "rather worrying" and condemning a "failure to function effectively" from anti-doping authorities.
The full written judgement has been published, explaining the CAS Panel's decision not to uphold WADA and International Skating Union appeals to reinstate a provisional suspension against Valieva.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Tara Lipinski, Johnny Weir Commentary Terse During Kamila Valieva's Skate, Say 'Thank God' She Doesn't Medal​

Tara Lipinski, Johnny Weir Commentary Terse During Kamila Valieva's Skate, Say 'Thank God' She Doesn't Medal

Kamila Valieva's performance in the women's figure skating final was full of uncharacteristic mistakes, keeping her from the podium

people.com

 

[MacMadame]

Some more points from the CAS hearing.

After the section on known/accepted facts, there is a section where the parties involved go back and forth on procedural issues. One such area was who could attend, who were the interesting parties and whether the hearing would be hybrid or all online.

So the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee (USOPC) and the Canadian Olympic Committee (COC) requested the opportunity to be “silent observers” in this procedure. The WADA Independent Observers asked to attend as well. All of these requests were denied but for different reasons. USOPC and COC were denied because the procedures didn't allow for them to be involved. The WADA Independent Observers were denied because there wasn't unanimous agreement to having them there.

The hearing was supposed to be hybrid but only if all parties agreed. "The athletes" did not so everything was done via video.

The interested parties all had people speak. The interested parties are:

The IOC. They had a lawyer

WADA. They had 3 lawyers and two experts

The ISU: The Director-General, a lawyer and their Anit-doping Director

Ms. Valieva: Herself and her mom, the team manager, SIX lawyers, two experts, and an interpreter

RUSADA: 4 lawyers

ROC: 2 lawyers, the Olympic Games Attaché, the Head of Legal and the Deputy Head of Legal

Day'um that's a lot of lawyers!!

Next, "the athlete" objected to the appointment of Jeffrey Benz. This is the paragraph:

At the outset of the hearing, the Athlete raised concerns regarding the appointment of Mr Jeffrey Benz as arbitrator given his prior status as a figure skater competing for the United States in his youth and the fact that he was previously employed (15 years ago) by the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee. Mr Jeffrey Benz clarified that his previous position at the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee and his nationality do not affect his independence and impartiality to decide the case. However, the Athlete did not formally challenge his appointment at any time. In addition, the Athlete expressed her objections with respect to the jurisdiction of the CAS Ad Hoc Division (see below) and the expedited nature of the procedure. Besides, there were no formal objections to the constitution of the Panel and the Parties confirmed not having any objection as to the specific conduct of the proceedings

So these things were brought up but there was no formal objection so everything proceeded from there.

The next section is about everyone's submissions and is long so I will come back to it later. If there is interest.

 

[millyskate]

This just keeps getting worse and worse. Can we ban Russia from the Olympics already?

Well at the very least I hope the ISU bans Eteri from being accredited at future competitions.
They would absolutely have the leaway to withhold accreditations from coaches they know to be abusive but they have never done so far.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Bach talks about offering to meet with Japan and US starting at 11:50 into the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFUIIlpxWsQ

Per Bach: unlike previously reported the Olympic torches were not supposed to be a "replacement" for the medal ceremony. They were a thank you for meeting with them and offering constructive advice on what changes needed to be made going forward.


Japan declined the meeting on behalf of the athletes but I really wish they would have had the same opportunity as the US skaters too. Maybe they could have gotten torches too and, last but not least, had an opportunity to say what they would like to see happen in the future of figure skating.

 

[Japanfan]

Well I think the parents are fair game. It’s a parent’s responsibility to protect their child from abusive situations.

These parents are greedy. Using their children as a means to a better life ($$$), while overlooking abuse, doping, mental and emotional well-being, eating disorders etc. It’s rather pathetic.

In the book 'Little Girls in Pretty Boxes', Joan Ryan talks a lot about gymnastics and some about figure skating as well. It's a good read, I recommend it.

She talks about Bella Karoyli and his wife, who seem to have abused their gymnasts. Says they had to order food in on the sly at the Olympics because they were starving. Says that Bella taught them that eating was a weakness, and shamed them once when he caught them eating peaches. One of his athletes died of an eating disorder but it was years after she had competed, which caused some to say that it wasn't Karolyi's fault. This girl died before the age of the 30, even though she was engaged to be married and had a whole life ahead her. The problem was, she couldn't think of anything she wanted to eat. No food interested her or appealed to her.

So, she died.

 

[skategal]

I didn’t realize that the athletes who lost their medals after the fact voluntarily returned their medal? I just assumed the other athletes got a medal or a “better” medal and the official results were modified. The other athlete kept their medal anyway because who is going to take the time to get it back?

Pretty sure Jamie Sale said they had to give the silver medals back.

She was criticized for saying she was getting attached to the silver and felt sad giving it back.

 

[Debbie S]

In the book 'Little Girls in Pretty Boxes', Joan Ryan talks a lot about gymnastics and some about figure skating as well. It's a good read, I recommend it.

She talks about Bella Karoyli and his wife, who seems to have abused their gymnasts. Says they had to order food in on the sly at the Olympics because they were starving. Says that Bella taught them that eating was a weakness, and shamed them once when he caught them eating peaches. One of his athletes died of an eating disorder but it was years after she had competed, which caused some to say that it wasn't Karolyi's fault. This girl died before the age of the 30, even though she was engaged to be married and had a whole life ahead her. The problem was, she couldn't think of anything she wanted to eat. No food interested her or appealed to her.

So, she died.

Yes, Bela and Martha were monsters. It sounds like Eteri took lessons from them.

But for the sake of accuracy, the gymnast discussed in that book who died of anorexia was not a student of the Karolyis. Her coach was Al Fong, who is still coaching.

 

[manhn]

I didn’t want to mention them as it triggers posters but I was referring to athletes who lost their medals to some dq if some sort like doping or cheating. Who cares if Team ROC never returned gold?

 

[Vagabond]

I didn’t want to mention them as it triggers posters but I was referring to athletes who lost their medals to some dq if some sort like doping or cheating. Who cares if Team ROC never returned gold?

It's part of fair play, without which sports is meaningless.