Callaghan suspended over sexual abuse allegations

[overedge]

That's also common sense, and is banned in many work settings: don't date or get romantically involved with or do anything romantic with someone lower/higher than you on the totem pole. Again, it's not that hard.

The coach should know not to proposition the student. If the student is the one to approach the coach, the coach should turn them down.

This is even more important in workplaces like ice rinks, where the coaches often work closely together. A relationship between a coach and a skater could have a lot of adverse effects on the coach's co-workers, not to mention on other skaters.

 

[Tinami Amori]

That's also common sense, and is banned in many work settings: don't date or get romantically involved with or do anything romantic with someone lower/higher than you on the totem pole. Again, it's not that hard. The coach should know not to proposition the student. If the student is the one to approach the coach, the coach should turn them down

I agree that work place and sports are not intended for "dating/romance", people are paid to work not flirt and date, and any hanky panky can divert people's attention from their primary function/purpose. There is time and place for everything. If two people meet in such places and want to have a relationship that's fine, but they need to take it outside, keep it professional while at work/sports facility.

But the rest of the "concerns" is nothing more than "moralizing" and subjective: age difference, ranks, teacher-student factor... It is possible that when two people meet, "student-teacher" or "boss-employee" or "19 and 35 year old", they might have found a true love, a life long partner, or! a nice affair, a great sexual experience, a fun one night stand... If they are consenting adults, who is to say they can not have a relationship outside of work/sports facility?

Also, when 2 people meet and there is an attraction, one of them has to make the first move... Of course such 'first move" must be done in a respectful form, and not repeated if rejected. Otherwise what's a problem, if one asks the other out on a date AFTER the working hours or training session?

If these two people end up getting married, then good for them. If they end up having a one night stand, even better, both had a fun evening or an afternoon... if they don't like being married - they'll divorce; if they don't like how the sex went, they won't do it again..... Who cares what their rank or age is (if they are consenting adults).....

 

[Anita18]

I agree that work place and sports are not intended for "dating/romance", people are paid to work not flirt and date, and any hanky panky can divert people's attention from their primary function/purpose. There is time and place for everything. If two people meet in such places and want to have a relationship that's fine, but they need to take it outside, keep it professional while at work/sports facility.

But the rest of the "concerns" is nothing more than "moralizing" and subjective: age difference, ranks, teacher-student factor... It is possible that when two people meet, "student-teacher" or "boss-employee" or "19 and 35 year old", they might have found a true love, a life long partner, or! a nice affair, a great sexual experience, a fun one night stand... If they are consenting adults, who is to say they can not have a relationship outside of work/sports facility?

Also, when 2 people meet and there is an attraction, one of them has to make the first move... Of course such 'first move" must be done in a respectful form, and not repeated if rejected. Otherwise what's a problem, if one asks the other out on a date AFTER the working hours or training session?

If these two people end up getting married, then good for them. If they end up having a one night stand, even better, both had a fun evening or an afternoon... if they don't like being married - they'll divorce; if they don't like how the sex went, they won't do it again..... Who cares what their rank or age is (if they are consenting adults).....

I highly suspect, given their moderate age difference and educational timelines, that my parents met when he was an uni lecturer and she was a grad student. (I don't know if he taught her. It's plausible, but it's hush-hush in our family, they've never divulged the details LOL. She didn't finish her masters' there, so he wasn't her thesis advisor for sure.)

It's amusingly juicy given how low-key they are, but here's where the difference lies for me - my mom was in her 20s, already making very grown-up decisions, which included immigrating from her native country by herself, to find better opportunities in the US. If the relationship went south, she could have switched classes, or transferred to another uni. She could have quit the masters' and started working. She could have done anything she liked. And he wasn't her thesis advisor at any rate - he himself didn't hold that much sway over her immediate future.

What can a teenager do when a romantic relationship with a mentor figure goes south? Or even an elite athlete, out of their teens but still very dependent on that individual coach for their immediate success? The power differential is much more pronounced when that mentor holds that much sway over the future of their student.

If my parents started dating if he was her thesis advisor, I think that would have been inappropriate too. But for all I know, she saw him in the cafetera and thought he was cute, and he just so happened to be a lecturer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Twilight1]

It is the power dynamic imvho.

Looking back at Morozov. He had relationships with how many students? Sure they may have been consenting adults but it is still smarming esp when you take in additional factors of him already being married to other people...

 

[Tinami Amori]

If the relationship went south, she could have switched classes, or transferred to another uni. She could have quit the masters' and started working. She could have done anything she liked. And he wasn't her thesis advisor at any rate - he himself didn't hold that much sway over her immediate future.

Why would any one in a right mind quit a masters' programme just because sleeping with the teacher did not work out? Just don't sleep with the teacher anymore, and do your masters'....

What can a teenager do when a romantic relationship with a mentor figure goes south? Or even an elite athlete, out of their teens but still very dependent on that individual coach for their immediate success? The power differential is much more pronounced when that mentor holds that much sway over the future of their student.

.... same thing.... stop having those "after hours" relationship, and keep just to skating..... Just because he/she is not good in bed, or does not suit you romantically, does not mean he/she is a bad teacher/coach. Coaching is coaching, sex is sex..

 

[Anita18]

.... same thing.... stop having those "after hours" relationship, and keep just to skating..... Just because he/she is not good in bed, or does not suit you romantically, does not mean he/she is a bad teacher/coach. Coaching is coaching, sex is sex..

Sure, that would happen in an ideal world, as would an amicable divorce involving kids....but I can count only ONE amicable divorce involving kids that I can think of in my entire network. (As in, the parents voluntarily spend time with each other without being court-ordered. Amazingly, these are my in-laws, so I majorly lucked out.)

Usually, divorced parents set out to destroy one another, with the kids stuck in the middle.

Never, ever underestimate someone's ego in the wake of a breakup. For 99% of people, it's just better not to get mired in something so dicey to start with.

 

[Twilight1]

Emotions can be very vindictive.

In ideal world we all walk around rational and logical and use wisdom to guide our decisions and interactions with others.

However, energy from emotions feeds energy in actions and you have people at each others throats.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Sure, that would happen in an ideal world, as would an amicable divorce involving kids....but I can count only ONE amicable divorce involving kids that I can think of in my entire network. (As in, the parents voluntarily spend time with each other without being court-ordered. Amazingly, these are my in-laws, so I majorly lucked out.)

Usually, divorced parents set out to destroy one another, with the kids stuck in the middle.

Never, ever underestimate someone's ego in the wake of a breakup. For 99% of people, it's just better not to get mired in something so dicey to start with.

I am sorry, but just because of your personal life experiences and expectations "how break ups go and affect people", you wan to MAKE IT LAW who and how should date and have sex?

Should your assumption of what "ego does in the break up" be used for Official Sports Association Rules in dating or sex for consenting adults in teacher/student cases? Should normal headed people be punished for few emotionally disbalanced people?

 

[MacMadame]

Usually, divorced parents set out to destroy one another, with the kids stuck in the middle.

Usually? Not in my network. There may be some dysfunction but the parents try and do okay if not great.

 

[dramagrrl]

When you are a coach (or a teacher, or in a similar position of authority), you have significant power and influence over the person you are coaching. Even if the student is of "adult" age (according to legality wherever they live), there is a power imbalance. A student may "consent" to something when caught in that power dynamic because s/he thinks that saying no would have a negative effect on their career (which often could be very true), or even because s/he thinks that saying no would affect the positive coaching relationship they have had to that point. When that student is out of that imbalanced coach/student relationship - months later, or years, who knows? - they may look back on the relationship and realize that the "consent" they gave was not actual consent because they were being influenced, directly or subconsciously, by the power that the coach figure had over them.

Using gymnastics as an example, there were a few victims of Nassar's that were of legal age or at least age of consent when he started abusing them. I am sure that some of them never actually said NO to him directly. Many of them believed him to be a "friend" and didn't realize what he was doing to them until months or even years later. In the case of Don Peters, who was a high level gymnastics coach who was known to have had sexual relationships with more than one of his students (some who were underage when he started sleeping with them, some who were of age), many people in the gymnastics community who were closely involved with the cases and a few of the anonymous gymnastics who accused him said that when the affairs were happening, the young women saw themselves as being in a consensual relationship and even imagined themselves to be Peters' "girlfriend". It was only when they were out of the sport and away from the authority he had over them that they realized that it was a coercive situation in which they never felt they had the option to deny consent.

There is a very good reason why most teacher/student type relationships have safeguards built into them that do not allow the teacher figure to take advantage of the authority they hold over their students. If a dynamic develops in which both the teacher and student are of legal age of consent and they want to start a relationship, and they both decide that pursuing a romantic or sexual relationship would be more important to them than maintaining their teacher/student relationship, they should end the imbalanced teacher/student relationship and make the break very clear before starting a romantic or sexual relationship.

 

[poths]

When you are a coach (or a teacher, or in a similar position of authority), you have significant power and influence over the person you are coaching. Even if the student is of "adult" age (according to legality wherever they live), there is a power imbalance. A student may "consent" to something when caught in that power dynamic because s/he thinks that saying no would have a negative effect on their career (which often could be very true), or even because s/he thinks that saying no would affect the positive coaching relationship they have had to that point. When that student is out of that imbalanced coach/student relationship - months later, or years, who knows? - they may look back on the relationship and realize that the "consent" they gave was not actual consent because they were being influenced, directly or subconsciously, by the power that the coach figure had over them.

.

Absolutely.

 

[overedge]

If the student is so irresistible when they're your student, they'll still be that irresistible when they're not your student. If they aren't, then your attraction to them was based on something else, and you should think about why that happened.

There were two very messy situations at my workplace: one where a co-worker was dating a student (without their respective spouses knowing) and another where an instructor got divorced and then started dating students that had been in their class and were still students. I have to say that before experiencing these, I didn't really understand how destructive and far-reaching the impacts of these kinds of relationships can be.

IMO if an instructor is attracted to a student and it seems to be mutual, either they or the student should leave the organization if they want to have a relationship. I realize this may not be financially practical in a lot of situations, but it's the more ethical thing to do.

 

[Sk8yDad]

When you are a coach (or a teacher, or in a similar position of authority), you have significant power and influence over the person you are coaching. Even if the student is of "adult" age (according to legality wherever they live), there is a power imbalance. A student may "consent" to something when caught in that power dynamic because s/he thinks that saying no would have a negative effect on their career (which often could be very true), or even because s/he thinks that saying no would affect the positive coaching relationship they have had to that point. When that student is out of that imbalanced coach/student relationship - months later, or years, who knows? - they may look back on the relationship and realize that the "consent" they gave was not actual consent because they were being influenced, directly or subconsciously, by the power that the coach figure had over them.

Using gymnastics as an example, there were a few victims of Nassar's that were of legal age or at least age of consent when he started abusing them. I am sure that some of them never actually said NO to him directly. Many of them believed him to be a "friend" and didn't realize what he was doing to them until months or even years later. In the case of Don Peters, who was a high level gymnastics coach who was known to have had sexual relationships with more than one of his students (some who were underage when he started sleeping with them, some who were of age), many people in the gymnastics community who were closely involved with the cases and a few of the anonymous gymnastics who accused him said that when the affairs were happening, the young women saw themselves as being in a consensual relationship and even imagined themselves to be Peters' "girlfriend". It was only when they were out of the sport and away from the authority he had over them that they realized that it was a coercive situation in which they never felt they had the option to deny consent.

There is a very good reason why most teacher/student type relationships have safeguards built into them that do not allow the teacher figure to take advantage of the authority they hold over their students. If a dynamic develops in which both the teacher and student are of legal age of consent and they want to start a relationship, and they both decide that pursuing a romantic or sexual relationship would be more important to them than maintaining their teacher/student relationship, they should end the imbalanced teacher/student relationship and make the break very clear before starting a romantic or sexual relationship.[/QUOTE/]

You are so correct.
Similarly:

A lawyer should not date his client;
A doctor should not date his patient;
A religious leader should not date one of his congregation;
A drill sergeant should not date his trainee; and
A teacher should not date his student.

There is an imbalance of power in these and other similar situations.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Followup article by ABC News:

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/delibe...ting-reckoning-sexual-abuse/story?id=53689618

 

[Judy]

Developing a story based on fact is one thing. Based on conjecture or claims with no evidence is another.

Rumors floating on discussion boards with no real evidence to support claims ends up sparking a flame that shouldn't exist. Let's be careful as fans, not to buy into drama and possibly mar someone's reputation without solid evidence about an immoral behavior.

Speculating and spreading false information based on guesses or assumptions, is not going to help our beloved sport. Let's wait and see what the investigations find.

 

[Simone411]

Developing a story based on fact is one thing. Based on conjecture or claims with no evidence is another.

Rumors floating on discussion boards with no real evidence to support claims ends up sparking a flame that shouldn't exist. Let's be careful as fans, not to buy into drama and possibly mar someone's reputation without solid evidence about an immoral behavior.

Speculating and spreading false information based on guesses or assumptions, is not going to help our beloved sport. Let's wait and see what the investigations find.

That's the problem with rumors. They are rumors as stated. They're not based on actual fact. Just like Stevie's song, Thunder only happens when it's raining. Well, we don't really know where the thunder is coming from at the moment. You can speculate about rumors all day long, but that's not speculating about the facts or the truth. And I for one will not speculate about any rumors that's being simmered in a pot just waiting for them to come to a boil because it may never happen or be true.

 

[Judy]

It’s very concerning that his allegations were not seriously taken into consideration back then. I mean every coaching situation with young kids just can’t be dismissed like that. Wow.

 

[Twizzler]

Apparently Craig is going to be on Good Morning America tomorrow morning. I hope he gets more support this time around...

 

[Tinami Amori]

When you are a coach (or a teacher, or in a similar position of authority), you have significant power and influence over the person you are coaching. Even if the student is of "adult" age (according to legality wherever they live), there is a power imbalance. A student may "consent" to something when caught in that power dynamic because s/he thinks that saying no would have a negative effect on their career (which often could be very true), or even because s/he thinks that saying no would affect the positive coaching relationship they have had to that point. When that student is out of that imbalanced coach/student relationship - months later, or years, who knows? - they may look back on the relationship and realize that the "consent" they gave was not actual consent because they were being influenced, directly or subconsciously, by the power that the coach figure had over them.

For the record, i am not ref. to rape, coercion, unwanted behavior, but "adult consensual".

First of all, the original subject was not only "a coach after a student" situation. The comment was "if a student is hot for teacher, the teacher should say no anyway". So that's a completely different scenario than "an emotionally coerced student, seduced by teacher".

Also, there seems to be an assumption by so many people that: a) having sex is some how bad, carries more probability of "negative" than "positive".... b) that it will leave a "student" with some irreparable damage mental, emotional, etc...

I don't get it what people are afraid of.... so student and teacher (after working hours) had a drink and ended up in bed, one time, or for weeks to come..... Did somebody loose an arm or a leg if this side of relationship does not work out? If they sleep together once having normal (non violent sex), and the "student" does not like it, was a piece of meat ripped out of him/her, is there a broken knee? What's the harm in trying it, and if you don't like it, then you don't like it.. When you go to a restaurant you never tried before and your dish does not taste as you expected, do you call the police? no.... you just don't go there again, or go, but don't order the same dish...

 

[jenniferlyon]

Apparently Craig is going to be on Good Morning America tomorrow morning. I hope he gets more support this time around...

I hope so. Back then, nobody wanted to talk about it.

 

[Yazmeen]

@Tinami Amori - maybe my story will help you understand the potential power dynamic a bit better.

I started out in medicine in a residency program which didn't work out for me. While I figured my next steps, I spent about 3 years working in a related medical practice, I was in my late 20s. My boss was a doc I worked with in the residency program, about 40 years old. We got along very well until near the end of that 3-year period. The office was buzzing with rumors that he and his wife were having trouble. He suddenly called me into his office and bluntly told me he wanted to have sex with me; at least "once." He wasn't nasty about it, he just brought it up. I was shocked, but held my composure and explained that I didn't feel that was appropriate; I was happily married and he was my boss, etc. He dropped the subject. That seemed to be the end of it.

Except that within a couple of weeks, I was suddenly a "problem" employee; he and his COO told me that some of the clinics I worked in (all inner city, poorer neighborhoods) were saying I was arrogant and difficult to get along with, so he'd have to cut my salary, but not necessarily my hours. Now, that same afternoon I went to one of the "complaining" facilities and just casually inquired as to how I was doing without mentioning anything about what he and the COO said to me. The clinic head told me everything was great, they loved having me there, I was great with the patients.

Since I needed to complete a residency to really succeed in medicine, I had been applying to diagnostic imaging residencies privately to switch fields. Right around that time, I got an acceptance from the main one I wanted. I called them and asked if I could start early, about 3 months ahead of when expected. Absolutely, the earlier the better. I promptly gave two weeks notice to my boss and the COO; I had no written contract stipulating any length of time for continued employment, I frankly could have just walked out. They were predictably furious; how could I do this to them? In a private meeting, the COO started blustering about not paying me if I was "leaving on short notice." I told him about my boss's "request" and pointed out that medical boards frown on both sexual harassment and related retaliation. I got my check in pretty short order. Never saw either of them again.

Now, I don't have absolute proof turning down the sexual request led to this, but really???? I was considered a stellar member of the practice until I told him no. And lying about how the various clinic staffs felt about working with me? It was pretty obvious I was getting payback for not being a compliant little plaything. In his mind, I'm sure this was "adult consensual;" but I didn't consent, and he didn't like that. He was the boss; I was the employee He had the power, I didn't. I was lucky that I had something else in the works before he could fire me. "Consensual" can escalate from pressure to inappropriate power in a heartbeat in working/coaching/teaching situations.

 

[Debbie S]

Followup article by ABC News:

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/delibe...ting-reckoning-sexual-abuse/story?id=53689618

From the article:

One former colleague of Callaghan’s told the Times three skaters told her in 1986 they had either seen or been subject to his sexual advances. Another said two skaters told her they saw him kissing a student in 1991.

In 1986, I think Callaghan was in San Diego? I wonder what the law in CA at the time stipulated about mandatory reporters and reporting of abuse. Because if athletic coaches were included and any of those students were under 18, that coach could be in a lot of trouble (unless there is a statute of limitations). I think in 1991, Callaghan was in Detroit, and we know from the Nassar mess that MI's laws don't require athletic coaches to report, although that law is in the process of being changed.

 

[Debbie S]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Tinami Amori - maybe my story will help you understand the potential power dynamic a bit better.

I am sorry you had this experience. But your story did not help me. I clearly stated "no coercion", "respecting when one says no" and described a situation when "it is the student/employee who is interested in relationship with the teacher/boss" (in reply to a comment that if a student is interested in teacher, the teacher should say no anyway even if interested him/herself). I don't think there should be any rules when 2 consenting adults are MUTUALLY interested in a relationship or sex or something in the middle, an affair for the time being.

 

[Debbie S]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[Debbie S]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[Debbie S]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[overedge]

Followup article by ABC News:

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/delibe...ting-reckoning-sexual-abuse/story?id=53689618

Wow.

 

[RoseRed]

Just on the subject of coaches dating students, I would say that the vast majority of the time it's not okay, but I wouldn't say never. And then sometimes when I wouldn't think it was wrong, I still think it's not necessarily the best idea, for the same reason that partners dating isn't always the best idea.

I hesitate to say coaches and students dating is never okay because I think about someone like Meagan Duhamel. I never saw anything wrong with her relationship with Bruno, even though he is eleven years older than her. I don't know when they started dating, but she was 28 when they got engaged, which is very, very different than a teenage student, or even early twenties. And I also think about Serena Williams, who was rumoured to be dating her coach for a while. But again, she would have been around 30 when that started, if it was true.

Most of the time coaches and students dating is not something that should happen though.

 

[wickedwitch]

Just on the subject of coaches dating students, I would say that the vast majority of the time it's not okay, but I wouldn't say never. And then sometimes when I wouldn't think it was wrong, I still think it's not necessarily the best idea, for the same reason that partners dating isn't always the best idea.

I hesitate to say coaches and students dating is never okay because I think about someone like Meagan Duhamel. I never saw anything wrong with her relationship with Bruno, even though he is eleven years older than her. I don't know when they started dating, but she was 28 when they got engaged, which is very, very different than a teenage student, or even early twenties. And I also think about Serena Williams, who was rumoured to be dating her coach for a while. But again, she would have been around 30 when that started, if it was true.

Most of the time coaches and students dating is not something that should happen though.

I agree. One time isn't necessarily an issue, but having a pattern of doing so is.

I'm wondering if the reason nothing has been done about Morozov is because he is still considered a successful coach. It's "safe" going after Callaghan with no risk of losing a top tier coach.