Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[manhn]

V&M won 2 Olympic golds (I am not going to mention the team event), and performed well enough for a strong argument to be made that they could have won 3. K&P never had a chance in 84, and while many thought they were better than B&B in certain seasons, fewer really thought they were better in 88. Not detracting from their significant achievements, G&P kinda lucked out when the Winter Olympics switched quads. With no change, they would have won in 96, but would they have won in 00?

The biggest obstacle for V&M is they were very rarely ever DOMINANT. It was rarely NID that they would win a major event, except for 2010 and 2017 Worlds. They lost at least one event in every season, except 16-17. And even in that season, they lost the FD portion at Worlds. None of their World winning performances were them at their best.

I think at the very least, they are the best SD ice dance ever. It shows off their greatest skill, which is their versatility and ability to dance to all rhythms.

 

[savchenkoboss]

V&M won 2 Olympic golds (I am not going to mention the team event), and performed well enough for a strong argument to be made that they could have won 3. K&P never had a chance in 84, and while many thought they were better than B&B in certain seasons, fewer really thought they were better in 88. Not detracting from their significant achievements, G&P kinda lucked out when the Winter Olympics switched quads. With no change, they would have won in 96, but would they have won in 00?

The biggest obstacle for V&M is they were very rarely ever DOMINANT. It was rarely NID that they would win a major event, except for 2010 and 2017 Worlds. They lost at least one event in every season, except 16-17. And even in that season, they lost the FD portion at Worlds. None of their World winning performances were them at their best.

I think at the very least, they are the best SD ice dance ever. It shows off their greatest skill, which is their versatility and ability to dance to all rhythms.

I agree with all that. And yes I agree V&M are probably the best ever in the SD part. Even though they did not deserve to win the 2014 Olympics as Davis & White had a much better and more exciting FD, they should have won the SD portion by a point or two even there.

There are many who think K&P were better than B&B in 88 though. Not saying they are right, but still there are a lot of people. One thing about K&P is they probably easily win gold if they reinstate for 94, the same way you can the same about Yamaguchi, but they didnt choose to, so I guess that doesnt matter much, but if you are doing an evaluation of sheer ability it would have been easy for them to do, as they never would have lost to a still young improving Gritschuk & Platov, Usova & Zhulin were on massive decline (and they had never lost to them anyway even if they came close to a couple times), and aged Torvill & Dean ended up a distant 3rd anyway so obviously wouldnt have beaten them either.

G&P's personal relationship was probably too awful by 98 to have ever lasted until 2000. Plus they were on decline and making mistakes in 98 so I doubt them hanging on to win by 2000. The only thing that might have saved them is Krylova & Ovsiannikov going down with back problems, but even then Anissina & Peizerat probably beat them, especialy if Olympics that year are in France like worlds were, and that was the year of their incredible Carmina Burana number which is by far their best routine ever anyway. I think more likely they split up before 2000 and arent even competing, they couldnt stand each other so much by the 98 Olympics they immediately split upon going pro. I guess in theory it is possible/realistic, just seeing the state they were in by the 97-98 season which was only going to get worse given their disdain for each other by then, I doubt it.

 

[Rich101]

IMO, that V/M's medal haul included two medals in the Team Event should not be considered; it is an unfair advantage over those who came before that event existed. Also, I am not sure that medal haul alone is determinative; will V/M lose their GOAT status if P/C stick around long enough to get two OGMs as well as their OSM? I have no idea if V/M will revolutionize the sport to the same extent that T/D did, but I think that needs to be ascertained before crowning V/M.

This is really a bogus comment. New Olympic events are being created all the time. Swimmers and divers and others get huge hauls of medals. There may come a time when a separate medal is given for the short, the long and overall. Who knows? The medal count is not only what distinguishes V/M. More than anything else it is their longevity and versatility. P/C for example are severely hurting their reputation by doing the same free dance variation each year. Not now maybe because that's what's in vogue But unless they expand, history will not be kind.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I think Team medals are equivalent to relay medals in track and swimming. And while those are noted they arent given nearly the same value as individual medals in track or swimming.

If one wants to fully credit Team medals for instance then Bobrova & Soloviev are much greater than the Shibutanis. They are Olympic Gold and Olympic silver medalists vs the Shibutanis who are mere 2 time Olympic bronze medalists. See the problem.

 

[VGThuy]

I think talking about team medals in of itself doesn't do much to augment these types of arguments, but you can look at how each individual skater/team performed in the team event and how they ranked and how many points they contributed to the team's medal.

 

[Bigbird]

Does there have to be only one? I would say they're in a really small exclusive club. The only other members that come to mind are T/D and G/P. But other than that, who else is there really?

 

[Andora]

Does there have to be only one? I would say they're in a really small exclusive club. The only other members that come to mind are T/D and G/P. But other than that, who else is there really?

K&P. And I'd bump G&P off for them, but I admit that is strict personal preference.

 

[savchenkoboss]

G&P to this day remain a polarizing topic when it comes to ice dance. There are probably some who consider them the GOATs, and others who consider them the most overrated team ever, to lots of things in between.

 

[Icetigger]

I think Team medals are equivalent to relay medals in track and swimming. .

Except, not really. An equivalent would really be a team medal across the 100m, 200m, 400m and 110m hurdles; or javelin, shot put, high jump and pole vault. Pairs, ice dance and mens and women singles are four different events. The team event is cooked up so that the U.S, Canada and Russia and a lot of its individual athletes all get medals.

 

[sap5]

V&M won 2 Olympic golds (I am not going to mention the team event), and performed well enough for a strong argument to be made that they could have won 3. K&P never had a chance in 84, and while many thought they were better than B&B in certain seasons, fewer really thought they were better in 88. Not detracting from their significant achievements, G&P kinda lucked out when the Winter Olympics switched quads. With no change, they would have won in 96, but would they have won in 00?

The biggest obstacle for V&M is they were very rarely ever DOMINANT. It was rarely NID that they would win a major event, except for 2010 and 2017 Worlds. They lost at least one event in every season, except 16-17. And even in that season, they lost the FD portion at Worlds. None of their World winning performances were them at their best.

I'm not sure if dominance should be a criterion though. I suppose it depends on your approach to a season. As opposed to singles and pairs, where the major elements are always executed the same way, ice dance elements can change (variations in twizzles, lifts, etc). If "dominance" is the criterion, then those teams that don't change elements (like use the same twizzles for every program, year after year) will naturally be more dominant because they should be able to execute them consistently, at least in comparison to those teams that choose to vary those elements and need time to practice and polish them as the season goes on.

Similarly with program creation -- dominance would favor those teams that essentially have a finished product at the beginning of the season, and emphasize consistent execution, over those teams that start with a rough product and use the season to develop and refine the program with the end goal being Worlds/Olympics.

Which approach is preferable? For me obviously the latter, just because that's what I enjoy seeing. Part of my enjoyment as a viewer is to see how a program changes from event to event. But I know not everyone feels that way.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Personally I think dominance should be a criterion. Should the best team ever be a team who was losing regularly for a period of time to Davis & White in the midst of their primes? Would this have happened to Torvill & Dean or some of the Soviet greats? I believe it is a valid question.

 

[sap5]

Did the judging truly reflect dominance and non-dominance during T/D or the Soviet era? I think this is also a valid question.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Did the judging truly reflect dominance and non-dominance during T/D or the Soviet era? I think this is also a valid question.

Yes that is also a very valid point and question to ask too. The judging is far more open minded and fair now, and that makes dominance a lot harder.

 

[Icetigger]

Yes that is also a very valid point and question to ask too. The judging is far more open minded and fair now, and that makes dominance a lot harder.

However, T/D did dominate...........and that's one's not questionable..... Some of the others more so, but even then it's Soviet versus Soviet- not the third placed non Soviet teams.

 

[manhn]

I think artistry, variety, influence, etc. are important criteria, for sure. But for someone to be GOAT, they should be all of these things *plus* dominant. Is there an ice dance team with a checkmark on everything? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[VGThuy]

I think artistry, variety, influence, etc. are important criteria, for sure. But for someone to be GOAT, they should be all of these things *plus* dominant. Is there an ice dance team with a checkmark on everything? Maybe, maybe not.

I think T/D would be the best fit under that criteria honestly.

 

[Andora]

Personally I think dominance should be a criterion. Should the best team ever be a team who was losing regularly for a period of time to Davis & White in the midst of their primes? Would this have happened to Torvill & Dean or some of the Soviet greats? I believe it is a valid question.

I'm not sure you could say V&M were at their prime from 2010-2014 due to her legs. There was always this sense & rumour that she wasn't 100% healthy. Scott himself had a neck problem at the start of the 2013/2014 season.

If you want to use dominance as a reason to keep V&M from being GOAT Gold medallists, that's fine - but that doesn't mean D&W suddenly should be in GOAT contention.

 

[manhn]

T&D perhaps lack the competitive longevity, compared to other top ice dance teams like G&P, K&P and V&M. Different times, but would they have won in Calgary if they continued?

 

[Icetigger]

T&D perhaps lack the competitive longevity, compared to other top ice dance teams like G&P, K&P and V&M. Different times, but would they have won in Calgary if they continued?

Markwise, B/B got one 6.0 for the free in Calgary. In 87 T/D created the Missing routine which would go on to be used by the Duchesnays in 90. Would T/D have won with Missing as their freedance in 88? I'd say the likelihood is over ninety percent.

B/B got one 6.0 for the OSP in Calgary. T/D got all 6.0s for artistic impression for their last OSP at Worlds. I'd say the likelihood is over 90 percent that T/D would have won this too.

 

[VGThuy]

T&D perhaps lack the competitive longevity, compared to other top ice dance teams like G&P, K&P and V&M. Different times, but would they have won in Calgary if they continued?

It's really hard to say just because hierarchy and waiting your turn was so big in ice dance during those days and I don't know if the judges would have continued to reward T/D if they stayed another four years or if some of them would have started getting antsy and wanted to give B/B their due. However, just based on the skating and assuming T/D keep training rigorously while opening themselves artistically the way they did as pros (obviously not exactly the same because of ISU rules and all that), then yes, in a fair world, they should have continued to win unless B/B would have kept doing FDs like their Carmen as opposed to the FDs they ended up doing. I wonder if T/D staying would have affected the B/B and K/P rivalry in the late 80s. I know on paper it looks like B/B completely dominated K/P but K/P actually were one judge away from winning 1986 Worlds AND beat B/B in the OSP at 1987 Worlds. Who knows what could have happened with another team to mess with the ordinals.

 

[savchenkoboss]

K&P probably would have been anointed as Soviet #1 sooner if T&D stayed. The Soviet fed would figure they had a better shot at beating T&D than B&B did since B&B probably werent technically strong enough. Similar to what their thinking of anointing G&P over U&Z as Russian #1 out of nowhere in 94 when T&D returned, and hence my thread that I very much doubt G&P still beat U&Z for the 94 OGM if T&D had not returned.

 

[VGThuy]

One thing B/B did have over K/P and possibly even T/D was sheer speed and power. Of course, the way they generated that power was to do less intricate and complex steps, turns, and less one foot skating, but still, some times even when I'm getting whiplash from their skating I do admire their speed and the way they just cut across that ice. We all know if there's one thing ice dance judges love, it's speed, speed, and more speed.

 

[Icetigger]

We might have some idea as to what T/D would've done in 88 for their OSP from this........(and maybe some idea as to what P/C might do next season?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMFxoLjFJr0

or a fuller version from worlds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEz1xYVO-aw

 

[Spiralgraph]

At the time, although I liked B/B'S speed across the ice, they were just too exaggerated for my taste. Their over the top expressions made me think that the Russians thought drama and passion could supersede finesse, intricacy of steps and superior skating skills. K/P on the other hand had everything to me: subtlety, passion superb skating that never crossed the line into caricature, which B/B did imo.
I think skating speed is sometimes overrated, especially if it's at the expense of other qualities that I value more.

 

[VGThuy]

At the time, although I liked B/B'S speed across the ice, they were just too exaggerated for my taste. Their over the top expressions made me think that the Russians thought drama and passion could supersede finesse, intricacy of steps and superior skating skills. K/P on the other hand had everything to me: subtlety, passion superb skating that never crossed the line into caricature, which B/B did imo.
I think skating speed is sometimes overrated, especially if it's at the expense of other qualities that I value more.

You are my hero. K/P are the reason why I admire Dubova so much despite all that crap that happened during the early 90s that caused her to lose her status as among one of the top ice dance coaches. I think K/P really were her quintessential team and showed off her skating philosophy the best.

 

[sap5]

I'm not sure you could say V&M were at their prime from 2010-2014 due to her legs. There was always this sense & rumour that she wasn't 100% healthy. Scott himself had a neck problem at the start of the 2013/2014 season.

I do think injuries played a part as well. If lack of dominance were just due to uneven performance, I think it would have been very difficult for them to come back to the top after the break. Judges are usually less forgiving of that type of inconsistency.

 

[gk_891]

It's really hard to say just because hierarchy and waiting your turn was so big in ice dance during those days and I don't know if the judges would have continued to reward T/D if they stayed another four years or if some of them would have started getting antsy and wanted to give B/B their due. However, just based on the skating and assuming T/D keep training rigorously while opening themselves artistically the way they did as pros (obviously not exactly the same because of ISU rules and all that), then yes, in a fair world, they should have continued to win unless B/B would have kept doing FDs like their Carmen as opposed to the FDs they ended up doing. I wonder if T/D staying would have affected the B/B and K/P rivalry in the late 80s. I know on paper it looks like B/B completely dominated K/P but K/P actually were one judge away from winning 1986 Worlds AND beat B/B in the OSP at 1987 Worlds. Who knows what could have happened with another team to mess with the ordinals.

K&P also won the OSP at the 1986 Europeans and Worlds too. They also beat B&B at the 1985 Moscow News and 1985 Soviet Nationals. The rivalry was indeed much closer than many might think.

 

[gk_891]

At the time, although I liked B/B'S speed across the ice, they were just too exaggerated for my taste. Their over the top expressions made me think that the Russians thought drama and passion could supersede finesse, intricacy of steps and superior skating skills. K/P on the other hand had everything to me: subtlety, passion superb skating that never crossed the line into caricature, which B/B did imo.
I think skating speed is sometimes overrated, especially if it's at the expense of other qualities that I value more.

The thing about B&B is that they were probably capable of better when it came to their FDs. Because their compulsories were phenomenal. But when it came to their free dances, instead of good content, they instead showed a ton of heaving and thrashing about, not to mention a ton of facial expressions.

 

[gk_891]

You are my hero. K/P are the reason why I admire Dubova so much despite all that crap that happened during the early 90s that caused her to lose her status as among one of the top ice dance coaches. I think K/P really were her quintessential team and showed off her skating philosophy the best.

Which is why it's a such a shame their relationship soured so badly after 1990. She seemed to have gotten along with them just swimmingly well until then. But then arguing with them over their style, her saying negative things about them to the media, favouring a less talented team like U&Z, etc.

If Dubova had worked with K&P to update their style after 1990, maybe their programs in 1991 and 1992 would've been even better. Because while both Bach Air and Lawrence of Arabia were fantastic, I did have issues with both of them. I thought the amount of angst and passion in Bach Air was overkill and the costumes and makeup for Lawrence of Arabia were flat-out weird and ugly. Both programs also had too many lifts IMO and many of them looked a little laboured.

 

[nuge]

We might have some idea as to what T/D would've done in 88 for their OSP from this........(and maybe some idea as to what P/C might do next season?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMFxoLjFJr0

or a fuller version from worlds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEz1xYVO-aw

Hope to see some sliding moves like this!