2019 Japan Open, October 5 + Carnival on Ice gala

starrynight

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1,433
The best business reason for age rules are to prevent one and done world/Olympic champions who disappear, taking some of their fans with them.
I'm intrigued with the fan situation around Trusova though... in terms of the English language forums, it's at a fever pitch over on Golden Skate already and that's a lot for a skater who has only done 2 senior competitions. I do wonder if we are looking at another Yunabot situation in the making. But that will take time I guess.
 

essence_of_soy

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4,933
I'm intrigued with the fan situation around Trusova though... in terms of the English language forums, it's at a fever pitch over on Golden Skate already and that's a lot for a skater who has only done 2 senior competitions. I do wonder if we are looking at another Yunabot situation in the making. But that will take time I guess.
Alexandra Trusova has been making waves at the junior level for two seasons. Given that she is learns from Team Eteri, Trusova is not an unknown quantity in international skating by any means.

Trusova also made a name for herself at the junior level, becoming the first female to land the quadruple toe loop, two different quadruples, and three different triple - triple combinations, to win the 2018 Junior World Title.

On top of this, she stood on the senior podium (winning silver) along with fellow training partners, Alena Kostornaia (who took bronze) and Anna Shcherbakova (who took gold) at Russian Nationals in December last year.

The three of them beat every other veteran at the event, too.

Many folks and followers have been watching intently to see how she would do once she moved up to the senior level, myself included.
 

caseyedwards

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12,866
Even if she is young or prepubescent or whatever Trusova is doing something never ever been done in ladies ever before and was only done in men’s like in the past 4 years! Lol lol lol! So it’s not like young and prepubescent meant quads galore before!! It’s totally amazing and totally extraordinary and beyond total comprehension
 

kwanatic

Well-Known Member
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2,662
I hear you, @kwanatic. This competition was kind of a microcosm or test case of so many things that I, personally, find troubling and/or disappointing about the current state of ladies skating and judging. It does make you wonder if it’s worth watching. But I agree with @alchemy void that I always enjoy hearing your thoughts, either here or on your blog! 😍
Yeah, I see the way the sport is going and, as a long time fan, it's very disappointing. I appreciate the fact that women's skating is progressing technically and I'm here for it...but it seems to be at the expense of what made it special in the first place. I don't feel as though any other discipline has made that trade off despite advancing the technical side.

And that sucks.

It'd be different if the ones who were delivering the artistic/component side were being rewarded for it in the scoring, but that's hardly ever the case. If they are given an edge from the judges it's barely enough to indicate any actual separation of skill or ability from the next person.

The scoring is all about power politics... It has been a problem for a long time and gets worse and worse each season. It makes me sad/upset for the skaters who are working so hard and not getting the recognition they deserve for the things they improve or do exceptionally well. It's unfair and that sometimes makes the results of competitions very frustrating to stomach for someone invested in the sport.

There are a number of things I still enjoy about skating and, for that reason, I will continue to watch. I'm just nowhere near as invested as I used to be.🙁
 

Kateri

void beast
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3,337
I believe there should be a minimum age. Physical issues aside, I don't know if sending off 12 or 13 year old children to compete with grown adults is exactly reasonable either from a psychological perspective either. It also puts them in a range of quite vulnerable positions too.

If Russia had its way, they would have put 13 year old Trusova on the 2018 Olympic team with all the adults in front of a global audience of millions of people. And also having to navigate the issues of being in the Olympic village and being so much younger than everyone else.

I think it's good that the children should have the experience of finding their feet in juniors first and be able to reach a level of emotional maturity before being put into an adult world and having all the pressures and expectations of senior skating thrown at them. The Olympics is not a junior grand prix event with a handful of people sitting in the stands.

I also think that if age brackets were to go, you'd start seeing a lot more pairs teams with huge age gaps too. One of these tiny little Russian 13 year olds would be exceptionally easy to put up in a quad twist or a throw jump. And I don't know if anyone wants to watch that.

And also, I'd at least like the girls to have some time to develop skating skills and interpretation before winning everything based on rotations in the air.
Why do you keep saying Russia, when we all know the USFSA would do the same with Alysa Liu, and are already hyping her up, even after all the other girls they've driven over the edge with obsessive media scrutiny?
 

essence_of_soy

Well-Known Member
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4,933
Yeah, I see the way the sport is going and, as a long time fan, it's very disappointing. I appreciate the fact that women's skating is progressing technically and I'm here for it...but it seems to be at the expense of what made it special in the first place. I don't feel as though any other discipline has made that trade off despite advancing the technical side.

And that sucks.

It'd be different if the ones who were delivering the artistic/component side were being rewarded for it in the scoring, but that's hardly ever the case. If they are given an edge from the judges it's barely enough to indicate any actual separation of skill or ability from the next person.

The scoring is all about power politics... It has been a problem for a long time and gets worse and worse each season. It makes me sad/upset for the skaters who are working so hard and not getting the recognition they deserve for the things they improve or do exceptionally well. It's unfair and that sometimes makes the results of competitions very frustrating to stomach for someone invested in the sport.

There are a number of things I still enjoy about skating and, for that reason, I will continue to watch. I'm just nowhere near as invested as I used to be.🙁
With the likes of Trusova and Shcherbakova entering the senior international level, I'm almost reminded of Irina Rodnina's total dominance in pairs' skating for more than a decade. Yes, Rodnina and the two partners she skated with were strong and consistent technicians. But it almost drained every event she entered from excitement, and replaced it with dull predictability.

Earlier, it was mentioned that Zagitova was only four points shy of Trusova's free skating score. True. But Alina skated clean, and still couldn't touch Alexandra, who did not. Will Trusova develop into a compelling artist to match her technical fireworks. Only time will tell. Unless she is replaced by the next baby prodigy waiting in the wings.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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59,403
Alexandra Trusova has been making waves at the junior level for two seasons. Given that she is learns from Team Eteri, Trusova is not an unknown quantity in international skating by any means.

Trusova also made a name for herself at the junior level, becoming the first female to land the quadruple toe loop, two different quadruples, and three different triple - triple combinations, to win the 2018 Junior World Title.

On top of this, she stood on the senior podium (winning silver) along with fellow training partners, Alena Kostornaia (who took bronze) and Anna Shcherbakova (who took gold) at Russian Nationals in December last year.

The three of them beat every other veteran at the event, too.

Many folks and followers have been watching intently to see how she would do once she moved up to the senior level, myself included.
Exactly. It's not as if she's a new skater. :lol: She's been setting world records for two years, going on three (she's already set senior world records at only 2 events.).
 

starrynight

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1,433
Why do you keep saying Russia, when we all know the USFSA would do the same with Alysa Liu, when we all know the USFSA would do the same with Alysa Liu, and are already hyping her up, even after all the other girls they've driven over the edge with obsessive media scrutiny?
I totally agree with your point that Liu would have also faced a lot of media pressure that would not be fair on someone so young.

I used Russia as an example because they have had so many juniors for years around which a massive following has been formed (I think some people follow juniors ladies more than seniors just because of them).

Not to mention Russia has the vast majority of entrants in the Junior Grand Prix Final - and always seem to, even in disciplines they are not dominant in at seniors. Russia also has 5 out of 6 of the pairs entries for example. Which demonstrates the effect of having a strong funding and training situation that gives juniors the opportunity to train harder, younger. Things do even out in the long term though in disciplines such as mens, pairs and dance.

USFSA have had one skater who has done like 2 junior international competitions.

I also used Trusova as a specific example, because she most likely would have actually been sent to the 2018 Olympics had it been allowed and this thread is about Trusova and Zagitova after all. I didn't even think of Liu because I actually forgot about her until you mentioned her. I don't believe in over-hyping junior skaters until they've proven themselves as seniors. But even I haven't been able to avoid noticing this crop of Russian juniors - for example the Russian ladies thread on many forums can often solely discuss juniors when I go there looking for information about the current senior skaters.

But yes, my age limit concerns regarding the psychological impact of skating seniors with no age limit would also equally apply to Liu or children from any skating country.

With the likes of Trusova and Shcherbakova entering the senior international level, I'm almost reminded of Irina Rodnina's total dominance in pairs' skating for more than a decade. Yes, Rodnina and the two partners she skated with were strong and consistent technicians. But it almost drained every event she entered from excitement, and replaced it with dull predictability.
I think singles skating throws down enough risk and challenges without that being a potential for the long term. It's not like ice dance - where I suspect something similar to Rodnina is in the process of happening now.
 
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text_skate

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814
Miyahara: The program is all kinds of stunning. Gorgeous choreo and delivery. She should have had high 9s for CH and IN...too much to ask, I know. Idk how this season is going to go for her in terms of results but I will cherish seeing her perform this FS.
This. :love:
(When I watched her FS, I couldn't find the right words. :sneaky:)
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
Earlier, it was mentioned that Zagitova was only four points shy of Trusova's free skating score. True. But Alina skated clean, and still couldn't touch Alexandra, who did not. Will Trusova develop into a compelling artist to match her technical fireworks. Only time will tell. Unless she is replaced by the next baby prodigy waiting in the wings.
It is quite clear that 100% clean Alina can not beat 100% clean Trusova (if she performs at least 3 quads). Alina's highest PCS will not outweigh Sasha's highest TES.

However, Alina did not skate 100% clean at Japan Open, she received lower than usual "levels" on a spin seq and few other elements.
 

Finsta

Well-Known Member
Messages
291
Is it true that Trusova was swearing and complaining about her low scores while her mic was on? 😂. I think this was just to be a fun event. That said, sounds like Alina would’ve win if she skates clean
 

starrynight

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1,433
I just think the interesting thing about ladies is that it’s the only discipline where being a good junior means anything for seniors.

Dance, pairs, men... winning the world junior title has little bearing on seniors because there’s a giant leap forward required to be competitive at senior level.

I wonder why that is?
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
Is it true that Trusova was swearing and complaining about her low scores while her mic was on? 😂. I think this was just to be a fun event. That said, sounds like Alina would’ve win if she skates clean
starting with @ 12:15
When the score was announced she said:
"just few points short of 100 that i wanted... " ("wanted over 100, just a bit short")
"just three points short... " (and holds up 3 fingers)
then something like "in the last one (comp) i did less and got more... don't get it/makes no sense"
@ 13:40 Alina sees her own score, turns to Sasha and says "(you're) yes, in first".
Then they hear that Team Europe is in first, all cheer.
then Sasha says something (one/two words) to Javier, he hugs her.
then she and Alina hug, then they all hug again.
Then Sasha said something (to Alina) with a word "winning", either "it's good we won" or "i can't believe we won".
Then she goes off to a press-conf, which is at the end of the tape, with English translations.

 

Finsta

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Messages
291
Thank you. Other forums are saying she swore. I found it funny. Young and not knowing mic would pick it up. 😂. I bet both girls are shocked at the close score. It makes this season exciting. No clear favorite
 

Colonel Green

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3,319
Particularly on the JGP, I feel like the ladies' jump content is VERY similar to the mens, particularly in the top 12
There were only, I believe, two men’s medalists on the JGP who did not perform a triple Axel (both from Courchevel), whereas only one ladies’ medalist (Alysa Liu) performed that jump. Even expanding the pool to non-medalists just adds Mana Kawabe, who attempted a triple Axel but splatted on it.

Similarly, only two ladies’ medalists attempted a quad; the number of men’s medalists who did so was considerably higher.

There are now some ladies with comparable jump content to the men, but they’re still outliers even among the medalists.
 
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Nikki Lee

Active Member
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212
I just watched Alina. I cannot believe she got 74 PCS for that. If you ask me, she had better skating skills two years ago when she was skating to Don Quixote. I'm sorry, she seems like a sweet girl and I like her as a person, but just, no."


I felt sad, remembering how much emotion and tension Michelle Kwan put into The Feeling Begins. Yes Ms Zagitova has more technical firepower, but has never stirred up any emotion in me.
 

Marco

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14,376
If I were a judge, I would give +1 on each PCS component if a skater holds moves for more than a second, and -1 for those who don't. I mean that ChSq by Zagitova was just offensive. And it almost looks like she no longer knows how to bring her free leg back and stretch when she lands.
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
If I were a judge, I would give +1 on each PCS component if a skater holds moves for more than a second, and -1 for those who don't. I mean that ChSq by Zagitova was just offensive. And it almost looks like she no longer knows how to bring her free leg back and stretch when she lands.
:D because her free leg after landing usually engages immediately in some very complicated moves, much harder than stretching.....:summer:

 
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Finsta

Well-Known Member
Messages
291
starting with @ 12:15
When the score was announced she said:
"just few points short of 100 that i wanted... " ("wanted over 100, just a bit short")
"just three points short... " (and holds up 3 fingers)
then something like "in the last one (comp) i did less and got more... don't get it/makes no sense"
@ 13:40 Alina sees her own score, turns to Sasha and says "(you're) yes, in first".
Then they hear that Team Europe is in first, all cheer.
then Sasha says something (one/two words) to Javier, he hugs her.
then she and Alina hug, then they all hug again.
Then Sasha said something (to Alina) with a word "winning", either "it's good we won" or "i can't believe we won".
Then she goes off to a press-conf, which is at the end of the tape, with English translations.

Is there another video? Her fans are saying this is edited. And she used some vulgar language that was edited out. If they can provide and translate I will post. Her fans say such strong language for young girl. To me it is funny to hear if a skater swearing in the scoring area. 😂😂. I say maybe she is sassy and has desire to win.
 

VenusH.

Active Member
Messages
75
:D because her free leg after landing usually engages immediately in some very complicated moves, much harder than stretching.....:summer:

But sometimes it is difficult for sake of being difficult. There is a moment in there that looks like she was smelling her knee.
 

kwanatic

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2,662
:D because her free leg after landing usually engages immediately in some very complicated moves, much harder than stretching.....:summer:
A sustained movement (e.g. holding a landing position) is quite difficult in its own right. It would be harder (and infinitely more impressive) were some of these skaters to hold the landing edge/extend the free leg for a beat and a half, and then go into all of the transition moves. Holding the landing edge shows complete control and showcases the exiting flow and speed of a jump. Skaters can disguise an unstable/shaky landing or lack of speed by immediately moving to a transition.

That's one of the main problems I have with women's skating nowadays. Quality is often sacrificed for the sake of difficulty and quantity. More is not always better...
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
Is there another video? Her fans are saying this is edited. And she used some vulgar language that was edited out. If they can provide and translate I will post. Her fans say such strong language for young girl. To me it is funny to hear if a skater swearing in the scoring area. 😂😂. I say maybe she is sassy and has desire to win.
:D I'll let "your fans" find "another video", show that's "edited", and provide the translation... ;)

=
In the mean time, something factual. Judges' video monitor with Trusova's jumps in slow motion.
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
But sometimes it is difficult for sake of being difficult. There is a moment in there that looks like she was smelling her knee.
:D to you... because you don't like her. To regular people it looks like she is performing a gymnastic/dance move.... and quite well i must say. One of the most quoted fotos after the JO... :lol:


i feel so sorry for people who can't accept it when not their favorites win... Because the winners have the recorded scores, the money, and the medals... and all that "haters" have is a dreary feeling of not being able to reverse history.. :p

 

SkateFanBerlin

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Messages
638
Yeah, I see the way the sport is going and, as a long time fan, it's very disappointing. I appreciate the fact that women's skating is progressing technically and I'm here for it...but it seems to be at the expense of what made it special in the first place. I don't feel as though any other discipline has made that trade off despite advancing the technical side.

And that sucks.
What's different here is that Trusova is alone in seniors. If she does these jumps no one can touch her. It's just too much base. If here were 4-5 women doing these things (as in the men) then GOE/PCS would make a difference.

I too have missed things these last few years. What it means to hold a position. What control looks like. Choreography that connects element to element in a meaningful way.
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
What's different here is that Trusova is alone in seniors. If she does these jumps no one can touch her. It's just too much base. If here were 4-5 women doing these things (as in the men) then GOE/PCS would make a difference.
But at the same time people are cheering for Kihira learning quad and doing three 3A in her programme, along with Tuktamysheva.

The "worst problems" seem to be pointed out when it is "Eteri's girls who win or heads above the rest"... :D

So what if there are no 4-5 more women who can do it? this means Trusova is SPECIAL! and more capable than the rest. Let's not bring in "mediocracy" argument.... just because others can't do it, it should be hindered.. The sport of high accomplishments is exactly about doing "unusual" and something "others can not".. ;)
 

kwanatic

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2,662
But at the same time people are cheering for Kihira learning quad and doing three 3A in her programme, along with Tuktamysheva.

The "worst problems" seem to be pointed out when it is "Eteri's girls who win or heads above the rest"... :D

So what if there are no 4-5 more women who can do it? this means Trusova is SPECIAL! and more capable than the rest. Let's not bring in "mediocracy" argument.... just because others can't do it, it should be hindered.. The sport of high accomplishments is exactly about doing "unusual" and something "others can not".. ;)

I think Kihira gets less flack for her multiple triple axels and possible addition of a quad due to the fact that the rest of her skating is extremely well-rounded. Not only can she lay down difficult jumps, her spins are lovely, her skating skills are gorgeous, her programs are musical, thoughtful and complete, and she's a performer. It's not all about the axel. She's not a one-trick pony.

Trusova, bless her heart, is a one-trick pony. The only thing she does exceptionally is jump...and that kick-ass cantilever. Props to her for that... Unfortunately, her posture, skating skills, line, musicality, presence, artistry, spins, etc. all leave A LOT to be desired. That's not to say she won't work on those things in the future...but as of now, her untouchable base value is, well, untouchable. She's not an amazing skater--she's a phenomenal jumper and that will be what wins her titles. She won't have the best PCS in any category, she won't get the most GOE for spins or footwork...it's going to be her jumps that carry her.

The fact that someone so under-developed as a complete skater has a great shot at not only winning but really knocking everyone out of contention by a mile is rather disheartening to people who love sport as a whole and not just as a jumping competition. That's not Trusova's fault though and I don't fault her for it. It still sucks though!
 

Finsta

Well-Known Member
Messages
291
:D I'll let "your fans" find "another video", show that's "edited", and provide the translation... ;)

=
In the mean time, something factual. Judges' video monitor with Trusova's jumps in slow motion.
Not my fans—hers. You’re really twisting posts now. Very insane. It’s on other message boards. It might be board Dragging to post which board here, but if it’s posted I’ll post it.
Not sure why you feel the need to make any veiled comments towards me and think you are expert at these girls. If you’re such a fan girl then you’ve already seen the video. 😂😂😂😂.
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
Not my fans—hers. You’re really twisting posts now. Very insane. It’s on other message boards. It might be board Dragging to post which board here, but if it’s posted I’ll post it.
Not sure why you feel the need to make any veiled comments towards me and think you are expert at these girls. If you’re such a fan girl then you’ve already seen the video. 😂😂😂😂.
Don't wiggle around.... Just post it. all it requires a video and a translation... ;) Any one can say "I hear".. "some people are saying". Just post that "other video"... i understand russian, i will tell you honestly what it says...
 

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