2019 Japan Open, October 5 + Carnival on Ice gala

pinky166

#allaboutthevoids #teamtrainwreck
Messages
22,174
Trusova’sa beast! Alina looking good too! Less impressed by the guys but o one was horrible. Congrats to Team Europe!
 

mollymgr

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,711
Carnival On Ice videos from youtube.

Nathan Chen

Rika Kihira

Alexandra Trusova

Alina Zagitova

Shoma Uno

Stephane Lambiel

Nobunari Oda
 

liv

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,974
Ladies figure skating... we're at an interesting time.

You have an absolute master at actual skating, like Satoko, who can weave her steps, movements and listens to her music and skates to it....but has jumps that could really only be classified as adequate.

And then you have Trusova, who basically goes from one end of the ice to the other to do quads and pretty much nothing else in between unless it is an element. I think you could put her music on mute and play your own music and it would be about the same because she doesn't skate to her music at all.

I admire both skills sets. Satoko is a joy to watch, and Trusova is a marvel to watch.

I just wish there was a way for the marks to better sum up what we're seeing because right now, with the arrival of Trusova, technical skills are totally outweighing the other and it's almost impossible to defeat her just because of her technical base line.
 

Finsta

Well-Known Member
Messages
291
Well others could rise up to her level of technical expertise.
maybe. But let’s face it. Most of the girls can’t maintain these jumps after body changes. Let’s see how she does in 2 years. Will she even be a factor.? Sit back and enjoy the show. She may do fine and coast to Olympic gold, she may get injury, sHe may struggle with jumps, pressure,nerves. This competition showed she’s not unbeatable. Judges seem to realize she has jumps but the senior girls will give her more challenge than juniors. Like Anna, judges see they need work.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
59,403
maybe. But let’s face it. Most of the girls can’t maintain these jumps after body changes. Let’s see how she does in 2 years. Will she even be a factor.? Sit back and enjoy the show. She may do fine and coast to Olympic gold, she may get injury, sHe may struggle with jumps, pressure,nerves. This competition showed she’s not unbeatable. Judges seem to realize she has jumps but the senior girls will give her more challenge than juniors. Like Anna, judges see they need work.
Nobody knows what any skater will be doing in two years. Injuries happen to many skaters. It's tiresome to hear the "but what will she be doing X years from now." Who knows? Who cares? Maybe there will be someone who comes along with even harder technical elements. Maybe there won't. But, she has the highest TES base value of any senior skater at this time and she should be rewarded for it. I can't believe anybody is whining about a 15 year old girl doing something no other female skater has ever done. And, in fact doing something most senior male skaters can't do. She deserves the TES she's getting and if she outscores the artistic skaters, that's their problem and not hers. Skaters do what they do best. Some are more into the music. Some aren't. Some can jump. Some can't. Each skater learns to maximize their skills and talent if they want to skate competitively. Otherwise, do shows and make :bribe:
 

thvudragon

Usova's Apprentice
Messages
4,537
I think Zagitova's skating skills have shown alot of improvement. Her carriage and posture are better. She's not breaking at the waist nearly as much or as pronounced. She's still skating the hardest programs out there choreographically. While she has less transitions this season compared to last, it's not like it has dropped to a level below that of the competition. While she may not skate with any authenticity, she's excelling at what she is doing IMO.

While I can see where people might think she should be dinged PCS wise when it comes to Interpretation, and maybe the actual Skating Skills mark should be half a point lower than what her average usually is, her Transitions are incredibly difficult and numerous. I think she should get high marks in TR, PE, and CO for her clean performances. She's a different skater this year compared to last. People keep making the same criticisms, but IMO, she's gotten so much better.

Though, the programs are still garbage. Dani G is kind of the worst combination of untalented, yet self-indulgent.
 

Finsta

Well-Known Member
Messages
291
Nobody knows what any skater will be doing in two years. Injuries happen to many skaters. It's tiresome to hear the "but what will she be doing X years from now." Who knows? Who cares? Maybe there will be someone who comes along with even harder technical elements. Maybe there won't. But, she has the highest TES base value of any senior skater at this time and she should be rewarded for it. I can't believe anybody is whining about a 15 year old girl doing something no other female skater has ever done. And, in fact doing something most senior male skaters can't do. She deserves the TES she's getting and if she outscores the artistic skaters, that's their problem and not hers. Skaters do what they do best. Some are more into the music. Some aren't. Some can jump. Some can't. Each skater learns to maximize their skills and talent if they want to skate competitively. Otherwise, do shows and make :bribe:
Yes. Exactly. So sit back and enjoy the show. Because no telling what will happen. It is sport.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,433
Of course people have a lot of opinions on Trusova - she's the face of the great experiment for the future of ladies skating.

We all know now that a quad can be taught to a talented pre-pubescent girl. There's several of them in juniors that have them. And there's just going to be more from now on.

But the question is whether they can keep them when they grow up.

So we have a few of scenarios here:

1. They can keep them and quads become a staple of ladies skating from here on out;

2. They can keep them, but only for the ladies who naturally have an extremely thin girlish physique; or

3. They can't keep them or at least keep them in the required volume, so ladies skating will be won by a fresh from juniors girl with quads from here on - and by consequence, fresh from juniors skating skills and interpretation.

So of course people are focused on what will happen in the future. We are on the turning point of the future of ladies skating.

And there's every possibility what Trusova is offering now, is a representation of what the the future of the sport is.

I note with interest that Tuktamysheva claims to have a fully rotated quad toe in a harness (without assistance).
 
Last edited:

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
59,403
But, there is no control of the future. I've heard this argument for years. :yawn: What impacts skating is winning. If something gives a skater or a group of skaters a competitive edge, then you can guarantee younger skaters are going to be doing it because they want to win. Their coaches want to win. Their families are shelling out a lot of money and they want to win. Tutbridize and her group are pushing the boundaries and they're winning. Consequently, lots of skaters now are doing 3As and seniors who never needed quads are doing them. It's simple evolutionary principles. And, if people look back at the average age of the Olympic OGM for multiple cycles, it's not the 23 year olds.
 

Finsta

Well-Known Member
Messages
291
Didn't we hear this story about Zagitova before?


I don’t think so since Alina’s senior debut was an Olympic year. If I recall, she was a junior the year prior to the Olympics and Medvedeva was dominating seniors. It’s well documented as such.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,433
I think one's enthusiasm for all this depends on how much they like performing children.

(I find it a bit of a circus act, to be honest).
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,135
I don’t think so since Alina’s senior debut was an Olympic year. If I recall, she was a junior the year prior to the Olympics and Medvedeva was dominating seniors. It’s well documented as such.
All I remember hearing last year when Zagitova was struggling was about how her career is over, the Eteri technique is failing her, she has hit puberty and is now done...
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,433
I think that up until Sambo 70 used delicacy to assist Zagitova through to success at 2019 Worlds, they had a poor track record of using anything other than brute discipline to push athletes who were struggling. Their track record wasn't great. We all knew the stories of Lipnitskaya and Pitkeev. But everyone learns.

As for Zagitova - she was never exceptionally or unsustainably tiny in her first year of seniors. Certainly not on Shcherbakova, Trusova or Lipnitskaya at 15 levels of tiny (who would look startling if you stood them next to a regular girl of that age). Zagitova actually looked like a 15 year old.
 
Last edited:

jlai

Title-less
Messages
12,211
Shouldn't this be in the Russian thread?

Re: This being a competive sport, yes, Rfisher is right; however, in recent years, there is this push to protect children, rightly or wrongly. That's why there is age limit and everything. But if it doesn't keep kids from practicing stuff they shouldn't be practicing, heck, I would say let the 12, 13, 14 year olds competing at all levels, and see what everyone says.

If protecting young bodies is a priority, then yes, the current system is not working anyway. Either raise the age limit to 18 or something or do something else, but I don't know what that is. I do agree that power and speed need to be valued more in the system, and not just revolutions in the air.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,433
To get things back on topic - a good way of managing it is to actually give the programs the PCS they deserve.

Trusova's program was just a selection of jumps and what was in between was in places fairly sloppy. And, cleverly, music was chosen with no notable highlights, so there was nothing that Trusova had to react to or interpret.

And she's too young and inexperienced to have the smouldering presence and performing quality of a Tuktamysheva who can use that to compensate for having programs based mostly on jumps.

There was about 1000 times more program and skating skills in Zagitova's skate. I must say I'm impressed. But I think that's because I like adult skaters - not child skaters - and Zagitova is now grown up, looks confident and hence now has my interest.
 

flyingsit

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,628
The problem is that Trusova’s PCS will increase in every comp as long as she hits the jumps, even for the exact same performance level. Just like what happened with Lipnitskaya in 2014 and Zagitova in 2018.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,433
Just as an aside, if only they could think of another transition for Zagitova to do that wasn't raising her leg in the air. Surely there must be something else. It gets really distracting after being repeated throughout the program so many times.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,135
I think Zagitova's skating skills have shown alot of improvement. Her carriage and posture are better. She's not breaking at the waist nearly as much or as pronounced. She's still skating the hardest programs out there choreographically. While she has less transitions this season compared to last, it's not like it has dropped to a level below that of the competition. While she may not skate with any authenticity, she's excelling at what she is doing IMO.

While I can see where people might think she should be dinged PCS wise when it comes to Interpretation, and maybe the actual Skating Skills mark should be half a point lower than what her average usually is, her Transitions are incredibly difficult and numerous. I think she should get high marks in TR, PE, and CO for her clean performances. She's a different skater this year compared to last. People keep making the same criticisms, but IMO, she's gotten so much better.

Though, the programs are still garbage. Dani G is kind of the worst combination of untalented, yet self-indulgent.
I agree with most of your post, but don't agree about Zagitova's programs being garbage though, I don't think the choreography is amazing, but they are well suited to her and let her breathe a bit... and actually feel the same about most other senior Eteri skaters. Now the juniors' programs (Usacheva's programs especially are a complete WTF for me ) are a different matter, as I think they suck.
 
Last edited:

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,761
Consequently, lots of skaters now are doing 3As
Kihira
Tuktamysheva
Liu
Hosoda

Let me know if I'm forgetting someone who is doing it with credit for full rotation in international competition. There have been a few other tries, but these are the ones that come to mind when I think of the current athletes credited with full rotation. (Hosoda's not in ISU competition so maybe she--and maybe Gulyakova?--should be on another list). None of the athletes listed at the top are Tutberidze skaters. I think the triple axels have come more from Japan where there is a tradition from Ito, Nakano, & Asada. I also think a number of events brought the axel back to the forefront: Tuktamysheva's world title, Kihira's defeating Zagitova at a JGP the year before Zagitova's Olympic title, Kihira landing two in the FS at Japanese Nationals and then following that up with a very successful season last year, Mirai demonstrating that she could climb back onto the international scene and factor at the Olympic level by introducing the axel in two different programs, Tuktamysheva demonstrating that she too could climb back high on the international scene by doing the same.
 
Last edited:

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
59,403
And others are working on them. I expect to see many more juniors attempting them next season. They are looking at Liu and saying, I can do that. Tuk was doing them as a junior, but she and Mishin didn't think they needed them for competition and didn't add them until she missed out on the Sochi Olympics. But, apart from her, the tradition seems to favor the Japanese skaters like the Russians are doing the quads. And, more and more skaters are attempting one or the other and some both. It was ridiculous when they passed the rule the younger skaters couldn't do seniors to protect them from injury. There are novice Russian skaters attempting the harder jumps. Certainly, many will struggle as their bodies change, but they often struggle with all their jumps. Is it too bad for the 20 somethings who aren't likely to learn these jumps at a later age? It's just what it is. If they can master them to stay competitive, good for them. There are minimal opportunities for pro skating in the US and Canada so you either find a way to compete with the younger skaters or move on with your life. Even in Russia and Japan, there are only so many opportunities and a lot of skaters. But, this argument has been around since Asada was 14 and not allowed to compete at the Olympics. It isn't going to go away.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
21,817
Well others could rise up to her level of technical expertise.
Except that technical expertise is about more than just quads and figure skating is composed of two scores. If they eliminate PCS and score on TES only, then only Trusova's quad will matter. But as long as the scores consist of both TES and PCS, then PCS should be scored appropriately according to the criteria.
 

Aerobicidal

ChartReynolds 4eva
Messages
9,338
Kihira
Tuktamysheva
Liu
Hosoda

Let me know if I'm forgetting someone who is doing it with credit for full rotation in international competition.
Young You, who has a really good SP this season! (The less said about the FP the better.)

As far as the general discussion here, I know I'm repeating myself, but I think there are at least two issues. One is about quality of skating/programs. I think Kostornaia has an excellent SP, Trusova essentially doesn't have programs, and there's a lot in-between (and not just from Eteri or Russian skaters). The same goes for what judges should versus do award for GOE and PCS (and so many people on this board know more about this than me that my opinion is pretty worthless, although I do express it--perhaps too often).

The other issue is the fact that more and more of Tutberidze's crop of skaters look miserable and unhealthy, and I've never seen so many examples of delayed puberty (in both men and ladies) in the ten years I've been following skating. Of course, there are many coaches who have been accused (with or without proof) of forcing unhealthy habits on their skaters. And I'm sure I have made comments celebrating skaters without knowing what they were going through behind the scenes. But, what's happening here is not just behind the scenes, and it's hard to separate the worry that skaters are suffering and could be damaged for life with rooting for them to put on pretty costumes and makeup and fling their malnourished bodies into the air.
 
Last edited:

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,135
I just watched Bradie's program, and she has improved her upper body movement significantly IMO. I don't see as much pronounced stiffness anymore.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,761
But, apart from her, the tradition seems to favor the Japanese skaters like the Russians are doing the quads.
I don't think it favors skaters. I think skaters growing up within a certain tradition look up to athletes within that tradition. (And coaches within that tradition value teaching those elements to their athletes). So we see the triple axel highly valued among Japanese skaters and the triple lutz triple toe combination highly valued among all the upcoming Korean skaters. And now, since Mirai, we have seen the young U.S. ladies (Starr, Liu, and Jung) trying the axel. And we're seeing quads from the young Tutberidze skaters.

I also think Trusova & Liu have been watching Nathan. And Liu has been watching Trusova. They're thinking, "Well if one is not enough, I'll do more." And Nathan was watching Boyang and Hanyu. I mean, for sure, there are athletes out there that are just flat-out competitive and prepared to do whatever it takes to win. Most aren't capable of it, but they exist, by golly.

Young You, who has a really good SP this season!
Yes, Young. Thank you. She has started getting credit for the rotation now.
 
Last edited:

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
59,403
I don't think it favors skaters. I think skaters growing up within a certain tradition look up to athletes within that tradition. So we see the triple axel highly valued among Japanese skaters and the triple lutz triple toe combination highly valued among all the upcoming Korean skaters. And now, since Mirai, we have seen the young U.S. ladies (Starr, Liu, and Jung) trying the axel. And we're seeing quads from the young Tutberidze skaters.

I also think Trusova & Liu have been watching Nathan. And Liu has been watching Trusova. They're thinking, "Well if one is not enough, I'll do more." And Nathan was watching Boyang and Hanyu. I mean, for sure, there are athletes out there that are just flat-out competitive and prepared to do whatever it takes to win. Most aren't capable of it, but they exist, by golly.
By favors, I meant what you are saying about tradition. I don't want people yelling that I'm making a cultural stereotype :yikes: I agree about the competitive skater. Liu and Trusova are absolutely the type of skater who will push themselves to be better than their peers, just as Nathan and Hanyu are. Hanyu is the epitome of a competitive skater who even after 2 OGM is still pushing his personal limits. It takes those who are willing to push to start the ball rolling. Same as back when Dick Button pushed the limits in men's skating or Simone Biles is pushing gymnastics. And, others will follow.
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,433
The other issue is the fact that more and more of Tutberidze's crop of skaters look miserable and unhealthy, and I've never seen so many examples of delayed puberty (in both men and ladies) in the ten years I've been following skating.

But, what's happening here is not just behind the scenes, and it's hard to separate the worry that skaters are suffering and could be damaged for life with rooting for them to put on pretty costumes and makeup and flight their malnourished bodies into the air.
That's my feelings precisely. I can't join the cheer leading team of any of this until I get some evidence that I'm not indirectly encouraging unethical and damaging practices.

FSU is pretty moderate for a board. But I've seen some people over on other forums revelling in all of this and boasting about things like no skater over 38kg will ever win a title now. It's all a bit weird at the moment. Performing children always brings some strange characters out of the woodwork.

And I think that's why it has made me happy to see a very confident, grown up looking Zagitova do so well at Japan Open. It was so hard watching everything last season - Eteri yelling at her from behind the boards at practice, Zagitova looking scared before skating. Glad to see that is hopefully all behind her. Just no more interviews about not drinking water, please Alina.
 
Last edited:

Gris

Well-Known Member
Messages
122
And I think that's why it has made me happy to see a very confident, grown up looking Zagitova do so well at Japan Open. It was so hard watching everything last season - Eteri yelling at her from behind the boards at practice, Zagitova looking scared before skating. Glad to see that is hopefully all behind her.
I agree. The best thing about Alina this year is that she looks so relaxed and enjoying herself.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top