2019 Japan Open, October 5 + Carnival on Ice gala

rosewood

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no commentary ver. from Carnival on Ice (gala)
Nathan
Shoma
Daisuke
Nobu
Lambiel
Shimada

Trusova
Zagitova

with commentary ver.
Miyahara (IIRC not posted earlier on this thread)
 

Tinami Amori

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17,914
I agree. The best thing about Alina this year is that she looks so relaxed and enjoying herself.
Both girls - Zagitova and Trusova - made the same, the top amount of money at the event, and pulled Team Europe into first place.

Eteri posted "today it is the Team that won" (and it was posted all over ig).
 

jlai

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It was ridiculous when they passed the rule the younger skaters couldn't do seniors to protect them from injury. There are novice Russian skaters attempting the harder jumps.
Most age divisions are culturally embedded within our psyche. Seriously, it is the same as gender divisions. Why shouldn't Medvedeva compete against Nathan Chen or Patrick Chan? Why shouldn't Serena Williams compete against Nadal or Federer? Would she have won so many titles? Answer: Their bodies are different and that division is embedded in our psyche. Our boxing have weight divisions. Sure we can keep thinking whether these divisions are fair or necessary. But any change of brackets, divisions are long term cultural changes, and the society's tendency to protect children are not going away any time soon.

While we are at it, IJS rule changes are often political as well, and who is to say that if rule changes happen in favor of more powerful skaters, we won't end up with different champions? The rules swing back and forth based on flavor of the day. Sure, the champions are great competitors, but don't forget 1/2 of that is luck of the day, luck of IJS favoring their style of skating. It's not like they are champs SOLEly because they are tougher than all others. That goes for sport rules in diving, tennis, etc. etc.
 

alchemy void

#missionNHK
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Is there any specific reason, now that men’s and women’s programs have the same number of elements and are the same length, that men’s PCS is factored by 2.0 and women’s 1.6? I think women’s should be factored by 2.0 as well.

If PCS was factored by 2.0, I think Zagitova would have been within 3 points of Trusova here. And Kihira and Miyahara closer as well. This doesn’t fix everything, but I feel like the time has come to weight PCS equally with mens. Of course, this doesn’t mean anything if judges can’t judge PCS relatively accurately.
 
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Orm Irian

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365
Is there any specific reason, now that men’s and women’s programs have the same number of elements and are the same length, that men’s PCS is factored by 2.0 and women’s 1.6? I feel like women’s should be factored by 2.0 as well.
It's partly because of the need to balance TES and PCS so that they theoretically contribute equally to the score. A much larger proportion of the men's field, particularly at high levels, attempts 3As and quads than the women's field does, so the men's factoring was set (in both seniors and juniors) to balance out the higher potential BV while the women's was set to balance the BV of a three-triple SP and six-to-seven triple FS.
 

triple_toe

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Maybe I missed this upthread, but what is the second piece of music Satako is skating to, after the Satie?
 

RoseRed

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Maybe I missed this upthread, but what is the second piece of music Satako is skating to, after the Satie?
Satoko is skating to a piano arrangement of Theme of Schindler's List, Prelude in C sharp minor (aka Bells of Moscow by Rachmaninov) and Hatikva (Interlude). No Satie as far as I know. I'm not sure about the order in the program whose pieces come in.
 

muffinplus

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3,135
Satoko is skating to a piano arrangement of Theme of Schindler's List, Prelude in C sharp minor (aka Bells of Moscow by Rachmaninov) and Hatikva (Interlude). No Satie as far as I know. I'm not sure about the order in the program whose pieces come in.
I think she is skating to Satie in her exhibition.. not sure about second piece of music
 

muffinplus

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3,135
Is there any specific reason, now that men’s and women’s programs have the same number of elements and are the same length, that men’s PCS is factored by 2.0 and women’s 1.6? I feel like women’s should be factored by 2.0 as well.

If PCS was factored by 2.0, I think Zagitova would have been within 3 points of Trusova here. And Kihira and Miyahara closer as well. This doesn’t fix much, but I feel like PCS should be weighted equally with mens. Of course, this doesn’t mean anything if judges can’t judge PCS relatively accurately.
I would guess it has to do with the generally higher technical content men do and the fact that ladies quads is new territory... I bet it will be addressed at some point in the near future
 

VenusH.

Active Member
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75
I agree. The best thing about Alina this year is that she looks so relaxed and enjoying herself.
Yeah last year her programs were awful and in addition she always looked she is going either to cry, throw up or both when stepping on ice.


And then the thing about how she was injured but still jumping in galas and training quad flips.

The whole i don't drink no water was just cherry on top of all the wrong.
 

antmanb

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9,051
Is there any specific reason, now that men’s and women’s programs have the same number of elements and are the same length, that men’s PCS is factored by 2.0 and women’s 1.6? I feel like women’s should be factored by 2.0 as well.

If PCS was factored by 2.0, I think Zagitova would have been within 3 points of Trusova here. And Kihira and Miyahara closer as well. This doesn’t fix much, but I feel like PCS should be weighted equally with mens. Of course, this doesn’t mean anything if judges can’t judge PCS relatively accurately.
I think they'll definitely have to address it in the future if the technical content of the ladies keeps moving upwards.

I wonder if they'll add quads to the Ladies SP. Once the current crop of juniors hits seniors there's a distinct advantage to having a 3A over, a quad because you can include it in the SP.
 

Tada

Member
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34
Is there any specific reason, now that men’s and women’s programs have the same number of elements and are the same length, that men’s PCS is factored by 2.0 and women’s 1.6? I feel like women’s should be factored by 2.0 as well.

If PCS was factored by 2.0, I think Zagitova would have been within 3 points of Trusova here. And Kihira and Miyahara closer as well. This doesn’t fix much, but I feel like PCS should be weighted equally with mens. Of course, this doesn’t mean anything if judges can’t judge PCS relatively accurately.
Wow, that’s such a great point. And it is very curious why they haven’t done it yet.😉
 

kwanatic

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2,662
Quick (and late) thoughts on the competition:

Trusova: She's all strength and power packed into a little pint sized frame. Her jumps just explode off the ice. Everything else about her skating is lacking IMO but with all of those quads, she has a good chance of winning it all this year...as much as that will irk me.

Zagitova: Jumps look more powerful and secure than they did last season. I wish someone would work on her posture...it's still ugly. Forever bent at the waist... Those PCS were ridiculously and ludicrously high but, what else is new? Strong start for her.

Kihira: Score seemed low compared to the top two. However, when you remove the inflation from the other two, it's a closer race...as it should have been. The program will need some time to grow but those axels were stunning. Wonder if she'll add in the quad sal at some point?

Miyahara: The program is all kinds of stunning. Gorgeous choreo and delivery. She should have had high 9s for CH and IN...too much to ask, I know. Idk how this season is going to go for her in terms of results but I will cherish seeing her perform this FS.

Tennell: Program is just too vanilla--it's nice but also meh. Bradie needs something that's going to bring some attention to her, make her stand out. Right now she fades into the background. Decent performance though considering she was injured.

Mirai: Impressive to see her go for the content and I'm sure the fans enjoyed seeing her.
 

Tinami Amori

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- Yeah last year her programs were awful and in addition she always looked she is going either to cry, throw up or both when stepping on ice.

- And then the thing about how she was injured but still jumping in galas and training quad flips.

- The whole i don't drink no water was just cherry on top of all the wrong.
What you just posted has very little of "personal opinion", and is mostly untruth/lies and/or an intentional negative twist on the reigning World and Olympic Champion who just had two consecutive clean and nearly perfect performances at the Russian Test Skate and Japan Open.

- Her last year's programmes can not be awful, because with them she won several GP, Challenger and World Championships (and at EC and GPF she won Silver). Judges at 6 major events did not find her programmes awful based on the marks she received. All these judges can not be wrong, and you're "right". You're stating personal negative prejudice.

- She never looked like she was to "cry or throw up". She looked concentrated and serious. You're choosing to see and say "cry or throw up" not out of good intentions.

- Zagitova was not "injured but still jumping in galas and training quad flips".
A) she was never injured in skating last season, she had a burn caused by her grand-mother's home remedy. With that burn she only skated at Russian Nationals. then it healed very quickly.
B) she skated "galas" after she won World Championship, and she was not injured.
C) she never "trained quad flips". it is Medvedeva who said she injured her hip at warm up at the last Worlds, and then claimed she is learning 4S and there were"rumors that she tried it in a show".

- "The whole thing i don't drink water before the event" is a common practice, even by Orser's students, stated herself.


In Russia we call posts like yours "выброс" - intentional mud-slinging against a person one dislikes.
 

VenusH.

Active Member
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75
There is video of Alina doing underrotated messily landed "quad flip" few days after the mess of Russian nationals.

Of course, in hindsight, it feels like a major PR (she also talked about training "quad flip and quad loop" after winning silver on Europeans by virtue of "skating while Russian PCS").

Alina rode her last season on "Olympic champion" PCS, which gotten her European and GPF silver. She was favorite girl to overscore, which now makes her Japan Open PCS meaningless. Yeah, she skated the best in while here, but she gotten major points even when she was rushing on top of music.

Are you saying she is not serious now, since she does not have that panic attack in 1-2-3 look in her eyes anymore?
 

VenusH.

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75
As for Trusova... quads are cool, but I kinda like the cantilever the most about her free skate. It seems almost impossible and inhuman. Must have crazy muscle strenght to do that.

Maybe they should start giving points for such cool elements. I prefer well done cantilever (or spiral) to a wonky quad, to be honest.
 

alchemy void

#missionNHK
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19,750
Quick (and late) thoughts on the competition:
Thanks. Always enjoy reading your thoughts.

Kihira: Score seemed low compared to the top two. However, when you remove the inflation from the other two, it's a closer race...as it should have been. The program will need some time to grow but those axels were stunning. Wonder if she'll add in the quad sal at some point?
Yes, I agree. My biggest qualm with the scoring here was the gap between Zagitova and Kihira.

Tennell: Program is just too vanilla--it's nice but also meh. Bradie needs something that's going to bring some attention to her, make her stand out. Right now she fades into the background.
This. It's a nice program--particularly the last minute-- and I love Cinema Paradiso, but I'd prefer to see this program on someone else. It's like they're trying to force her into the (very dated, at this point) American lady princess role. It faded into the background vs everybody else here. Bradie should be kicking ass and taking names, not credibly trying to fit into a mold she isn't. Sigh.
 
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alchemy void

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19,750
It's partly because of the need to balance TES and PCS so that they theoretically contribute equally to the score. A much larger proportion of the men's field, particularly at high levels, attempts 3As and quads than the women's field does, so the men's factoring was set (in both seniors and juniors) to balance out the higher potential BV
Totally. But that gap is narrowing. And not just here. Particularly on the JGP, I feel like the ladies' jump content is VERY similar to the mens, particularly in the top 12 that the difference in PCS factors is no longer justifiable.

I think they'll definitely have to address it in the future if the technical content of the ladies keeps moving upwards.
 

Orm Irian

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365
Totally. But that gap is narrowing. And not just here. Particularly on the JGP, I feel like the ladies' jump content is VERY similar to the mens, particularly in the top 12 that the difference in PCS factors is no longer justifiable.
I'm fine with it staying as is for now. I think it needs to be calibrated to the average/middle of the field, not the very few at the very top in the very highest levels of competition. If that means a few ultra-high achievers and a few very struggling strugglers get slightly unbalanced scores, that's fairer to me than the majority of scores being out of whack because perish the thought a Hanyu or a Chen gets a handful of points less than they might.
 

kwanatic

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Thanks. Always enjoy reading your thoughts.


This. It's a nice program--particularly the last minute-- and I love Cinema Paradiso, but I'd prefer to see this program on someone else. It's like they're trying to force her into the (very dated, at this point) American lady princess role. It faded into the background vs everybody else here. Bradie should be kicking ass and taking names, not credibly trying to fit into a mold she isn't. Sigh.
Thank you! I want to start my blog up again but, sadly, I seem to be lacking the motivation. I'm just SO over the bias judging and bullsh*t scoring. I'm debating if I'm going to renew my NBCSports Gold package or just and try to watch videos on YouTube...:yawn:

And I agree. Bradie skated pretty well BUT it was a blip next to nearly everything else done at the competition. She's not a particularly exciting, charismatic or magnetic skater. They need to do something that's going to pull people in and make the judges take notice. I liked her SP from last season. It was different, powerful and intense.
When she nailed it, it was fantastic. I hoped to see her go the stronger, powerful, edgier route this season again. Maybe she will in the SP but this FS is not it...
 

seruleane

Member
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There is video of Alina doing underrotated messily landed "quad flip" few days after the mess of Russian nationals.

Of course, in hindsight, it feels like a major PR (she also talked about training "quad flip and quad loop" after winning silver on Europeans by virtue of "skating while Russian PCS").

Alina rode her last season on "Olympic champion" PCS, which gotten her European and GPF silver. She was favorite girl to overscore, which now makes her Japan Open PCS meaningless. Yeah, she skated the best in while here, but she gotten major points even when she was rushing on top of music.

Are you saying she is not serious now, since she does not have that panic attack in 1-2-3 look in her eyes anymore?
VenusH, if you want your criticisms of Zagitova to be taken more seriously, maybe don’t make your posts so clearly derogatory towards her? There are certainly valid things to criticize about her- about any skater in fact- but you’re just trolling...
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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I liked her SP from last season. It was different, powerful and intense.
When she nailed it, it was fantastic. I hoped to see her go the stronger, powerful, edgier route this season again. Maybe she will in the SP but this FS is not it...
I see your point.

IIRC people (and Johnny Weir) last year mentioned they would like Bradie to go down the Warrior, Sorcerer route and not ice princess.

Her SP was perfect. Do we know what her SP music is this season?

124, that is one of the lower international scores she has received I think. And, yes I know she was in a boot last month.

As much as I am over catsuits. As much as I am over "I Put A Spell On You."

I wouldn't mind seeing Bradie in a catsuit, and I wouldn't mind seeing Bradie do "I Put A Spell On You."

High pony PLEASE!!!! :cheer2:
 
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alexikeguchi

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639
IIRC people (and Johnny Weir) last year mentioned they would like Bradie to go down the Warrior, Sorcerer route and not ice princess.

Her SP was perfect. Do we know what her SP music is this season?
Sylvia posted in the US Ladies thread that it's two pieces by a Russian Neoclassical composer. They sound really cool and a much better fit for Bradie than lyrical.
 

starrynight

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It was ridiculous when they passed the rule the younger skaters couldn't do seniors to protect them from injury. There are novice Russian skaters attempting the harder jumps.
I believe there should be a minimum age. Physical issues aside, I don't know if sending off 12 or 13 year old children to compete with grown adults is exactly reasonable either from a psychological perspective either. It also puts them in a range of quite vulnerable positions too.

If Russia had its way, they would have put 13 year old Trusova on the 2018 Olympic team with all the adults in front of a global audience of millions of people. And also having to navigate the issues of being in the Olympic village and being so much younger than everyone else.

I think it's good that the children should have the experience of finding their feet in juniors first and be able to reach a level of emotional maturity before being put into an adult world and having all the pressures and expectations of senior skating thrown at them. The Olympics is not a junior grand prix event with a handful of people sitting in the stands.

I also think that if age brackets were to go, you'd start seeing a lot more pairs teams with huge age gaps too. One of these tiny little Russian 13 year olds would be exceptionally easy to put up in a quad twist or a throw jump. And I don't know if anyone wants to watch that.

And also, I'd at least like the girls to have some time to develop skating skills and interpretation before winning everything based on rotations in the air.
 
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clairecloutier

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Thank you! I want to start my blog up again but, sadly, I seem to be lacking the motivation. I'm just SO over the bias judging and bullsh*t scoring.

I hear you, @kwanatic. This competition was kind of a microcosm or test case of so many things that I, personally, find troubling and/or disappointing about the current state of ladies skating and judging. It does make you wonder if it’s worth watching. But I agree with @alchemy void that I always enjoy hearing your thoughts, either here or on your blog! 😍
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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Fans like different aspects of skating. I prefer the competitive aspect and don't care how old the athlete is. If they out compete others, they out compete them and IMHO shouldn't be held back. Skating is extremely expensive and skaters and families may not want to spend tens of thousands of dollars for 10-16 years to reach the top. It depends on what they want.

I very seldom watch a skate after I know the results. I watch in real time because it's a competition. I don't watch exhibitions and don't go to shows. Others prefer the artistic side of skating. So, watch what you want. Like what you like. Fan's opinions are just that and most are not judges, haven't been through the judges training. I think the judges get it right the majority of the time. A lot of skating is subjective and it's very different watching in real time in a rink than watching a video, especially one filmed by a fan.
 

Coco

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The best business reason for age rules are to prevent one and done world/Olympic champions who disappear, taking some of their fans with them.
 

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