1987 Worlds- was Kadavy robbed?

[joubertelegant]

I was rewatching the 1987 Worlds the other day and was amazed at how beautifully and well Caryn Kadavy skated at this event. And what a complete skater she was even as an amateur when she skated well. I mostly just remembered her pro career and her being an inconsistent underachiever as an amateur. She also had 2 clean triple loops in the long so clearly IMO had more successful technical content than Thomas who had a badly two footed triple loop and 4 triples otherwise (two toes and two salchows, 1 of the salchows was also a bit two footed though), and arguably Witt who had just 1 triple loop but 5 triples total, 1 more than Kadavy. Her marks really should have been higher, and she deserved atleast silver IMO. I think coming only 3rd at Nationals hurt her. That was an amazing ladies event all around though.

 

[joubertelegant]

Here is Kadavy's LP from the event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylUfPI2dfZc

Technical marks way too low particularly in comparision to what Thomas got. Artistic marks too low also, in comparision to Witt she deserved much closer IMO, and certainly higher than Thomas got.

Here is her beautiful SP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOddabzSfiU which was placed behind Trenary who had some shaky landings in only 5th, behind young Ito was who was 3rd, and behind Manley who skated beautiful but with only a triple toe combo in 2nd. Witt skated a junk short but she is Witt and she got through it cleanly so no surprise she was placed 1st I guess.

 

[joubertelegant]

And for comparision here are the long programs of both Witt and Thomas.

Witt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLiJlOMdylg
Thomas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyYStCbrD84

Although both Witt and Thomas skated excellent performances as well, I really disagree with her not atleast beating Thomas for silver atleast when Thomas both had less technical merit and weaker artistry, a much weaker program.

 

[tony]

Had she won the long, she would've won overall regardless of Witt and Thomas' LP placements or whether they were held up in the SP or not.

I think the first two minutes of Kadavy's program are fantastic (2A+3Lo sequence!) but she did single an Axel and double a toe loop so the last half somewhat fizzled. Witt was really on that night and I never really loved Thomas' program, so I could see an argument for 2nd in the LP even with the tiny mistakes/watering down of the content. I think Caryn was definitely the more complete skater, but Thomas had the reigning World Champion status here.

This program was also very 'modern' in comparison to some of the music combinations we saw throughout the 80's and it made sense. I think Michael Weiss ended up using a similar combination of music in 2002.

 

[joubertelegant]

Had she won the long, she would've won overall regardless of Witt and Thomas' LP placements or whether they were held up in the SP or not.

I think the first two minutes of Kadavy's program are fantastic (2A+3Lo sequence!) but she did single an Axel and double a toe loop so the last half somewhat fizzled. Witt was really on that night and I never really loved Thomas' program, so I could see an argument for 2nd in the LP even with the tiny mistakes/watering down of the content. I think Caryn was definitely the more complete skater, but Thomas had the reigning World Champion status here.

This program was also very 'modern' in comparison to some of the music combinations we saw throughout the 80's and it made sense. I think Michael Weiss ended up using a similar combination of music in 2002.

Yeah I believe 2nd (Witt) down to tied for 4th (Kadavy, Manley) were all so close the order between those 4 (including Debi in 3rd) would automatically determine what order those 4 would finish relative to one another. Witt and Thomas were in position to beat Ivanova who was leading just by beating her in the long program, while Kadavy, Manley, and Leistner all needed someone else to beat Ivanova, but nobody expected Ivanova to hold up anyway. Leistner needed help to beat both Ivanova and Witt, but nobody expected her to come through. The main 4 contenders it was basically all down to the LP.

I really think if Manley did her St. Ivel LP she wins the gold easily even with Witt's great skate. I agree with you on the end of Kadavy's program petering out and that hurting her, but she still should have beat Thomas but she completed harder jumps and had a much better program too.

 

[tony]

Placements after the short would've been:

1 Ivanova 3.0
2 Witt 3.4
3 Thomas 4.0
4 Manley 4.4
5 Kadavy 4.4
6 Leistner 5.0

So yeah, with a meltdown from Ivanova more likely than not, any of the four right behind her could've won with a 1st in the LP.

 

[bardtoob]

It is possible that in the LP the judges saw the 1A, 1A-2T, and 3LP-1Lp-2T as imperfect.

 

[Vash01]

I really liked Kadavy's skating, and her 87 worlds LP was wonderful. She won only a bronze, probably because Thomas had more jumps? I don't remember. Witt skated well and probably deserved her win, but I would have placed Caryn higher than Debbie.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I really liked Kadavy's skating, and her 87 worlds LP was wonderful. She won only a bronze, probably because Thomas had more jumps? I don't remember. Witt skated well and probably deserved her win, but I would have placed Caryn higher than Debbie.

Debbie really didnt have more jumps.

Debbie- badly two footed triple loop try, triple salchow, stag-turns-triple salchow with touch down with free foot, split jump-triple toe-double toe, triple toe

Karyn- double-axel triple loop, triple salchow, triple toe-double toe, triple loop

as far as the triples go. I would definitely go with what Karyn did over what Debbie did considering the difficulty of a triple loop. Karyn did two clean and Debbie couldnt even make 1 clean, and both had 4 triples if you even count Debbie's second slightly two footed triple salchow.

 

[Seerek]

Kadavy managed 2, maybe 3 2nd place ordinals over Thomas, but she also had 4th and 5th place ordinals from judges who placed her behind Trenary and Ito (who skated in the prior flight).

In the short, Caryn was placed behind Jill and Midori. I think being neither the defending World champ nor reigning National champ didn't help.

 

[briancoogaert]

Too bad she made mistakes. Her skating was fabulous, so light, pure, very good skating skills. But her mistakes in front of both Witt and Thomas didn't help her, that's normal.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Kadavy managed 2, maybe 3 2nd place ordinals over Thomas, but she also had 4th and 5th place ordinals from judges who placed her behind Trenary and Ito (who skated in the prior flight).

Any judges placing her long program behind Trenary is a joke. For that matter that she placed behind Trenary's short program (which had 2 very poor landings) was a joke.

 

[olympic]

I remember Kadavy popping the axel and doubling a 3T at the end. It would be interesting to see how she would have muddled the final standings if she had completed jumps she was capable of. In her interview w/ TSL in 2016, she said that she was capable of the 3F, but Fassi kept her from putting it out in programs (scratches head). It seems w/ a 3F, a solid 3L that was like a money jump for her, plus great artistry, she would've been a legitimate threat to the top of the podium. I personally thought her 2nd mark was superior to both Thomas and Trenary. Trenary skated like Butyrskaya when she got nervous: Stiff. But, the USFSA seemed to REALLY love Trenary.

Did Thomas make more mistakes than the 2-foot on the 3L? I seem to remember at that time so many years ago that her performance was lauded as a great one.

Witt skated IMO the performance of her life: WSS was always a superior program to that Olympic year Carmen drivel. I think it has been mentioned that Witt also had a slight 2-foot on the 3L(?) Most people were looking at her, not her feet

 

[ohashibiles]

Thomas's only real mistake was the bad two footing of the triple loop. Her performance was a great one, Kadavy's was just better though.

I think what hurt Kadavy was skating before Manley, Thomas, and Witt. The judges had to leave room for all 3, particularly when she was less than absolutely perfect. Then Thomas skating great with only Witt left they had to give her marks atleast that high. If Kadavy skated 2nd last instead I am sure she comes 2nd atleast even with the same mistakes and it probably isnt even close between her and Thomas for 2nd, and probably gets some 1st place ordinals now. The draw, combined with not being close to the favorite, combined with the couple small mistakes, together killed her.

 

[ohashibiles]

I remember Kadavy popping the axel and doubling a 3T at the end. It would be interesting to see how she would have muddled the final standings if she had completed jumps she was capable of. In her interview w/ TSL in 2016, she said that she was capable of the 3F, but Fassi kept her from putting it out in programs (scratches head). It seems w/ a 3F, a solid 3L that was like a money jump for her, plus great artistry, she would've been a legitimate threat to the top of the podium. I personally thought her 2nd mark was superior to both Thomas and Trenary. Trenary skated like Butyrskaya when she got nervous: Stiff. But, the USFSA seemed to REALLY love Trenary.

You are right on Jill, but Trenary wasnt really stiff in her 1987 LP. It was a great skate, and great artistically apart from the cheesy choreography, and bad layback. Still not superior to Witt, Kadavy, or even Thomas or Ito that night though IMO. Especialy as she wasnt perfect, and her spins are by far the weakest of thsoe 5, and her jumps are also the lowest quality (least height, least flow) of those 5, and while she did the triple flip she had other mistakes in her skate.

Witt's triple loop was clean IMO.

Fassi might have kept her from doing the 3F since he felt with the quality of her skating and having 3Loop she should not need it to win if she skated well. He should have known better, and known with lesser rep, USFSA favoring both Thomas, Trenary, and even Chin over her, she was foolish to leave anything out as she would always have to far outperform the others to win. Atleast before she ever won a major title, which sadly never came.

 

[berthesghost]

Gosh you do have a unique talent for making lemons out on lemonade.

She was one in a long line of skaters who give their fans nervous breakdowns. So talented! Such a winner on paper! So unable to ever skate two clean programs in one event!

87 worlds was the highlight of her career, What gave her a pro career and saved her from future "hey whatever happened to that skater who medaled a few times at nats?" threads, what made her fans proud. So why not crap all over it as tainted, not good enough, etc like the difference between bronze and silver would have actually mattered

 

[Spiralgraph]

I remember Kadavy's program very well as I remember watching it back then and I've gotten it from you tube. I don't think she popped the axel at all, she had already done two double axels in her program, one at the beginning in combo with triple loop and another almost midway through her program. If the Zayak rule was already in existence, she couldn't have done another double axel without being penalized.
However, I do think that single axel looks out of place choreographically it distracted from the music IMO.
Her program was great but I kind of agree with berthesghost. Karen could have done all five of her triples and I don't believe she would've landed higher than third. She was behind Thomas and Trenary in the USA pecking order, unfortunately.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

I'm pretty sure the Zayak rule didn't apply to double axels?

I never get sick of watching Katarina's long program from 87 Worlds. She was so sharp and focused--she was just ON that night! It ended up being the pinnacle of her career, performance wise.

 

[bardtoob]

If the Zayak rule was already in existence, she couldn't have done another double axel without being penalized.

The Zayak rule was passed in 1982. However, it only applied to triples until after the 2010s.

 

[olympic]

Witt's triple loop was clean IMO.

OK. I will have to rewatch. After hearing about the 2-foot, I looked at her feet in one of my viewings and it appeared to be so.

 

[Bronxfan]

I love Witt - she deserved the victory that night, but IMHO - that 86-87 short program was the worst of her career. She always had such great shorts, but that one sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[briancoogaert]

Caryn definitely popped the Axel. At 1987 US Nats, she had a 2A/2T at this moment.
https://youtu.be/N4JB8bE6M-E?t=1m27s

 

[Spiralgraph]

Ah I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[olympic]

What was CK's planned jump layout for '87 Worlds?? Does anyone remember?

 

[butyrskafanatic]

What was CK's planned jump layout for '87 Worlds?? Does anyone remember?

It was what she did but a double axel-double toe early instead of the single axel-double toe she did, a triple toe instead of the last double toe, and a double axel instead of the last single axel.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I love Witt - she deserved the victory that night, but IMHO - that 86-87 short program was the worst of her career. She always had such great shorts, but that one sticks out like a sore thumb.

Yeah that she won the short program with that mess shows how much reputation meant in the judging back then. Would never happen today even for the frontrunner.

 

[Red Hot Chili Keegan]

Cincinnati is a pretty safe city, I don't think it was known for it's high crime rate although I don't remember about in 87, I wasn't even born then. So I feel like it's unlikely Kadavy was robbed. If she was, wouldn't there have been a news report? And she should have filed a police report to try and catch the guy. If she was robbed, I hope it wasn't at gun point or anything and I hope she didn't lose too much money. Wow, I can't believe this possibility is just being asked now after all these years.