2022 Four Continents Comes To Rude Euro Land (Relocation to Tallinn)

[AxelAnnie]

Wouldn't it make more sense to let the North American countries participate in Euros? I agree the main reason we won't have "Pan-American Championships" and "Australasian Championships" is because of very few countries in either of those competitions. But if we let North and South American skaters to Euros (and rename it to something else), and let Africa, Asia, and Oceania to 4CCs (to be renamed 3CCs), that would solve the geographical problems, at least.



In the Olympic year though? I mean, just in 2018, they didn't send the A-team for any of the four disciplines. And it was understandable. I doubt if it happened in the States this season, the A-team would go, because again, it's less than a month to go before the Olympics, RIGHT after nationals, and if I'm correct that most of their major competitors won't even be there, it would literally only be useful if someone wants a freebie major title or WS (attractive, surely, but have to measure the expense of training against these benefits).

Wouldn't combining the comps just make it Worlds? TBH I think 4 Continents is just contrived to be something it isn't and won't ever be.

 

[On My Own]

Wouldn't combining the comps just make it Worlds? TBH I think 4 Continents is just contrived to be something it isn't and won't ever be.

How is it "worlds"? Worlds mean skaters from all continents

 

[AxelAnnie]

How is it "worlds"? Worlds mean skaters from all continents

Well it is all the big hitters I think.

 

[Colonel Green]

Well it is all the big hitters I think.

Japan, China and Korea would obviously disagree.

But moving the Americas into Euros (apart from that the Europeans would never go for that; they slammed the door on that in 1948) would also render the Asiatic championship so small that it would just be a sideshow.

 

[On My Own]

Well it is all the big hitters I think.

Well, by this argument, Euros isn't really a competition currently, because outside of P/C and Kevin Aymoz, the only big hitters there are the Russian skaters.

 

[Colonel Green]

Well, by this argument, Euros isn't really a competition currently, because outside of P/C and Kevin Aymoz, the only big hitters there are the Russian skaters.

Italy is also in mix across most disciplines, plus there are so many small feds that can each produce contenders, just not consistently.

 

[On My Own]

Italy is also in mix across most disciplines, plus there are so many small feds that can each produce contenders, just not consistently.

Sure, but by the same argument, we can say that the Asiatic championships have not just China, South Korea, Japan, but also Kazakhstan, and Australia had a JWC Pair recently - this despite all of the countries except Japan being much "younger" than the European (and North American) skating traditions. It's not that far off to compare a Euros to an Asiatic championship.

To be quite honest, as long as we don't get consistent participation from all the major countries at 4CCs, I don't think the kind of favorable judging that is afforded to Russia can really be curbed. And maybe fixing the geographical location part will somewhat help, since the major Asian countries will at least all participate (and it will certainly help the skating in other countries grow, since they'll have more spots and opportunities). Not to mention, sending the American men + ID and the Canadian Pairs + ID will at least calm the Russian inflation down a bit since they'll give them real competition, lol.

 

[Karen-W]

Sure, but by the same argument, we can say that the Asiatic championships have not just China, South Korea, Japan, but also Kazakhstan, and Australia had a JWC Pair recently - this despite all of the countries except Japan being much "younger" than the European (and North American) skating traditions. It's not that far off to compare a Euros to an Asiatic championship.

To be quite honest, as long as we don't get consistent participation from all the major countries at 4CCs, I don't think the kind of favorable judging to that is afforded to Russia can really be curbed. And maybe fixing the geographical location part will somewhat help, since the major Asian countries will at least all participate (and it will certainly help the skating in other countries grow, since they'll have more spots and opportunities). Not to mention, sending the American men + ID and the Canadian Pairs + ID will at least calm the Russian inflation down a bit since they'll give them real competition, lol.

Honestly, do some research before throwing out a bunch of blanket statements which have very little basis in reality.

1) Olympic years are the only ones where there is an issue with participation from the major 4CCs nations and it's not even really limited to just the major 4CCs nations - any other year, you can pick through the 4CCs entrants lists and find most countries' upcoming Worlds' team members in attendance.

2) Check out the flight durations from Australia or Africa to major Asian cities. They are long haul flights and it is ridiculous to lump them in with Asia just because... they're in the eastern hemisphere??? I'm really at a loss as to why it makes any more sense for them to be lumped with Asia than say with all the southern hemisphere ISU members.

3) the skating calendar would have to undergo some major changes to make 4CCs a "must attend" event for top skaters during an Olympic season. As long as the GPF remains the 2nd weekend of December, it is going to be impossible for Japan, Canada or the US to move their Nationals any earlier than they are. 4CCs is scheduled when it is scheduled because that is what works best for those nations.

 

[screech]

I decided to check Wikipedia about the North American championships, and it seems the reasons Canada gave for cancelling their participation aren't that valid anymore.

The competition was discontinued when the Canadian federation abruptly cancelled its participation in the 1973 event, which was to have been held in Rochester, New York. The CFSA cited problems with the judging (which tended to favor the skaters of whichever country had a majority of judges on the panel) and the reluctance of top skaters from both countries to participate in an event immediately before the World Figure Skating Championships.

There's still a competition right before Worlds for them to attend. And while there's still judging favouritism, they could use non-Canadian/US ISU judges for the event.

It also only took place every 2 years. 4CC might work better if it only takes place in alternate (non-Olympic) years, though not sure how that would work with WTT. And also World Standings.

While Mexico seems to only have one skater on the international scene right now, it could work to have something like a maximum of 5 entries from each of Canada and US, as well as any other competitors in the Americas who meet the minimum score requirements.

An Australasia competition could have similar entry requirements if they were to do something as well (maximum number of entries per country, while meeting minimum score requirements).

 

[On My Own]

1) Olympic years are the only ones where there is an issue with participation from the major 4CCs nations and it's not even really limited to just the major 4CCs nations - any other year, you can pick through the 4CCs entrants lists and find most countries' upcoming Worlds' team members in attendance.

OK. But it's still an issue of consistent participation. How is it not? Russia even selects its Olympic team members using European Championships, doesn't it? In that manner, it incentivizes European Championships as a selection. And yet a different big country like US neither uses 4CCs as a selection criteria, nor sends its already determined A-team to participate in it. How can you say this is consistent participation? It's also damaging the reputation of the championship.

2) Check out the flight durations from Australia or Africa to major Asian cities. They are long haul flights and it is ridiculous to lump them in with Asia just because... they're in the eastern hemisphere??? I'm really at a loss as to why it makes any more sense for them to be lumped with Asia than say with all the southern hemisphere ISU members.

I lumped them because... it was an idea. None of the other ideas even brought up African countries' participation. In that manner, it was already a more inclusive idea than the others being presented, and less expensive since it wouldn't need two new competitions to be created, and have more participation in the two restructured competitions to boot. But I am happy for your "research" and "input".

3) the skating calendar would have to undergo some major changes to make 4CCs a "must attend" event for top skaters during an Olympic season. As long as the GPF remains the 2nd weekend of December, it is going to be impossible for Japan, Canada or the US to move their Nationals any earlier than they are. 4CCs is scheduled when it is scheduled because that is what works best for those nations.

Yes, no doubt. And yet Russia, a fixture at the GPF, is somehow able to hold Nationals AND is able to send its skaters to European Championships which happens before 4CCs to boot. Is it because of... geographical location, and not just the skating calendar, the latter of which can be much(xN) more easily be changed?

Honestly, do some research before throwing out a bunch of blanket statements which have very little basis in reality.

Honestly, I've found that posts that begin with comments like this are kind of useless.

 

[Karen-W]

OK. But it's still an issue of consistent participation. How is it not? Russia even selects its Olympic team members using European Championships, doesn't it? In that manner, it incentivizes European Championships as a selection. And yet a different big country like US neither uses 4CCs as a selection criteria, nor sends its already determined A-team to participate in it. How can you say this is consistent participation? It's also damaging the reputation of the championship.

Why do the 4CCs countries need to treat their continental championship the same as Russia treats Europeans? It's also a bit of a sweeping generalization with regard to how Russia determines its Olympic or Worlds spots. Their National Champ is guaranteed one of those spots. And, in some disciplines, the team is pretty clear and there isn't a need to use Euros. At most, Euros might be used to determine the 3rd spot by Russia.

I lumped them because... it was an idea. None of the other ideas even brought up African countries' participation. In that manner, it was already a more inclusive idea than the others being presented, and less expensive since it wouldn't need two new competitions to be created, and have more participation in the two restructured competitions to boot. But I am happy for your "research" and "input".

shrugs Given the TES minimums now in place, the level of participation at 4CCs is going to remain lower than Europeans until some of these smaller federations are able to build up stronger skating programs and adding a third "continental" championship doesn't do anything to help achieve that. It does, though cost the ISU additional prize money that might be better put into their developmental budget. Just some "food for thought."

Yes, no doubt. And yet Russia, a fixture at the GPF, is somehow able to hold Nationals AND is able to send its skaters to European Championships which happens before 4CCs to boot. Is it because of... geographical location, and not just the skating calendar?

Try Christmas. Russia is Orthodox so Christmas falls on January 6th for them. They hold their Nationals in December BEFORE New Year's and Christmas. The US and Canada, being predominantly Protestant and Roman Catholic celebrate Christmas on Dec 25th, so holding Nationals during the last week of December is not possible.

Honestly, I've found that posts that begin with comments like this are kind of useless.

Oh, I'm sure you find comments that demonstrate how uninformed you apparently are of the basics of the ISU calendar as well as the cultural challenges to changing it much to be quite useless.

 

[Karen-W]

South Korea did send 1 Dance team to 2002 4CC, which they hosted.

My mistake! You are correct.

 

[Marco]

Would people give this tired, false narrative a rest? The US sends its A team to 4CCs almost every season.

We are obviously discussing 4CCs in the Olympic year.

 

[Karen-W]

We are obviously discussing 4CCs in the Olympic year.

Except that it's hardly only the US that avoids sending it's top skaters to 4CCs in the Olympic year.

I already provided a list of the 4CCs eligible competitors who finished top 10 at the Olympics in each discipline every year since 4CCs started. It's a pretty healthy list.

Here are the Olympic medalists who ALSO competed in 4CCs the same year:
2006 - Belbin & Agosto
2010 - Mao Asada
2014 - Denis Ten
2018 - Shoma Uno

And here are the 4CCs-eligible Olympic medalists who passed on 4CCs the same year:
2002 - Timothy Goebel, Sarah Hughes, Michelle Kwan, Sale/Pelletier, Shen/Zhao
2006 - Jeffrey Buttle, Shizuka Arakawa, Sasha Cohen, Zhang/Zhang, Shen/Zhao
2010 - Evan Lysacek, Daisuke Takahashi, Kim Yuna, Joannie Rochette, Shen/Zhao, Pang/Tong, Virtue/Moir, Davis/White
2014 - Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Kim Yuna, Davis/White, Virtue/Moir
2018 - Yuzuru Hanyu, Kaetlyn Osmond, Sui/Han, Duhamel/Radford, Virtue/Moir, Shibutani/Shibutani

To further illustrate the point:
2002 - 5 of 5 Olympic medalists skipped 4CCs
2006 - 5 of 6 Olympic medalists skipped 4CCs
2010 - 8 of 9 Olympic medalists skipped 4CCs
2014 - 5 of 6 Olympic medalists skipped 4CCs
2018 - 6 of 7 Olympic medalists skipped 4CCs

Is it because of the travel? If that were the case, then why did the pattern continue in 2018 when 4CCs was in Taipei which is just a short 2.5 hour flight to Pyeongchang?

I don't know what the answer is but what I will say is that the 4CCs nations seem to have figured out what works for them with regards to this championship during an Olympic year. It DOES give their non-Olympic skaters a chance to compete at an ISU championship. For up-and-coming skaters, this is a valuable opportunity to earn WS points and set themselves up for future seasons. For skaters in the twilight of their careers, it gives them one last shot at glory. I highly doubt that those skaters are sad they didn't get to compete against

 

[On My Own]

2010 - Evan Lysacek, Kim Yuna, Joannie Rochette, Virtue/Moir, Davis/White
2014 - Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Kim Yuna, Davis/White, Virtue/Moir
2018 - Yuzuru Hanyu, Kaetlyn Osmond, Sui/Han, Duhamel/Radford, Virtue/Moir, Shibutani/Shibutani

All of these people were either injured or training in the US or Canada before an Asian 4CC...

Is it because of the travel? If that were the case, then why did the pattern continue in 2018 when 4CCs was in Taipei which is just a short 2.5 hour flight to Pyeongchang?

Should they have randomly built themselves a rink each to train in Taiwan?

Or should they all have found an agreement to train in the same place with all their different coaching teams in the Taiwan rink that held 4CCs?

 

[Marco]

Except that it's hardly only the US that avoids sending it's top skaters to 4CCs in the Olympic year.

I didn't say it was just the US or blame them even if it was. I suggested US to host this time because I personally wanted to see them compete one more time before the Olympics.

 

[allezfred]

The US and Canada, being predominantly Protestant and Roman Catholic celebrate Christmas on Dec 25th, so holding Nationals during the last week of December is not possible.

Ummm, didn't US Nationals in 2018 start before the New Year (ie in 2017)?

 

[MsZem]

French and Italian Nationals are regularly held between the GPF and Christmas, so clearly it's doable.

I'm sympathetic to the travel issues involved with 4CC; these would be alleviated if the event were held more frequently in North America, where many skaters train. This includes European skaters, of course, most of whom nonetheless travel to Euros every year.

 

[just tuned in]

Long-haul flights would be less taxing if they were within a few hours time difference. No teknik, but I think it would be interesting to try an Americas, Euros to include Africa, and an Asiatic.

I do understand that there are skaters who train on continents other than those they represent.

 

[gkelly]

Ummm, didn't US Nationals in 2018 start before the New Year (ie in 2017)?

Yes, but that was at a time when US Nationals included Juvenile through Senior competitions. None of the senior events began before January 3.

2018 U.S. Figure Skating Championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

With only Junior and Senior events in the current structure, with the same calendar they could start on Jan. 2 or 3.

 

[allezfred]

Yes, but that was at a time when US Nationals included Juvenile through Senior competitions. None of the senior events began before January 3.

2018 U.S. Figure Skating Championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But it was still US Nationals beginning before the New Year.....

 

[Coco]

@allezfred not for any of the skaters material to this discussion.

 

[allezfred]

@allezfred not for any of the skaters material to this discussion.

But a competition was held with skaters and judges (and possibly fans) on those dates.

 

[gkelly]

But a competition was held with skaters and judges (and possibly fans) on those dates.

But no television coverage. Which is an important financial consideration. Would NBC go for marquee events on New Year's Eve?

 

[allezfred]

But no television coverage. Which is an important financial consideration. Would NBC go for marquee events on New Year's Eve?

That I don't know. Maybe if someone whacked someone else.

 

[Karen-W]

French and Italian Nationals are regularly held between the GPF and Christmas, so clearly it's doable.

I'm sympathetic to the travel issues involved with 4CC; these would be alleviated if the event were held more frequently in North America, where many skaters train. This includes European skaters, of course, most of whom nonetheless travel to Euros every year.

Well, I'm not sure how much more frequently the US should be stepping up and offering to host (especially seeing as we know it originally bid to host the 2022 edition). In the last decade the US has hosted twice - 2012 Colorado Springs & 2019 Anaheim, and also hosted Worlds 2016 in Boston. Canada should have probably stepped up at least once (the last time they hosted was 2009 Vancouver as the OWG test event), though they also did host Worlds 2013 (London) and were supposed to host 2020 Worlds. So, between the US and Canada, that has meant an ISU Championship in North America 5 times in the last decade.

In the same time frame - Japan 2 Worlds, 1 4CCs; China 1 Worlds, 1 4CCs (which has now been cancelled); Korea 3 4CCs; and Taiwan 3 4CCs.

But no television coverage. Which is an important financial consideration. Would NBC go for marquee events on New Year's Eve?

If skating was as much of a draw for counter-programming against football as it used to be, maybe? I don't recall how much of an investment NBC has in the college football bowl game scene - I want to say not much since it's mostly dominated by ESPN, but New Year's Eve and New Year's Day are still traditionally dominated by the bowl games (to the extent that even the NFL concedes to them to an extent) and figure skating certainly isn't enough of a draw for NBC or the USFS to move Nationals to the week between Christmas and New Year's.

Perhaps Canada should be asked to move up their Nationals since they don't have any NFL teams nor do they have college football bowl games during late December.

 

[skategal]

Canada has a hockey problem - teams won’t want to (and sometimes can’t) leave their arenas on short notice.

When figure skating events are held,
hockey teams have their schedules months in advance and have their games
Scheduled for on the road to allow the figure skating to take place.

 

[MsZem]

So, between the US and Canada, that has meant an ISU Championship in North America 5 times in the last decade.

In the same time frame - Japan 2 Worlds, 1 4CCs; China 1 Worlds, 1 4CCs (which has now been cancelled); Korea 3 4CCs; and Taiwan 3 4CCs.

That's an issue when you have a competition with a smaller number of potential host countries. Someone has to be the host, and it has to be a country with the infrastructure to do it, much as I am sure everyone would enjoy 4CC followed by Carnival in Brazil.

While there are more options in Europe, there have been some repeat hosts in the past decade or so: Stockholm (Worlds this year, 2015 Euros) and Moscow (2011 Worlds on short notice, 2018 Euros). Zagreb would have had Euros twice had this year not been cancelled, in addition to hosting in 2008. Italy had two Worlds in less than a decade (2010 and 2018) and France will be hosting next year after a ten-year break.

 

[On My Own]

That's an issue when you have a competition with a smaller number of potential host countries. Someone has to be the host, and it has to be a country with the infrastructure to do it, much as I am sure everyone would enjoy 4CC followed by Carnival in Brazil.

Actually, I was wondering if Uzbekistan would pick it up, when the official bids had been announced. That would still be entirely unexpected and cool (no idea what condition they are in during these times, though).

 

[Karen-W]

That's an issue when you have a competition with a smaller number of potential host countries. Someone has to be the host, and it has to be a country with the infrastructure to do it, much as I am sure everyone would enjoy 4CC followed by Carnival in Brazil.

While there are more options in Europe, there have been some repeat hosts in the past decade or so: Stockholm (Worlds this year, 2015 Euros) and Moscow (2011 Worlds on short notice, 2018 Euros). Zagreb would have had Euros twice had this year not been cancelled, in addition to hosting in 2008. Italy had two Worlds in less than a decade (2010 and 2018) and France will be hosting next year after a ten-year break.

Right, and in a 15 year time span, Helsinki will have hosted 2 Euros (2009 & 2023) as well as 1 Worlds (2017).

Brazil would be pretty awesome for 4CCs but, like you said, it's questionable if they even have the infrastructure to do it. Yes, they have major arenas but do those facilities have ice-making equipment and the ability to convert when there aren't any ice shows or ice hockey teams in the country? Same goes for Mexico - and they've fielded not just singles skaters but, occasionally, ice dance teams at 4CCs.

Actually, I was wondering if Uzbekistan would pick it up, when the official bids had been announced. That would still be entirely unexpected and cool (no idea what condition they are in during these times, though).

Uzbekistan would be very unexpected and cool, agreed. Though, honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing them as well as Kazakhstan get the opportunity to properly organize and host a 4CCs down the road. Maybe 2024 or, even better, 2025. 4CCs seems to have its strongest fields during the pre-Olympic season.