Minimum Total Element Scores (TES) for 2023 ISU Championships

airgelaal

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,749
The problem is that many countries have no alternates. If the skaters start withdrawing from the World Championships (unfortunately, this always happens), then the number of entries will decrease. Is Isu counting on this?
 

skatingguy

decently
Messages
18,693
The problem is that many countries have no alternates. If the skaters start withdrawing from the World Championships (unfortunately, this always happens), then the number of entries will decrease. Is Isu counting on this?
To a point. As long as the entries are at, or above the number for a full free skate I don't think the ISU is going to be too concerned. That's why pairs is the discipline of concern at the moment, and why they've increasing the number of seminars being held.
 

airgelaal

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,749
And it's sad. This turns the WC into the Olympic Games. I'm talking about a limited number of spots
I hope that such a policy will not affect juniors at least.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,799
I'm totally in favor of some kind of minimums. Over the years, there have been some disagreements here on FSU about whether they should be in place or not, but I think the current set-up of getting somewhere between 30-40 singles skaters is good, even though it's going away soon enough. A move by the ISU that I yet again don't think I agree with.

Back in the late 2000s, the rosters were getting so big (50+ at some point, definitely 2009) that it made short programs go on for 8 or 9 hours, which in itself is a big ask for the most passionate of figure skating judges and technical panels IMO. I know it gets close to that number in some junior and novice international events, but I think it's still too much.

Second of all, there were always skaters back in those days that had zero chance of qualifying to the free because of a clear lack of technical ability, but were sent anyways. The arguments on FSU have turned into every country having at least one spot- that means you may have skaters representing smaller countries just to be able to show up and skate. I questioned whether my being able to do some clean doubles at my peak should warrant me to just be able to represent a place like Peru, for example, and I don't think it does. The arguments also turned to 'the skaters need that level of exposure, they need that for their resumes', etc. but I again don't necessarily agree. Almost every event is recorded and available somewhere now- back in those days and especially pre-2004 or so, most events never had any footage that came out and I understand why the skaters in developing countries wanted such experience. They didn't see much high-level skating otherwise!

So you could institute a lower minimum TES that, for example, allows a skater in the women's event to qualify if they can do something like 3T+2T, 3S, 2A, and average level 2 on all other elements, but then it's risking a lot more countries getting entries in, which the ISU doesn't seem to want. [Although with the qualifying rounds coming back, there will be increased entries anyways just in different segments rather than a long short program].

And a note about the qualifying rounds- I'm genuinely curious if the ISU even plans to air them in their entireties when they do start back up. Qualifying was actually part of the overall score from 1999-2006 and we hardly ever saw any coverage from it during those times, and when it returned briefly in 2012, we didn't see anything there either.

I think the TES minimums have really pushed skaters to work to improve not only their jumps, but their overall quality and levels of the rest of the elements. Across the board, even down to the skaters that don't make the free skates, the skating is at a much higher level than it ever was before. Not so much in pairs, which had more competitive fields even 40 years ago, but that time will come back around.
 

Karen-W

It's the off-season and I'm low-key bored.
Messages
37,374
And it's sad. This turns the WC into the Olympic Games. I'm talking about a limited number of spots
I hope that such a policy will not affect juniors at least.
Oh, FFS, just stop. It is in NO WAY like the Olympics, which is limited to 30 singles skaters. 23 dance teams and 19 pairs teams TOTAL, regardless of how many countries have athletes who achieve the TES mins. The number of spots is not limited for Worlds in any way. This is about having a decent level of competition.

Even taking Jackie Wong's suggestion of any woman who can score 58+ in the SP regardless of whether she has a TES of 32+ would only add TWO women if we use the SB list - Jocelyn Hong NZL and Josefin Taljegard SWE.

Likewise, say 66+ is the base level in the SP for the Men... would qualify Davide Lewton Brain MON, Edrian Paul Celestino PHI, Valtter Virtanen FIN, and that's it.

In Pairs, if you had a SP min of, say, 50+ there wouldn't be any additional countries that qualify. And with Ice Dance, say the RD min is 53+ - that would add Azroian/Gruzdev ARM.

I well remember sitting through the days of qualifying rounds with over 2 dozen skaters each and that was before everything was streamed. We heard about how tough it was on the judges and I don't doubt that since we all know how tough it is to sit through a flight of just 40 or 42 skaters. You try that next week when the 47 Junior Women are skating for 6.5 hours - and pretend you're a judge. Then, come back and discuss how unfair and horrible the TES mins are.

Also, we could have twice as many pairs teams this year as we did last year, which was the field most decimated by Covid withdrawals, China not sending any competitors (in any discipline), and the lack of Russian/Belarusian teams.
 

airgelaal

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,749
Oh, FFS, just stop. It is in NO WAY like the Olympics, which is limited to 30 singles skaters. 23 dance teams and 19 pairs teams TOTAL, regardless of how many countries have athletes who achieve the TES mins. The number of spots is not limited for Worlds in any way. This is about having a decent level of competition.
This is not entirely true. Given the right of the ISU to raise the TES minimum at any time, they can always control the number of spots
And let's be honest, very often it's not a matter of quality or difficulty. "Kind" judges at one tournament can help, and strict judges bury all hopes.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,799
This is not entirely true. Given the right of the ISU to raise the TES minimum at any time, they can always control the number of spots
And let's be honest, very often it's not a matter of quality or difficulty. "Kind" judges at one tournament can help, and strict judges bury all hopes.
So what is the answer to this, then? Move the minimums down to get more competitors (some fan-favorites and long-timers like Virtanen) into Worlds? But then I have a very strong suspicion that it turns to that next set of competitors on the bubble, and comments like 'but Tara Prasad! She's just so great!' -- and don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of hers.
 

Karen-W

It's the off-season and I'm low-key bored.
Messages
37,374
This is not entirely true. Given the right of the ISU to raise the TES minimum at any time, they can always control the number of spots
And let's be honest, very often it's not a matter of quality or difficulty. "Kind" judges at one tournament can help, and strict judges bury all hopes.
Then I suppose skaters need to make sure they pick their competitions wisely, if you believe that is the case with most of the senior Bs and Challengers. I'll grant you that point for GPs, JGPs and Euros/4CCs - because those are required to have ISU level judges with more experience and, theoretically, a more critical eye.

But, it's like @Private Citizen said in the Challenge Cup discussion thread over in KnC - if you're attempting to achieve a 32 TES min with a base value of 27 going into the competition, you had better plan on being perfect and your elements getting high GOE, because it's a risky strategy should something go wrong - like getting a L3 on your step sequence instead of a L4 today as we saw with Taljegard.
 

Vagabond

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,665
And it's sad. This turns the WC into the Olympic Games. I'm talking about a limited number of spots
I hope that such a policy will not affect juniors at least.
It's arguably easier for a skater to go to the Olympics than Worlds. The qualifying TES minimums are lower for the Olympics than for Worlds. Plus, the Olymic host gets an automatic spot in each event, even if it would not otherwise have qualified for one.

And there are TES minimums to qualify for World Juniors as well.
 

once_upon

Better off than 2020
Messages
30,760
I maybe misremembering but wasn't there a qualifying A and B day. Then there were short and long programs, if someone qualified? I'm pretty sure I sat through at least two days of qualifying rounds in 2003 Worlds.

It was there I saw Stephane L for the first time and his Chocolat program. Brian J first Matrix or maybe Untouchables and the Chinese guy (name escapes me) with the Star Wars program. Those first qualifying days were exhausting for me and I could do bathroom and food/drink whenever I needed. I cannot imagine judging all those programs for hours.

As much as TES sucks when favorites don't qualify, there is a reason to keep it intact.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,799
I maybe misremembering but wasn't there a qualifying A and B day. Then there were short and long programs, if someone qualified? I'm pretty sure I sat through at least two days of qualifying rounds in 2003 Worlds.

It was there I saw Stephane L for the first time and his Chocolat program. Brian J first Matrix or maybe Untouchables and the Chinese guy (name escapes me) with the Star Wars program. Those first qualifying days were exhausting for me and I could do bathroom and food/drink whenever I needed. I cannot imagine judging all those programs for hours.

As much as TES sucks when favorites don't qualify, there is a reason to keep it intact.
Qualifying was always on the same day, but with different panels of judges for A and B. Still, very long days.

Back in the pre-1999 days, a certain amount of skaters from the previous Worlds (based on their ranking) wouldn't have to do qualifying and would automatically skate in the SP. Then, in 1999, it became 20% of the overall score (in singles) for the rest of 6.0 days-- 15 would go through in each group. If there were less than 30 entrants, there was no QR, which I think happened at least once at Euros. It also stuck around for 2005 and 2006 in the earliest IJS days, where the QR score was 25% of the actual score earned.
 
Last edited:

once_upon

Better off than 2020
Messages
30,760
Qualifying was always on the same day, but with different panels of judges for A and B. Still, very long days.

Back in the pre-1999 days, a certain amount of skaters from the previous Worlds (based on their ranking) wouldn't have to do qualifying and would automatically skate in the SP. Then, in 1999, it became 20% of the overall score (in singles) for the rest of 6.0 days-- 15 would go through in each group. If there were less than 30 entrants, there was no QR, which I think happened at least once at Euros. It also stuck around for 2005 and 2006 in the earliest IJS days, where the QR score was 25% of the actual score earned.
I meant 1 day for women and 1 day for men or was everyone in one day? It's been 23 years or so.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,799
I meant 1 day for women and 1 day for men or was everyone in one day? It's been 23 years or so.
The qualifying round days were definitely separated by discipline. There were 20+ skaters in the groups typically, that's 4 hours a group and ~8 hours a day just for one discipline, but the Worlds schedule also usually had another event, such as the pairs short, on the same day.

QR's typically, but not always, started very very early in the day.
 

once_upon

Better off than 2020
Messages
30,760
Starting early, I definitely remember. That vacation/skating event was a gift from my husband, because I had been working 60 hours a week as we were implementing a huge computer/EMR system. No one I worked with could believe I didn't just sleep non stop Instead I was getting up really, really early to watch skaters.
 

Andrea82

Well-Known Member
Messages
869
Then I suppose skaters need to make sure they pick their competitions wisely, if you believe that is the case with most of the senior Bs and Challengers. I'll grant you that point for GPs, JGPs and Euros/4CCs - because those are required to have ISU level judges with more experience and, theoretically, a more critical eye.
GPs and JGPs can have international level judges. At Senior GP level, this season in Single & Pairs, we ranged from 2 international judges at NHK to 5 at Skate Canada, Sheffield and Espoo.
In Junior GPs, it is common to have 10+ international level judges officiating. For instance, at JGP Riga this season there were 16 international judges vs 13 ISU judges.

However, yes, technical panel must have ISU level qualification in GPs and JGPs. So maybe less generous level 4.

I believe one of the potential advantages of some Senior Bs is that field of play. For instance, I am not sure Kessler would have got some of the +3/+4 GOEs he received yesterday skating last with a clear better quality than the rest of Bellu Memorial field, had he skated in one of the early groups at Europeans or maybe even in the middle group at Challenge Cup (with Sato, Sakamoto, Yamamoto, etc still to skate).
 
Last edited:

airgelaal

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,749
So what is the answer to this, then? Move the minimums down to get more competitors (some fan-favorites and long-timers like Virtanen) into Worlds? But then I have a very strong suspicion that it turns to that next set of competitors on the bubble, and comments like 'but Tara Prasad! She's just so great!' -- and don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of hers.
There must be balance. I checked the statistics. Only 5 dance couples were only able to get one minimum. But there were 28 men in the same situation and 44 women. There shouldn't be such a gap. This means that one of the TES is too high and the other is too low.

And there are TES minimums to qualify for World Juniors as well.
I know. But so far it hasn't been raised.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
37,879
The new quali round scheme for Worlds 2024-5 is unlike the last incarnations of QR's in that not everyone has to skate them, and, as a.result, none of the scores/placements count towards the competition total scores, and there will still be TES minimums, but total TES minimums, not individual program minimums. Plus, in order to qualify for the QR rounds, the skaters have to be in the Top 30 (singles), 16 (Pairs), 20 (Dance) nations on the TES list.

There will be direct entries that don't have to compete, the greater of 24 for singles, 16 for Pairs, and 20 for Dance, or the total number of three- and two- spots earned from prior Worlds. In addition, there are finite limits to the number of skaters in the competition for each discipline, in case all of the restrictions don't accomplish this in the first place.

So the number of the.skaters/teams in the quali rounds will be significantly less than when everyone had to skate them. Some weaker skaters/teams will be along for the ride as their countries'#2 or.#3, but, for the most part, the skaters who get to skip qualis will be the strongest.

All as tony pointed out earlier, this is all to get to the ISU sweet spot of six groups (36/24/30) for each SP/RD.

It's harder to calculate how many skaters this would impact without knowing if they're planning to take current (give or take a couple of points) minimums and add them together -- ex, 34+64=98 for Men -- or if they will raise that. But no matter how they set it, there will be some skaters like Taljegard, who missed the SP minimum by less than a point, but has a significant cushion in her FS score to make up for that, vs. Virtanen, whose combined best is 96.15, who wouldn't make it if the combined total were the two current minimums added together (98).

They could lower the minimums, though, even making them the same.as.Euros/4C's/Olympics, knowing that the other rules will eliminate skaters who've met the minimums, like at the Olympics.

The Top X nations provision add another layer or "Will they make it? suspense to the last few internationals at which skaters/teams can earn minimums, ie, will a skater from country A knock out nation B from the Top X nations.
 

Karen-W

It's the off-season and I'm low-key bored.
Messages
37,374
There must be balance. I checked the statistics. Only 5 dance couples were only able to get one minimum. But there were 28 men in the same situation and 44 women. There shouldn't be such a gap. This means that one of the TES is too high and the other is too low.
Or, the argument could be made that the dance TES mins are too low since that's the only discipline that has significantly more skaters than the 6 warm up groups the ISU seems to be aiming for.
 

Karen-W

It's the off-season and I'm low-key bored.
Messages
37,374
Entries are up and the fields are set at 35 Men (no Carillo), 35 Women (no Zhu or Urushadze), 23 Pairs (no Barquero/Zandron), and 33 Dance (Mazingue/Gaidajenko are entered!). I'm betting the ISU is very pleased ATM with the TES mins and the size of the fields for Worlds.
 

Orm Irian

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,694
can’t she just use some frequent flyer miles for the extra .18 points?
New rule. If you have the TES minimums for one segment, are within one point of them in the other and reached the free skate in the previous season's Worlds, you're granted entry on the grounds that the law is sometimes an ass. If that's too broad for anyone's tastes, we can restrict it further to people with the initials JT. 😆
 

Hindernisse

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,504
I am sorry I don't have the time to research this myself and I would appreciate if anyone here in the know would help me. I understand that Olivia Shilling / Léo Baeten from Belgium have now achieved minimum TES to go to Worlds. Can you please let me know in which competitions did they get RD and FD TESs. Both at the Challenge Cup? Or did they get a least one earlier?
 

Gris

不做奴才做公民
Messages
1,705
I am sorry I don't have the time to research this myself and I would appreciate if anyone here in the know would help me. I understand that Olivia Shilling / Léo Baeten from Belgium have now achieved minimum TES to go to Worlds. Can you please let me know in which competitions did they get RD and FD TESs. Both at the Challenge Cup? Or did they get a least one earlier?

They earned both at Egna Dance Trophy. See here: https://skatingscores.com/bel/dance/olivia_josephine_shilling_leo_baeten/
 

Karen-W

It's the off-season and I'm low-key bored.
Messages
37,374
I am sorry I don't have the time to research this myself and I would appreciate if anyone here in the know would help me. I understand that Olivia Shilling / Léo Baeten from Belgium have now achieved minimum TES to go to Worlds. Can you please let me know in which competitions did they get RD and FD TESs. Both at the Challenge Cup? Or did they get a least one earlier?

Yes, it would have taken so much effort to go to the first page of this thread and scroll down to the links Sylvia provided and click on the Senior Ice Dance one to find out exactly which competitions Shilling/Baeten earned the TES mins. Maybe it would have taken longer than it took for you to type up this post asking others to find the information for you...

ISU's Technical Element Scores (TES) for Senior & Junior Ice Dance on the ISU's Statistics page has been updated following the 2022 Lake Placid Ice Dance International.

Technical Score for the current & previous season
(in accordance with ISU Communication 2370, para. 1.1)

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information