U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[FrozenMom]

Both Smith/Reiss and Pfund/Santillan are confirmed as of today on USFS' Assignments page for Ondrej Nepela Trophy.

 

[clairecloutier]

New article on Digerness/Neudecker:

http://www.twofortheice.com/digerness-neudecker-focused-steady-climb/

 

[clairecloutier]

This article has comments from all 4 U.S. pairs on their performances at U.S. Classic:

U.S. pairs reflect on U.S. Classic performances, look ahead to rest of season
http://figureskatersonline.com/news...ic-performances-look-ahead-to-rest-of-season/

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

This article has comments from all 4 U.S. pairs on their performances at U.S. Classic:

U.S. pairs reflect on U.S. Classic performances, look ahead to rest of season
http://figureskatersonline.com/news...ic-performances-look-ahead-to-rest-of-season/

NICE JOB CLAIRE!!

I like how you casually said "this article....". You mean the article written by You!!!!! LOVE IT Claire!!!

 

[maureenfarone]

Smith/Reiss were in the K&C with Larry Ibarra at Nepela. I was wondering who they moved to when they left Bobby Martin.

 

[Cleo1782]

Smith/Reiss were in the K&C with Larry Ibarra at Nepela. I was wondering who they moved to when they left Bobby Martin.

I believe they left Bobby earlier in the summer and are now training in Colorado with Delilah and team.

 

[pairskatingfan]

Smith/Reiss were in the K&C with Larry Ibarra at Nepela. I was wondering who they moved to when they left Bobby Martin.

How did they do?

 

[nimi]

How did they do?

Not too well... Jump issues... (see protocol)

geoblocked for me but maybe not for you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iektCA7H8Cc

 

[pairskatingfan]

ooh not so good at all :/

At least our other American team looks like they did well. P/S appear to have started poorly, but finished strong. Based on the protocol anyways. Good to see side by side triples.

 

[olympic]

^I just watched the video of P/S: The only visible error was a wild step-out by her on the Throw 3L. They had a negative GOE on the 3twist but the error wasn't egregious to the eye. I'm actually happy for their score. They are skating much better than they did over the Summer.

 

[aftershocks]

I wonder if Zach Sidhu is experiencing troubles again with his back. He had looked so much better in landing his jumps in the debut with Jessica at Skate Detroit. Sorry to see them struggling a bit at ACI. They have nice programs this season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_5gEXWAExs C/S ACI fp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqkG9iXKo7s C/S ACI sp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtQN_3S67rM C/S Skate Detroit fp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TIFLEAAmdg C/S Skate Detroit sp

Mervin & Marissa skated well at ACI and were strong on everything except the sbs jumps. However, it looks like they nearly landed the first attempt in fp with a slight hand down by Marissa, and then Marissa did better the second jumping pass and Mervin fell. In the sp, they both fell on opening jump element. But again, a bit of slight improvement at least in aggressive intent. Maybe if they could spend more time drilling the jumps. It seems to be a mental thing and a confidence and timing issue at this point. They definitely have everything thing else that a team could want, and they should be more highly respected for the strengths of their skating aside from the jumps. Their fp is really lovely and has a lot of depth and power. I hope they can relax and get the jumps together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8lxzQwIZ1g P/S @ ONT fp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x10ihUClXuw S/R @ ONT fp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SamwfL13tk C/T ACI sp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kun9Q4NvP_k C/T ACI fp

Checking back, Merv & Marissa were a bit more confident and stable on jump elements with former partners, but there were still some inconsistencies for both from event to event. Below is only a small sample. Looking closely, they each had some individual issues that were minor and apparently not really addressed. Part of the problem when they joined was their slow competitive start (perhaps differing jump techniques) and Marissa having to beef up her throw jump repertoire. It appears that their minor tech issues became serious snafus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9KkuvIxEjg Castell/Shnapir, U.S. '14 sp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh5sAfOysqw C/S Sochi '14 fp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShxtSDpgp_w Takashi/Tran, '12 Wlds sp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXOEpHyzzQk T/T '12 Wlds fp

 

[nimi]

Checking back, Merv & Marissa were a bit more confident and stable on jump elements with former partners, but there were still some inconsistencies for both from event to event. Below is only a small sample.

I wouldn't say Mervin and Narumi were that consistent in their sbs jumps, either... I'd have to spend some time going through old vids/protocols to back up my claim but that's my impression anyway. Also, I remember an interview with Mervissa (probably Skating Lesson?) where Mervin talked about his partnership with Narumi and IIRC he thought their World bronze was a bit of a fluke considering their tendency to splat at competitions -- btw Narumi hasn't been that successful with her sbs jumps with the 2 partners she's had since, either -- and that one big competition just happened to be the one where they skated clean and several other teams had splats.

ETA: I just went back and checked the protocols and yes, that indeed was the weird year when all of the Russian teams were cursed or something: Not only did Volosozhar/Trankov fall on a frigging death spiral in SP but also Kavaguti/Smirnov struggled with their death spiral AND their lift in SP and lost a whole lift in FP while Bazarova/Larionov lost a whole pair spin in FP (in addition to their customary sbs difficulties) etc. etc., plus Pang/Tong who were 2nd after the SP had a really rough free skate... So yeah, the pairs event @ 2012 Worlds was even weirder than I remembered...

 

[aftershocks]

I wouldn't say Mervin and Narumi were that consistent in their sbs jumps, either... I'd have to spend some time going through old vids/protocols to back up my claim but that's my impression anyway. Also, I remember an interview with Mervissa (probably Skating Lesson?) where Mervin talked about his partnership with Narumi and IIRC he thought their World bronze was a bit of a fluke considering their tendency to splat at competitions -- btw Narumi hasn't been that successful with her sbs jumps with the 2 partners she's had since, either -- and that one big competition just happened to be the one where they skated clean and several other teams had splats. (Wasn't that the year when not only Volosozhar/Trankov but also Kavaguti/Smirnov fell on a death spiral?!)

It's true that everything came together for Narumi/ Mervin at 2012 Worlds, but overall they were still more confident and had less noticeable instability or less pressure or something. By the time they won bronze at Worlds, they had been together for five years. At this point, Merv/Marissa have been together for about 3 years but with only 2 full years competing internationally. I do agree that both C/S and T/T had inconsistencies on their jumps, but it was not to the same extent we see with Merv/ Marissa where we are all cringing every time they go into their sbs jumps. In fact, Merv/Marissa did not start out with such a noticeable complete lack of consistency. It seems that Mervin had the most problems in the beginning, maybe because he was trying to match his timing with Marissa, and rushing his jumps. It's just a problem that began to grow and seemingly escalated due to an increasing loss of confidence.

At Skate Detroit 2015, Merv had an issue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxGkKpb3v90
Not so bad at SC 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LHbr1xKZBs C/T sp
But more issues in fp at same comp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iduyhoshZvk (still not as bad as it became)

So the jump issues slowly crept up on them to a point where they weren't landing them at all, and would even fall in unison. I think it's something that should have been noticed sooner and addressed -- it looks to be a timing issue and trying to jump together and rushing, plus the problems with trying to beef up their jump difficulty and vary throw jump repertoire. All of that combined apparently led to complications and resultant loss of confidence, and more problems that began to infect them every time out. Last year at Skate America, M&M seemed to have solved their jump problems. They started out with great energy in the sp and landed their jumps and an excellent 3-twist and a gorgeous throw, but then late in the program botched a lift (a fluke that had their confidence crumbling). They were not good in the fp and it was a bad start to the season, after starting out so strong in the sp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RnnlfyD3-s

 

[pairskatingfan]

So, over the last two weeks we have had all of USFS' top teams compete internationally. SBS jumps are clearly a pressing issue... Here is a breakdown of cleanly landed triples that we saw from the 9 teams we saw over two weekends at Lombardia, SLC, ONT, and ACI:

Knierims: 0
Liu/Johnson Did a 3s no combo, but stayed on their feet: 1
Denney/ Frazier: 0
Stellato/ Bartholomay: 0
Cain/Leduc: 3F in short was called <, 0
Castelli/ Tran Did a 3t+1t combo: 1
Calalang/ Sidhu: 0
Pfund/ Santillan did 3S in SP/ FS, 3t+1t in FS: 3
Smith/ Reiss: 0

I thought the US teams were getting better at jumps It seems not so. Perhaps when they do these pair camps they need to be spending much more time with jump technicians. Double axels aren't gonna cut it internationally, and neither will fallen triples. Some of these teams did a great job despite their jumping errors, but we need more and better quality triples out of our teams, it is holding back US pairs.

 

[olympic]

*SNARK* I think judges should give US pairs a choice: An automatic 3 point deduction for SBS jumps and they can just skate thru the element, or they can attempt the element and see if the risk pays off *SNARK OFF*

 

[Cleo1782]

So, over the last two weeks we have had all of USFS' top teams compete internationally. SBS jumps are clearly a pressing issue... Here is a breakdown of cleanly landed triples that we saw from the 9 teams we saw over two weekends at Lombardia, SLC, ONT, and ACI:

Knierims: 0
Liu/Johnson Did a 3s no combo, but stayed on their feet: 1
Denney/ Frazier: 0
Stellato/ Bartholomay: 0
Cain/Leduc: 3F in short was called <, 0
Castelli/ Tran Did a 3t+1t combo: 1
Calalang/ Sidhu: 0
Pfund/ Santillan did 3S in SP/ FS, 3t+1t in FS: 3
Smith/ Reiss: 0

I thought the US teams were getting better at jumps It seems not so. Perhaps when they do these pair camps they need to be spending much more time with jump technicians. Double axels aren't gonna cut it internationally, and neither will fallen triples. Some of these teams did a great job despite their jumping errors, but we need more and better quality triples out of our teams, it is holding back US pairs.

Not to be picky but S/B landed 3toes just fine in the short at US Classic. But I get you point....

 

[wickedwitch]

Not to be picky but S/B landed 3toes just fine in the short at US Classic. But I get you point....

I assume they were going with GOEs of 0 or better, which S/B did not get. So according to the judges, they were not "just fine."

 

[Cleo1782]

I assume they were going with GOEs of 0 or better, which S/B did not get. So according to the judges, they were not "just fine."

I would imagine C/T and C/L did not get 0 or positive GOE's for their jumps. S/B were off in timing, but there was no error on the landing or rotation which was in issue for 3 teams (P/S, C/T, and C/L). The sbs problem remains the same. It's no big deal, I was just giving S/B credit for what they did, which was a sbs jump landed at least as well as some of those mentioned by the original poster.

 

[jdonavan]

I assume they were going with GOEs of 0 or better, which S/B did not get. So according to the judges, they were not "just fine."

They landed the jumps in the short. The original poster simply said there were no jumps landed by this team, it did not specify GOE as a factor. It's early in the season, and quite a few of these teams have competed already five or six times in the summer landing jumps successfully. Unfortunately if we look at the US singles jumping record this season so far, the report card won't be glowing either. I'm sure things will improve in the next few weeks, or maybe it won't... which should give everyone a lot more to write about!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

So, over the last two weeks we have had all of USFS' top teams compete internationally. SBS jumps are clearly a pressing issue... Here is a breakdown of cleanly landed triples that we saw from the 9 teams we saw over two weekends at Lombardia, SLC, ONT, and ACI:

Knierims: 0
Liu/Johnson Did a 3s no combo, but stayed on their feet: 1
Denney/ Frazier: 0
Stellato/ Bartholomay: 0
Cain/Leduc: 3F in short was called <, 0
Castelli/ Tran Did a 3t+1t combo: 1
Calalang/ Sidhu: 0
Pfund/ Santillan did 3S in SP/ FS, 3t+1t in FS: 3
Smith/ Reiss: 0

I thought the US teams were getting better at jumps It seems not so. Perhaps when they do these pair camps they need to be spending much more time with jump technicians. Double axels aren't gonna cut it internationally, and neither will fallen triples. Some of these teams did a great job despite their jumping errors, but we need more and better quality triples out of our teams, it is holding back US pairs.

LOL, I know it frustrates me. You only have to jump ONE dang time (SP) so why can't they jump. In free just 2 passes why is it such an ONGOING problem.

Last season people kept raving how Cain being a singles skater will be the team where jumps aren't an issue. Her jumps ARE the issue. LOL

How would LeDuc and Alexa do skating together? LOL Sorry Chris loves you but your jumps are at 15%.

 

[AxelAnnie]

LOL, I know it frustrates me. You only have to jump ONE dang time (SP) so why can't they jump. In free just 2 passes why is it such an ONGOING problem.

Last season people kept raving how Cain being a singles skater will be the team where jumps aren't an issue. Her jumps ARE the issue. LOL

How would LeDuc and Alexa do skating together? LOL Sorry Chris loves you but your jumps are at 15%.

Why don't they jump successfully? Easy.....they have been able to get by without it. How hard can it be to train two jumps? Very, I am sure. But they can no longer win that way. Skating is passing US pairs right by.

 

[AxelAnnie]

*SNARK* I think judges should give US pairs a choice: An automatic 3 point deduction for SBS jumps and they can just skate thru the element, or they can attempt the element and see if the risk pays off *SNARK OFF*

Couldn't agree more. And I would add...........0 points for a jump that is not completed. They will never improve until it gets too painful to keep pretending on the jumps.

 

[pairskatingfan]

Not to be picky but S/B landed 3toes just fine in the short at US Classic. But I get you point....

You’re right. I missed that somehow. Either way, we’re talking 6 landed triples (3 of which had errors, but no fall) out of 27 possible opportunities, and half of them came from one team. A 22% success rate from our top teams in terms of jumps is not what we need. You take out Pfund/Santillan and it drops to 12%. Not good. Maybe I’m just freaking out pre-olympics, but our teams have a lot of work to do.

 

[Jojo13]

You’re right. I missed that somehow. Either way, we’re talking 6 landed triples (3 of which had errors, but no fall) out of 27 possible opportunities, and half of them came from one team. A 22% success rate from our top teams in terms of jumps is not what we need. You take out Pfund/Santillan and it drops to 12%. Not good. Maybe I’m just freaking out pre-olympics, but our teams have a lot of work to do.

You are not freaking out. We as a country are way behind when it comes to the pairs discipline. None of our teams will be competitive. Not even Alexa and Chris.

And it just isn't with our senior teams. Last week at the JGP Audrey and Misha racked up 4 deductions in their free skate. This is the same team that scored a 101 in their free skate at Skate Detroit. Their performance may have cost them a second Junior Grand Prix assignment.

 

[Jojo13]

Smith/Reiss were in the K&C with Larry Ibarra at Nepela. I was wondering who they moved to when they left Bobby Martin.

What is going on with Smith/Reiss? Their performance in competition continues to get worse each time they go out there. They looked so promising in Minnesota but have not proven themselves since

 

[SamuraiK]

So FRA did give their 2nd pairs spot away...

https://mobile.twitter.com/europeonice/status/913026796614012928

 

[feraina]

It's a shame the US cannot use it. Or even compete for it.

 

[olympic]

^This is an example of why the qualification rules for the following season need to be changed.

ETA - Not just because it effects US pairs this season, but I'm thinking the JPN ladies deserve a 3rd spot despite how they performed at one event (2017 Worlds). There are plenty of examples. I think it's fine to cap the no. of entries at 3, but why not give 'second life' to those countries that qualified only 1 or 2 individuals or teams by allowing them to pick up an extra spot at Nebelhorn. Or change the manner in which individuals or teams qualify.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

It's a shame the US cannot use it. Or even compete for it.

Why, the quality of US pairs has been abysmal, why should they get the spot when the lost out based on the rules, nothing so far this year or last has shown that thei performance was a fluke. I feel the same way as Russian ice dance third spot, they don’t deserve it, let other teams get an opportunity to qualify a team.

 

[VGThuy]

Why, the quality of US pairs has been abysmal, why should they get the spot when the lost out based on the rules, nothing so far this year or last has shown that thei performance was a fluke. I feel the same way as Russian ice dance third spot, they don’t deserve it, let other teams get an opportunity to qualify a team.

Because like it or not the US only lost its second spot due to a quota issue that is no longer an issue. Despite the fact that it is no longer an issue, it still lost out on that spot. For many it's not about the fact that this is revolving around the U.S., but about how the rule being faulty. Even if the U.S. rightfully won't be able to argue to get a second spot because the rules are written that way, I hope this gets addressed for the next Olympics in case this happens to another federation.