The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

[jägerbomb]

People are unhinged.

If LaLa had skated clean at SCI and not made mistakes they’d have finished second and made GPF. But they didn’t, and thus opened the door for R/A and Z/K.

This 100%.

 

[tony]

As I speculated, GPF tech panel is Kozubek, Higashino, and Yang.

ISU Grand Prix Final 2025 - Ice Dance - Rhythm Dance

www.isuresults.com

 

[Andrea82]

The panel of judges for Gran Prix Final will be

(1st priority: ISU members with a Senior finalist)
USA
France
Great Britain
Canada
Lithuania

(2nd priority: ISU members with a Junior finalist)
Ukraine (because of Pidgaina/Koval qualified for Junior final)

(3rd priority: ISU members organizing Senior GP events)
Finland
Japan
China

Ukraine and Finland absent.
Replaced by Kazakhstan (the judge present for Shaidorov has double qualification) and Hungary (the judge present for Pavlova/Sviatchenko has double qualification).
Referee is Rolf Pipoh from Germany.

 

[Andrea82]

Panels at Golden Spin
Janet Coton (GBR), Tomas Kika (Slovakia) and Pia Gustafsson (Finland)
Judges from Germany, Italy, USA, France, Cyprus, Czechia and Monaco.

 

[Bigbird]

As I speculated, GPF tech panel is Kozubek, Higashino, and Yang.

ISU Grand Prix Final 2025 - Ice Dance - Rhythm Dance

www.isuresults.com

Is this TP giving neutral, like Switzerland?

 

[Ice_dance_fan]

Is this TP giving neutral, like Switzerland?

No. IAM training Corea ice dance team. IAM sister school in Japan training best Japan ice dance team.

 

[Karen-W]

No. IAM training Corea ice dance team. IAM sister school in Japan training best Japan ice dance team.

LOL. Credit for not letting the conspiracy theories go.

 

[Bigbird]

Kudos to Maddie and Evan. I am not normally a Bock fan, but they upped the dynamism and polished their TES and created two worthy and engaging programs at the GPF. Kudos also to Fear and Gibson for their podium placement. It was a valiant effort though by FB/C. I wonder if he now understands how good he had it with Gabby and if he will explore other styles outside of his safe zone. Time will out. Outta here!

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Piper getting a little spicy on social media: https://imgur.com/a/uZQG39C

 

[angi]

Piper getting a little spicy on social media: https://imgur.com/a/uZQG39C

Carol Lane has been retweeting a lot of posts saying G/P were robbed and blaming IAM of manipulation and such. It's safe to say that skaters and coaches are so done that they are holding back much less than before.

 

[Wyliefan]

I would have given it to G/P over F/G today, much as I love the Brits' program. But I would advise Piper and team to watch it. Complaining once made sense, when the scores went crazy and others were complaining too. Complaining multiple times can get you a bad reputation.

 

[AquaLady]

Ice dance is truly at the lowest point of low. Constant controversy, questionable results, pathetic rules, everything is an absolute mess! It’s unfortunate to see a beautiful sport falling apart. SIGN THE PETITION for a change!

Sign the Petition

DIVERSIFY THEMES AND IMPROVE CREDIBILITY IN ICE DANCE

www.change.org

 

[VGThuy]

I would have given it to G/P over F/G today, much as I love the Brits' program. But I would advise Piper and team to watch it. Complaining once made sense, when the scores went crazy and others were complaining too. Complaining multiple times can get you a bad reputation.

They’ve been a team who have probably felt chronically underscored for about 10 years, so they had a lot of years to gather data and see the pattern, especially as they’re close to the sport and can feel what the vibe is. From their perspective, they probably see the writing on the wall and think their results can’t really get any worse than they are now. Like maybe they’ll be dumped to 6th-8th as opposed to placing 4th or 5th.

 

[Lanie]

Not just re: IAM and maybe I'm naive despite watching skating for most of my life now how could/would IAM as a school manipulate a whole judging panel? I think G&P have good grievances, as most of the dancers do, about the lack of the pattern, about the inconsistent judging and just not liking the direction it's going, but I don't think it's some 'only let IAM on the podium' thing. I think Piper and Paul should have been over Lilah and Lewis 100%.

I think dance 100% needs the pattern back in the RD. And no stupidity about decades themes or 120bpm so everyone seems like they're skating through feckin molasses. I want dance back in ice dance. Dancers I know would agree with this.

 

[her grace]

The state of senior ice dance is dire.

Watching the JGPF and GPF back-to-back, you really get the sense that the judging of the Seniors has been manipulated into allowing weak technique to be rewarded and teams to stay forever. I am going to use teams as examples, but note that I am blaming the scoring system/calling/judging as it's not the skaters' faults.

Top senior skaters are taking almost no risk in their one foot turns or step sequences. Compare those to the juniors and it is night and day. Juniors are skating full out, using their deep edges and riding the turns to the edge of disaster. Seniors look like they are tiptoeing through the turns (Chock/Bates, Gilles/Poirier) or skimming across the surface with shallow edges (Reed/A). Then they are rewarded with level 2s and 3s. Perhaps worthy if their turns are squeaky clean, but why are they getting GOE for this? I expected FB/C to shake that up a bit, but while they are using deeper edges, they aren't moving much faster than anyone else. Z/K might have had the second best performed steps of the competition, and it got them literally nowhere. It's like watching "the best" do single salchows and get rewarded while teams doing triple salchows receive lesser scores. Worse, everyone has realized that single salchows (slow, shallow steps) gets better scores than doing anything difficult so the whole field is following in this direction. The Mrazkovi are valiantly fighting, but if you're not going to be rewarded, then what's the point? Move to the power coach and get in line and wait until you're 33?

Instead, risk comes to play with having a too-long skirt, mistiming lifts, and the always treacherous twizzles. But again, you can twizzle with barely any forward momentum if you're a top senior team and get stunning GOE. Again, the juniors are twizzling circles around the top senior teams.

SOS.

 

[Wyliefan]

It's a huge mess. And I can't imagine what it's like for these talented young juniors to graduate to seniors and be told, "Now ditch all those things you've worked so hard on and give us slop!" It must be disheartening.

 

[skategal]

Just watched the FD at GPF and wow do I ever miss La/La, Car/Pon, and Lop/Bri at this event.

Those teams plus Zing/Kol and any other random team would have made for a much better competition.

I did love Vincent this time and almost loved The Whale but boring event overall except for Zing/Kol.

 

[Private Citizen]

Gilles and Poirier contemplated retirement after the last Olympics and probably should have retired.

Similar to Guignard and Fabbri, their age is showing, and their skating looks haggard in places. They're no longer as good as they used to be. I'm sure it's disappointing for them to fall behind younger teams, but that's where their skating is at this point (IMO they should be even lower and are not even Canadian number ones at this point). Perhaps teams will learn to move on with grace instead of having to be shovelled off the ice.

People say they want movement... but then when it happens they complain. In reality, they want to win or want their favourites to win -- and don't particularly care how it happens. They don't really care about fairness or what's happening on the ice as long as the "right" team is winning. They'll justify any result they like and complain about any result they don't. For years, people have complained about a team with a fall winning ice dance... but today a team with a disruptive fall was robbed and should have won . Sometimes I shake my head.

The ISU judges, including Shawn Rettstatt, are fairer than most fans, IMO. Still, I think ice dance is beyond all hope and should be kicked out of the Olympics. It's too inherently political. The rules are vague and open to interpretation. The best you can get is agreement on "segments" of teams (OK, good, great), and even then you'll have a lot of disagreement. The more the ISU tries to fix it, the sillier it gets. Just kill it at this point. Or make it a recreational sport.

 

[marbri]

The problem that has existed for a few years now is that Piper, Paul and Carol have in some way teamed up with Charlene, Marco and Barbara to present themselves as some sort of David against the Goliath that is IAM. But when you believe that it all comes down just politics and only politics then you end up missing the forest for the trees. Or maybe in their case they are missing the trees for the forest depending on what you consider each to be.

 

[skategal]

My problem is actual ice-dancing is not being rewarded.

All that gets rewarded now is how big you can smile and sell the program while throwing your bodies and partners across the ice and in the air as fast as possible without the scoring system that exists in pairs for the acrobatic skills required there.

Whoever said it was Vibe-Dancing was 100% correct.

I don’t think IAM is manipulating anything. I think they just rightfully figured out it’s all about the vibes and how good you look doing it that matters.

 

[Ice_dance_fan]

In detailed results can see that it was judges from countries whose best teams training in IAM who put Piper and Paul down, so IAM manipulation with results are real.

 

[angi]

In detailed results can see that it was judges from countries whose best teams training in IAM who put Piper and Paul down, so IAM manipulation with results are real.

The Chinese judge had G/P 3rd, he also falls into the category of "countries whose best teams train in IAM", so why didn't he join the manipulation? The Canadian judge also had them 3rd btw, and you'd think he would have them above FB/C with their fall, but even he didn't feel the need to give them the big push.

IAM cannot manipulate the results. They can perhaps do a lot to try and influence the judges, but the only way for them to succeed is if the system is built in a way that allows it to be manipulated. So if anything, we should be blaming the system, but skaters and coaches (and fans to a degree) who go against the system can suffer repercussions, so it's easier to go against a dominant school, that way you still air out your frustration, but you are less likely to get hit for it.

 

[VarBar]

If G/P believe that IAM manipulated the results, they should be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise it's just their biased perception and the baseless opinion of their coaches.

 

[marbri]

My problem is actual ice-dancing is not being rewarded.

All that gets rewarded now is how big you can smile and sell the program while throwing your bodies and partners across the ice and in the air as fast as possible without the scoring system that exists in pairs for the acrobatic skills required there.

Whoever said it was Vibe-Dancing was 100% correct.

I don’t think IAM is manipulating anything. I think they just rightfully figured out it’s all about the vibes and how good you look doing it that matters.

Isn't that kind of what Z/K do ?

 

[Peepsquick]

Carol Lane has been retweeting a lot of posts saying G/P were robbed and blaming IAM of manipulation and such. It's safe to say that skaters and coaches are so done that they are holding back much less than before.

I would take everything Carol Lane says with a huge grain of salt: she is far from partial (memories from the last Olympic cycle where she was a master of double-edge compliments).
I used to love G/P but in their previous iteration, where they were really fun, quirky, innovative. A real fresh voice in the field. They lost me at "Vincent" and the following FDs. It's just a matter of personal taste (to saccharine sweet for me).
On a technical level, I do not think that they've reached top level. Take that for what it is worth, coming from someone who never skated and has learned only by watching ice dance couples over the years. I think they are great resilient athletes but when I watch them, I feel something is missing.
I also believe that the idea that, if you stick long enough in the field you are owed a top ranking, is wrong, on so many levels. They are owed recognition for a great body of work and for their own innovation and style but not an automatic top ranking if others do better.

Don't hate me! I like them both but I am a bit tired of the "wuz robbed" mantra.

 

[marbri]

Gilles and Poirier contemplated retirement after the last Olympics and probably should have retired.

Similar to Guignard and Fabbri, their age is showing, and their skating looks haggard in places. They're no longer as good as they used to be. I'm sure it's disappointing for them to fall behind younger teams, but that's where their skating is at this point (IMO they should be even lower and are not even Canadian number ones at this point). Perhaps teams will learn to move on with grace instead of having to be shovelled off the ice.

People say they want movement... but then when it happens they complain. In reality, they want to win or want their favourites to win -- and don't particularly care how it happens. They don't really care about fairness or what's happening on the ice as long as the "right" team is winning. They'll justify any result they like and complain about any result they don't. For years, people have complained about a team with a fall winning ice dance... but today a team with a disruptive fall was robbed and should have won . Sometimes I shake my head.

The ISU judges, including Shawn Rettstatt, are fairer than most fans, IMO. Still, I think ice dance is beyond all hope and should be kicked out of the Olympics. It's too inherently political. The rules are vague and open to interpretation. The best you can get is agreement on "segments" of teams (OK, good, great), and even then you'll have a lot of disagreement. The more the ISU tries to fix it, the sillier it gets. Just kill it at this point. Or make it a recreational sport.

No more than Chock/Bates if we are really going to be honest here.

 

[jmtfti]

I appreciated the skaters calling out Rettstatt at Finlandia. He's the person with arguably the most power on the tech end of the sport, as head of the committee, and he's putting himself in positions to sit on competition panels. It's absurd and prominent competitors should call him and his inconsistencies over the years out, even if it's self-serving.

But I simply cannot wuzrob teams who have more or less attained their positions at the top through attrition and ice dance's refusal to allow upward movement from the youth.

 

[marbri]

Honestly both teams are just coached by coaches who still believe traditional ice dance is the best and choreograph accordingly. But I think they really overlook that the judging panels are going to be influenced by the latest seminar they took to keep their credentials current and I would put money on the fact that Chock and Bates are being used as examples of excellence in those seminars. And so they will judge with that as the guide for excellence. And the head of the IDTC is Rettstatt so his vision of what makes ice dance great will have great influence.

 

[skategal]

Isn't that kind of what Z/K do ?

Yes but at least they are something new and I’m not bored of them yet.

 

[VGThuy]

If G/P believe that IAM manipulated the results, they should be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, otherwise it's just their biased perception and the baseless opinion of their coaches.

They’re filing a motion arguing that the standard of proof is “some evidence” while experts say it’ll mostly be split down the middle between “some evidence” and “beyond a reasonable doubt” to “preponderance of the evidence.”