U.S. Women [#4]: How Dare You

[Karen-W]

Even then, she's not stealing a spot though. She wasn't written into Nationals by some special consideration or by taking away an allocated spot. She's taking the spot she earned outright by the qualifying procedure.

I know on FSU there's often a vocal group about letting others get their 'chance' so they can add Nationals/internationals or whatever to their resumes, but it's still her spot.

Well, in the sense that she has been granted a bye which would have been filled by the 3rd highest scoring woman outside the top 2 at each Sectional, yes, she IS taking away a spot from someone else if she doesn't actually compete at Nationals.

You can see this in the Men's list... Since only 8 byes are being used/issued instead of the 10 max (which is the case for the women) due to both Nathan & Vincent deciding well in advance to not compete at Nationals, the 3rd & 4th highest scoring men outside the top 2 at each Sectional are getting spots at Nationals. If either Nathan or Vincent or both of them had said "yeah, I think I'll be there" then, like the women, only the top 2 at-large spots would be open. And, if they did decide, down the road, to not compete after all and their spots weren't filled, then they would have taken those spots away from other men (and we'd probably be up in arms about that too).

All of this is rather ridiculous, though, since 1) we don't know for sure whether or not she really does plan on competing at Nats (yes, the recent article indicated she wasn't), but also, 2) she IS entitled to a bye as the reigning silver medalist/Worlds team member, so while it would be disappointing should she withdraw and not be replaced by the #3 highest scorer, she's still earned that bye and the beef should be not with her but with the USFS for not replacing her if that's what winds up happening. Whatever shape she shows up in is her own business - she earned that bye, whether anyone here likes it or not.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Surprised to see Gracie going to Graz. Skate America wasn't a disaster. But, my impression is that she needs more stamina to skate a complete free. That, she could work on at home. In accepting is she saying the main issue is doing it in competition? So, another one in the walk up to nationals gives her another practice. Still, Graz is lovely this time of year.

 

[Frau Muller]

…, in the sense that she has been granted a bye which would have been filled by the 3rd highest scoring woman outside the top 2 at each Sectional, yes, she IS taking away a spot from someone else if she doesn't actually compete at Nationals.
…

Agreeing to this, 100%. Can’t b.s. it!

I don’t give a crap that Karen Chen gets a BYE. Just enjoy Cornell.

 

[On My Own]

I AM SCREECHING AFFECTIONATELY

 

[tony]

Well, in the sense that she has been granted a bye which would have been filled by the 3rd highest scoring woman outside the top 2 at each Sectional, yes, she IS taking away a spot from someone else if she doesn't actually compete at Nationals.

Did you read what I wrote and you replied to, though? The situation was if she finished a distant last at Nationals-- not if she'd actually compete.

My opinion still stand that if she finishes a distant last at Nationals (not likely anyways), she's still not taking a spot from anyone.

Agreeing to this, 100%. Can’t b.s. it!

I don’t give a crap that Karen Chen gets a BYE. Just enjoy Cornell.

If she feels up to it, why can't she do both? Some fans are sure quick to retire a lot of skaters but then the skaters get destroyed by some of the same fans for not having an easy transition out of the sport.

 

[Tesla]

Karen earned her spot, just like everyone else going to Nationals.

 

[clairecloutier]

I don't think anything was officially announced, but it looks like Paige Rydberg has retired. Her LinkedIn page (which just came up in my feed) says "Former Team USA Figure Skater," and she's now working in human resources/recruiting.

 

[Willin]

Yes, I find it interesting that Karen is currently listed for Nationals. She isn't training full time, however she is skating several times a week at Cornell. I suppose the allure of skating one last tome in front of a home crowd in San Jose must be part of her thought process.

Why would you think that's solely what Karen wants to do, though? Maybe she actually does want to compete again-- either for a real shot at Worlds or to be in competition at home on her own terms.

Per her instagram she is doing intercollegiate this year, so even if she's not training full time for a Senior international competitor or doing high level international competitions, she is definitely running programs and competing. Interestingly enough, her latest post showed her doing what looked like a solo dance free dance and not a freestyle program.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

OK, I'll bite. Karen skated last season just a shadow of her former self. Surely, she knows if she has her jumps back. Without them she was miserable last season. Like Josie Chiunard said "The last thing in my skate was always tears". I hope if she's still not fit someone on her team will tell her. When Gracie's skating broke down she (slowly) worked her way back up through qualifying for nationals. She may have a right to a bye but it doesn't mean she deserves it.

 

[VGThuy]

A shadow of her former self still placed second at Nationals and top ten at Worlds (yes you can argue it was a depleted Worlds but that's still respectable standings). She earned her bye as per the rules. Blame the USFS rules for sectional qualifications, not her.

 

[tony]

OK, I'll bite. Karen skated last season just a shadow of her former self. Surely, she knows if she has her jumps back. Without them she was miserable last season. Like Josie Chiunard said "The last thing in my skate was always tears". I hope if she's still not fit someone on her team will tell her. When Gracie's skating broke down she (slowly) worked her way back up through qualifying for nationals. Karen may have a right to a bye but it doesn't mean she deserves it.

Please give it a rest. She was 8th at Worlds while being a ‘shadow of herself’ and no one knows what condition she’s in right now to make proclamations.

It would be better if some posters just straight-up said ‘I don’t want to see this skater compete anymore’ between this thread and the Brown discussions, because that’s certainly what it reads as.

 

[mattiecat13]

“Karen Chen - I’m incredulous. Is USFS that desperate for getting eyes on the TV tube, considering the already-loaded Sr US women’s field? I feel almost the same about Jason…but at least he should provide some interesting new programs (I hope truly new - not Riverdance: The Grandpa).”

I'd rather see Riverdance 2.0 than Schindler's List again.

 

[Deleted member 221]

The problem is with the US judges rather than the skaters. People would have far fewer issues with the skaters continuing to compete if we had any confidence that they'd be judged correctly, in line with international standards. Instead, we have Helen Keller as the technical specialist, Stevie Wonder as her assistant, and judges handing out PCS based on an applause-o-meter like it's Landover World Pros.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Please give it a rest. She was 8th at Worlds while being a ‘shadow of herself’ and no one knows what condition she’s in right now to make proclamations.

It would be better if some posters just straight-up said ‘I don’t want to see this skater compete anymore’ between this thread and the Brown discussions, because that’s certainly what it reads as.

That's how you read it. Big fan of Jason and a bit less for Karen. Just having a discussion here.

 

[Evgeniafan]

I'm happy to see Karen. She's a beautiful skater. And I am optimistic that she could make top 5.

 

[Rukia]

I remain amazed how salty people get over Karen Chen.

 

[Karen-W]

I remain amazed how salty people get over Karen Chen.

LOL - oh, you know people would be salty had Mariah Bell also chosen to compete at Nationals.

 

[tony]

LOL - oh, you know people would be salty had Mariah Bell also chosen to compete at Nationals.

Nope, I don’t think so honestly.

They’d use the Japan Open score and say she was still competitive and wish her the best in her quest to get back to Worlds and maybe medal. Or that they are sooooo happy she stayed in.

But then again, those same people were probably questioning why she even continued past 2021. It’s hard to follow with her trajectory of fan support over the last 2 years

That's how you read it. Big fan of Jason and a bit less for Karen. Just having a discussion here.

You used Gracie Gold as an example when she herself went to a Grand Prix nowhere near ready to skate, still ‘took the spot’, and withdrew after the short. And in her case, she fell so far off the competitive radar that she had to requalify to get to Nationals. Again, Chen was on the podium at Nationals last year and made the top 10 at Worlds. It’s not the same comparison. At all.

 

[Karen-W]

Nope, I don’t think so honestly.

They’d use the Japan Open score and say she was still competitive and wish her the best in her quest to get back to Worlds and maybe medal. Or that they are sooooo happy she stayed in.

But then again, those same people were probably questioning why she even continued past 2021.

You mean like all the people (like me) who wish Jason had passed on Nationals, even though he skated very well at Japan Open and looks to be competitive?

Mind, I don't begrudge Jason the right to use his bye any more than I begrudge Karen her right to use hers, nor would I have begrudged it of any of the skaters who had a bye but didn't choose to use it this season. But, I do get why folks in this thread are annoyed that Karen didn't just move on and let some skater who has to go through Sectionals have the spot instead.

Also, we don't really know whether Karen is or will be in shape to be competitive at Nationals. Looking at Cornell's academic calendar, she is going to have several weeks off in late December to ramp up her training. I'm not sure if the "Winter Session", which runs Jan 3-20, is optional or not, but if it is, she'd miss, potentially, the first week of their spring semester's classes to compete at Nationals, and have a solid 5-6 weeks of training under her belt coming into San Jose.

Academic Calendar 2023-2024 | Cornell University Registrar

Some programs, including Johnson MBA Programs, Law, and Vet have different academic calendars. In addition, please be aware of religious holidays.

registrar.cornell.edu

 

[tony]

You mean like all the people (like me) who wish Jason had passed on Nationals, even though he skated very well at Japan Open and looks to be competitive?

You wish Jason had passed on Nationals because you want other people to get their chance- that’s what you’ve stated in that thread. Others in that thread threw out very random reasons or comparisons, including one that others were not Jason’s age. Then the Jimmy Ma comparison came from me.

Mind, I don't begrudge Jason the right to use his bye any more than I begrudge Karen her right to use hers, nor would I have begrudged it of any of the skaters who had a bye but didn't choose to use it this season. But, I do get why folks in this thread are annoyed that Karen didn't just move on and let some skater who has to go through Sectionals have the spot instead.

But this is the problem- as I said upthread. Makes more sense to me for those to say ‘I don’t want to see this skater, I’d rather see someone else.’ Yet left and right in this thread and even in the Brown discussion, people are making up other reasons that make no sense. As I quoted above, talking about Gracie Gold having to requalify makes zero sense. It was a completely different situation.

Also, we don't really know whether Karen is or will be in shape to be competitive at Nationals. Looking at Cornell's academic calendar, she is going to have several weeks off in late December to ramp up her training. I'm not sure if the "Winter Session", which runs Jan 3-20, is optional or not, but if it is, she'd miss, potentially, the first week of their spring semester's classes to compete at Nationals, and have a solid 5-6 weeks of training under her belt coming into San Jose.

Academic Calendar 2023-2024 | Cornell University Registrar

Some programs, including Johnson MBA Programs, Law, and Vet have different academic calendars. In addition, please be aware of religious holidays.

registrar.cornell.edu

But still, it’s her decision to go out and skate and that’s all there is to it. If she’s not 100% competitive with the top names, should she just pass on it? Who knows, maybe with her time split between skating and something else, it’ll make her more relaxed and have better skates rather than living and breathing skating as a career 24/7. You don’t know, I don’t know, no one knows.

 

[Karen-W]

You wish Jason had passed on Nationals because you want other people to get their chance- that’s what you’ve stated in that thread. Others in that thread threw out very random reasons or comparisons, including one that others were not Jason’s age. Then the Jimmy Ma comparison came from me.

But this is the problem- as I said upthread. Makes more sense to me for those to say ‘I don’t want to see this skater, I’d rather see someone else.’ Yet left and right in this thread and even in the Brown discussion, people are making up other reasons that make no sense. As I quoted above, talking about Gracie Gold having to requalify makes zero sense. It was a completely different situation.

But still, it’s her decision to go out and skate and that’s all there is to it. If she’s not 100% competitive with the top names, should she just pass on it? Who knows, maybe with her time split between skating and something else, it’ll make her more relaxed and have better skates rather than living and breathing skating as a career 24/7. You don’t know, I don’t know, no one knows.

Well, I think that one can say "well, it's his bye, so if he wants to use it, that's fine" yet still think he shouldn't have used it and instead given the spot to another skater - or that, should he place in the top 3, he might take a Worlds spot away from a skater who could use the experience. The presumption in this thread is that Karen is not competitive for the top 3 at Nationals.

That, in and of itself, is an unfair assumption since our US women are just as inconsistent as our men. Perhaps because Amber, Starr and Ava have all had some nice success on the GP, it's easy to overlook just how inconsistent they are. I daresay the discussion in the Men's thread about Jason competing at Nationals would have a different tone had Jimmy and Camden delivered better at either US Challenge or SCI. With regard to Karen, if she skates in San Jose like she did in Nashville, there's no reason to think she won't finish Top 3 at Nationals and possibly take away a Worlds spot from another skater who could use the experience.

And, yes, I would be miffed at putting her on the Worlds team, even though one could make the same exact arguments about her as some are making in support of Jason - ie "I feel safer about the US keeping three spots if he's on the team." It isn't as though the women we're likely sending to Worlds have proven themselves to be consistent except maybe Isabeau, and only two of them have any previous Worlds experience (Bradie & Gracie) which is the same number of men who have previous Worlds experience (Ilia & Camden), and none of them have the Worlds track record that Karen has (which is actually better than Jason's).

So, just to be clear here... It's Karen and Jason's prerogative to use the bye spot they earned, and that's all well and good. Do I wish they'd stepped away and let other skaters have the opportunity? Yes, but, again, they have the bye and it's their right to use it, so whatever. Do I think either of them have any business being named to the Worlds team? Maybe? If they skate lights out and blow away some other inconsistent skaters with two clean performances, then eh, what the hell? But, if we're treated to another messy, error-filled competition with mere tenths of a point separating 3rd & 4th, I'd send the inexperienced skater to Worlds this year and let the chips fall where they may. After all, at that point, Jason & Karen will have earned themselves another bye to Nationals next year and can show up or not show up and we can go through this all over again in another 12 months, lol.

 

[Trillian]

The problem is with the US judges rather than the skaters. People would have far fewer issues with the skaters continuing to compete if we had any confidence that they'd be judged correctly, in line with international standards. Instead, we have Helen Keller as the technical specialist, Stevie Wonder as her assistant, and judges handing out PCS based on an applause-o-meter like it's Landover World Pros.

Which skaters did Karen beat at nationals who demonstrated the ability to regularly outscore her internationally?

Sure, the scores as a whole trend higher at nationals, but that’s always been true and it’s not just in the U.S. But in terms of where the individual skaters rank relative to one another, aside from maybe some very close decisions, I can’t think of any cases among the medalists in recent years where the U.S. judges ranked Skater X ahead of Skater Y at nationals even though an international panel would clearly have done the opposite with the same performances.

I know some fans prefer to watch shiny new skaters all the time rather than watching skaters who’ve been around awhile. But that’s a personal preference and it doesn’t mean anyone is obligated to retire just because you personally are sick of watching them. I’ve seen a lot of skaters compete for years even though they had no chance of medaling at worlds (or even nationals, in some cases). As long as they’re still able to qualify, they deserve to compete.

Most of these older skaters like Karen and Jason vaulted past a lot more experienced skaters when they were the young breakout stars. If everyone’s current favorite teenagers are really that special, they’ll do the same thing. And then in a decade the same people will be complaining about why they haven’t retired yet. It’s the circle of life!

 

[Deleted member 221]

Which skaters did Karen beat at nationals who demonstrated the ability to regularly outscore her internationally?

Let's have an honest caller and see. Chen's free skate in 2022, for instance, should have resulted in a 3Fe (minimum -3) and at least five underrotation calls, all with at least -2 and some warranting down to -5 GOE. She had one, plus two q's. It's ridiculous to have USFS callers take a blind eye to jumps that international panels consistently call underrotated.

 

[tony]

Let's have an honest caller and see. Chen's free skate in 2022, for instance, should have resulted in a 3Fe (minimum -3) and at least five underrotation calls, all with at least -2 and some warranting down to -5 GOE. She had one, plus two q's. It's ridiculous to have USFS callers take a blind eye to jumps that international panels consistently call underrotated.

Hasn’t that been the story at Nationals for most skaters throughout history, though? I don’t disagree with the boosting up on both sets of marks- I remember the tangents I went on in 2011 and 2013 when Ryan Bradley won his title with super inflated marks across the board and 2013 with Max Aaron’s 8+ PCS that I was sure was going to drop to high 5’s/low 6’s at Worlds.

But international calling isn’t consistent at all, either. See Satoko Miyahara’s career or any skater in general who has never done either the Lutz or flip on the correct edge yet get anywhere from +3 to -5 ‘e’ for the exact same jump from competition to competition. Alysa Liu last year also had, IMO, very questionable rotation much of the time that was generally overlooked aside from the Grand Prix series.

An ‘honest’ caller would go to town on the majority of the women at US Nationals, so who knows how it would end up.

 

[VGThuy]

I wonder when we find out whether Karen gets to wear an Olympic silver or gold medal.

 

[Trillian]

Let's have an honest caller and see. Chen's free skate in 2022, for instance, should have resulted in a 3Fe (minimum -3) and at least five underrotation calls, all with at least -2 and some warranting down to -5 GOE. She had one, plus two q's. It's ridiculous to have USFS callers take a blind eye to jumps that international panels consistently call underrotated.

There might be a case for Isabeau since it was close, but I don’t believe for one second an international panel would have put any other skater in that event ahead of Karen overall with the performances they all skated. The scores at nationals are irrelevant because they’re generous for everyone every year in pretty much every country. That doesn’t mean the placements were out of line.

 

[On My Own]

@VGThuy LOVE YOUR NEW DISPLAY PICTURE I AM STILL SCREECHING AFFECTIONATELY

 

[pachelbel]

I wonder when we find out whether Karen gets to wear an Olympic silver or gold medal.

Gold if all is right in the world!

Imagine your only international ISU medals being an Olympic gold medal and... three other challenger series bronzes.

****ing epic.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Hasn’t that been the story at Nationals for most skaters throughout history, though?[...]

An ‘honest’ caller would go to town on the majority of the women at US Nationals, so who knows how it would end up.

Last year other skaters -- e.g., Audrey Shin -- did get nearly every jump called. I'm not sure any got an "e," but others like Lindsay Thorngren and Gracie Gold got warning marks. So the calling isn't consistent. I can't come up with any argument why Shin's jumps should be called but Chen's should not, or why Thorngren or Gold should receive edge warnings while Chen should not.

There might be a case for Isabeau since it was close, but I don’t believe for one second an international panel would have put any other skater in that event ahead of Karen overall with the performances they all skated. The scores at nationals are irrelevant because they’re generous for everyone every year in pretty much every country. That doesn’t mean the placements were out of line.

Levito did beat Chen in the free. I don't agree with the argument that we should focus on placements. COP is about points, not placements. US national callers have a pattern of not calling technical errors for their favorites. That pattern needs to stop. Just because the cheating turned out not to be necessary doesn't mean it's not cheating.

 

[On My Own]

Gold if all is right in the world!

Imagine your only international ISU medals being an Olympic gold medal and... three other challenger series bronzes.

****ing epic.

Well she won't complain - much like KoKo have an Olympic team medal, and didn't even make the free skate in the ID event.