U.S. Ice Dance 2022-23 news & updates

Green/Parsons's score was SO far off their personal best, I still can't help thinking it was a fluke. If they work hard and make some fixes to their programs, I suspect they'll pull apart from the pack pretty soon.

Really happy for Wolfkostin/Chen's medal! They skated with such passion and joy today.
 
Wyliefan said:
Green/Parsons's score was SO far off their personal best, I still can't help thinking it was a fluke. If they work hard and make some fixes to their programs, I suspect they'll pull apart from the pack pretty soon.

Really happy for Wolfkostin/Chen's medal! They skated with such passion and joy today.
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I think Finlandia had the most GP-like judging panel - had they had the judges from Budapest I think it would've been different.
 
litenkyckling said:
I think Finlandia had the most GP-like judging panel - had they had the judges from Budapest I think it would've been different.
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Yeah, Budapest's scores just seemed so much higher than what we've seen even at the rest of the Challengers - and people were thinking Lombardia was generously scored, but Budapest... Especially with LajLag boosting their SB by nearly 9 points from just two weeks ago at Nepela. That's why I called it out in my post. Maybe we should blame Lakernik, now that we know he's working for the Hungarian fed, lol.

I do think there are some causes for concern for the GrePar fans here, because while Finlandia was well off their PB, it was, probably the closest approximation to what we can expect from them, score-wise, on the GP, if they don't make some significant improvements in a very short amount of time.
 
I think both American teams (Wolfstokin/Chen & the Browns) were robbed in Budapest. Granted, they were not as polished as the top two teams (from Canada and France) but I feel these results really highlight a core problem that I see right now in Ice Dance.

The top two teams (from Canada and France) were beautiful to look at. I really appreciate their extension, posture and beautiful body lines. These are things that the American teams were lacking and need to work on. Yet, it's clear to me that the top two teams (in Budapest) were just gliding from element to element rather than dancing...they were essentially doing Pair Skating.

The top two teams chose music with no discernable beat. It was not dance music. The judges seem to love this kind of soft, ballad-y, melodious music and the judges obviously love the way the skaters can glide to that kind of music but without a beat, you can't call that "dancing."

I would agree with the results if the top two had scored one and two in the Pairs discipline but this was Ice Dance and as such the teams should be judged on their ability to dance to a beat. That's where the American teams outdid the Canadians and the French (and should have been 1st and 2nd in the Ice Dance event).
 
layman said:
I think both American teams (Wolfstokin/Chen & the Browns) were robbed in Budapest. Granted, they were not as polished as the top two teams (from Canada and France) but I feel these results really highlight a core problem that I see right now in Ice Dance.

The top two teams (from Canada and France) were beautiful to look at. I really appreciate their extension, posture and beautiful body lines. These are things that the American teams were lacking and need to work on. Yet, it's clear to me that the top two teams (in Budapest) were just gliding from element to element rather than dancing...they were essentially doing Pair Skating.

The top two teams chose music with no discernable beat. It was not dance music. The judges seem to love this kind of soft, ballad-y, melodious music and the judges obviously love the way the skaters can glide to that kind of music but without a beat, you can't call that "dancing."

I would agree with the results if the top two had scored one and two in the Pairs discipline but this was Ice Dance and as such the teams should be judged on their ability to dance to a beat. That's where the American teams outdid the Canadians and the French (and should have been 1st and 2nd in the Ice Dance event).
Click to expand...
I have a feeling this will be the ice dance debate for this Olympic cycle.
 
layman said:
I think both American teams (Wolfstokin/Chen & the Browns) were robbed in Budapest. Granted, they were not as polished as the top two teams (from Canada and France) but I feel these results really highlight a core problem that I see right now in Ice Dance.

The top two teams (from Canada and France) were beautiful to look at. I really appreciate their extension, posture and beautiful body lines. These are things that the American teams were lacking and need to work on. Yet, it's clear to me that the top two teams (in Budapest) were just gliding from element to element rather than dancing...they were essentially doing Pair Skating.

The top two teams chose music with no discernable beat. It was not dance music. The judges seem to love this kind of soft, ballad-y, melodious music and the judges obviously love the way the skaters can glide to that kind of music but without a beat, you can't call that "dancing."

I would agree with the results if the top two had scored one and two in the Pairs discipline but this was Ice Dance and as such the teams should be judged on their ability to dance to a beat. That's where the American teams outdid the Canadians and the French (and should have been 1st and 2nd in the Ice Dance event).
Click to expand...
I have to say I thoroughly disagree with you here. I’m not sure we watched the same US teams as I don’t think either of them “danced” more than the top 2.
 
layman said:
I don't think so.

Ice Dance should be Ballroom Dancing on Ice. If you want to know how Ice Dance should look, just watch Ball Room Dancing. The kind of music that the Top two in Budapest chose, would never be allowed in Ball Room Dance.
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This is an outdated opinion and you're living in some other galaxy if you're going to try to sell that as what ice dance should be.

The ISU may have wanted that in the 70s and 80s, but there's a reason why compulsories have now gone by the wayside and the rhythm dance themes have gotten quite.. unique in the last few seasons. Clearly, the ISU has moved quite a bit from ballroom and teams have been pushing the types of dances we see since the 80's, if not earlier.

Dance encompasses a lot of movement past ballroom.
 
Green/Parsons need to work some more on their programs (as all teams do early in the season) but their low score at Finlandia was also due to lost levels. Given the late coach switch/program changes, that's not surprising, but they lost at least 5 points off their base value alone. Just skating at their usual level, now that they've had a chance to put out the program, should give them a boost and hopefully we'll see tweaks to the choreo.
 
tony said:
This is an outdated opinion and you're living in some other galaxy if you're going to try to sell that as what ice dance should be.

The ISU may have wanted that in the 70s and 80s, but there's a reason why compulsories have now gone by the wayside and the rhythm dance themes have gotten quite.. unique in the last few seasons. Clearly, the ISU has moved quite a bit from ballroom and teams have been pushing the types of dances we see since the 80's, if not earlier.

Dance encompasses a lot of movement past ballroom.
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I agree that getting rid of the compulsories and the pattern dances was a move by the ISU to drop the Ball Room dancing components of Ice Dance but without these components, we are just seeing Pair Skating. If that is what the ISU wants, then I see no need for two separate categories.
 
We do have a general ice dance discussion thread (Dance Hall 10) in the Trash Can, ICYMI. ;)

Back to U.S. ice dance news... (re-posting here from C/B's fan thread):

Tweeted on Oct. 13, 2022: https://twitter.com/KatCornetta/status/1580660272507019264
In Madison Chock and Evan Bates' #SkateAmerica pre-event press conference today, Bates said that their free dance this year is "less character-driven" unlike the last few years. It is based on their love story (they're engaged.) "No one is an alien, a snake or an astronaut."
Madison Chock says that while their rhythm dance has "a twist", they are really working with a strong ballroom style.
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Another quote: https://twitter.com/AnythingGOE/status/1580661346932494337
“We were super inspired this summer because we got engaged, we wanted to fuse more of our story into our free dance. The music is from a local Montreal artist, it appealed to us to have a little piece of our new home on the ice.”
Click to expand...
 
On Green and Parsons, I also think it's worth pointing out that their PB is well above any other international score they've gotten. That's not to say that they didn't deserve that score or that it should be disregarded, just that it might be relevant to what to expect of them right now.

Last season scores:
  • Autumn Classic : 188.43
  • Skate Canada : 186.51
  • Gran Premio Italia : 178.26
  • Warsaw Cup : 187.84
  • Four Continents: 200.59
So until 4CCs, they were scoring mostly in 186-188 range. Different team, but I remember Lajoie/Lagha getting a big PB at 4CCs 2020 (192.11, when their previous best was 177.53) and it took them until Nepela this fall score in the 190s again. Not that the situation is the same, but just an example that sometimes a big score in the second half of the season doesn't carry over right away to the next year. Also, since it was an Olympic season, Gr/Pa were the top team at the event.

I definitely think that the Finlandia score was disappointing, but maybe it should be compared to the high 180s scores they were getting last fall, rather than their PB, especially given the late coaching change. What do other people think?
 
layman said:
I agree that getting rid of the compulsories and the pattern dances was a move by the ISU to drop the Ball Room dancing components of Ice Dance but without these components, we are just seeing Pair Skating. If that is what the ISU wants, then I see no need for two separate categories.
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I guess you’ve never noticed that pairs skating has throws and overhead lifts?
 
RoseRed said:
I also think it's worth pointing out that Green/Parson's PB is well above any other international score they've gotten. I'm not saying they didn't deserve that score, just that it might be relevant to what to expect of them right now.

Last season scores:
  • Autumn Classic : 188.43
  • Skate Canada : 186.51
  • Gran Premio Italia : 178.26
  • Warsaw Cup : 187.84
  • Four Continents: 200.59
So until 4CCs, they were scoring mostly in 186-188 range. Different team, but I remember Lajoie/Lagha getting a big PB at 4CCs 2020 (192.11, when their previous best was 177.53) and it took them until Nepela this fall score in the 190s again. Not that the situation is the same, but just an example that sometimes a big score in the second half of the season doesn't carry over right away to the next year. Also, since it was an Olympic season, Gr/Pa were the top team at the event.

I definitely think that the Finlandia score was disappointing, but maybe it should be compared to the high 180s scores they were getting last fall, rather than their PB, especially given the late coaching change. What do other people think?
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A two-month delay in competing relative last year in tandem with a change in coaches, choreographers and training environments could easily have a large impact.
 
RoseRed said:
I also think it's worth pointing out that Green/Parson's PB is well above any other international score they've gotten. I'm not saying they didn't deserve that score, just that it might be relevant to what to expect of them right now.

Last season scores:
  • Autumn Classic : 188.43
  • Skate Canada : 186.51
  • Gran Premio Italia : 178.26
  • Warsaw Cup : 187.84
  • Four Continents: 200.59
So until 4CCs, they were scoring mostly in 186-188 range. Different team, but I remember Lajoie/Lagha getting a big PB at 4CCs 2020 (192.11, when their previous best was 177.53) and it took them until Nepela this fall score in the 190s again. Not that the situation is the same, but just an example that sometimes a big score in the second half of the season doesn't carry over right away to the next year. Also, since it was an Olympic season, Gr/Pa were the top team at the event.

I definitely think that the Finlandia score was disappointing, but maybe it should be compared to the high 180s scores they were getting last fall, rather than their PB, especially given the late coaching change. What do other people think?
Click to expand...
I think the score that is closest to realistic for where they were, internationally, is their SCI score from last season. Warsaw Cup last season was infamously overscored (DavSmo, MuraTaka, et al earned PBs there, IIRC). GPI they had some major errors after a very good GP debut at SCI. They get back to getting their levels and they probably will be in the same range - mid 180s.
 
Dai's Blues for Klook said:
What a limited view of dance.
Click to expand...

I mean, that is still what the ISU rules state that ice dance music should be:

Rule 710 paragraph 1 clause c sub clause i:
The music must have an audible rhythmic beat and melody, or an audible rhythmic beat alone, but not melody alone, and may be vocal. The music may be without an audible rhythmic beat for up to 10 seconds at the beginning or at the end of the program and up to 10 seconds during the program.

but L/L's music does mostly fit that definition anyway, so I'm not sure what the argument is.
 
Karen-W said:
So, Budapest Trophy was interesting... Part of me thinks this was a generously scored event, but we'll see how things play out on the GP. Having said that, a clean Wolfkostin/Chen have demonstrated they're competitive with the likes of Pate/Bye, McNamara/Spiridonov and Green/Parsons for the US #3 spot this season. Meanwhile, the Browns are still trailing behind and have much work to do.

Looking ahead to the GP - there are some GREAT matchups we have to help sort things out, and of course, we're waiting for Carreira/Ponomarenko's season debut (TBD MKJW/TBD Espoo).

GPdF - Wolfkostin/Chen and Pate/Bye
NHK - Wolfkostin/Chen and Green/Parsons

Tier 1 -
Wolfkostin/Chen - 164.07 US Classic (fall in RD & extended lift in FD)/180.46 Budapest (extended lift in FD)/TBD GPdF/TBD NHK
Pate/Bye - 179.63 US Classic/178.69 Nepela/TBD GPdF
McNamara/Spiridonov - 179.03 US Classic/166.05 Nebelhorn (with errors in both segments)/TBD SkAm
Green/Parsons - 177.34 Finlandia/TBD SCI/TBD NHK

Tier 2 -
Bratti/Somerville - 170.54 Lombardia/TBD SCI
Brown/Brown - 160.62 Nepela (twizzle error by Oona in RD)/166.33 Budapest (extended lift in RD)/TBD SCI/TBD Espoo

Tier 3 -
Ling/Wein - 140.83 Finlandia (twizzle errors in FD)
Cesanek/Yehorov - 138.87 Nebelhorn (twizzle errors in both segments & extended lift in FD)/TBD SCI

Oh, and someone needs to call MIDA and tell them to fix that extended lift that Wolfkostin/Chen have been hit for at both US Classic and now Budapest Trophy.
Click to expand...
I have been following Cesanek/Yehorov for a few years now. I love the chemistry the two have together. Although I love to watch ice dance, in no way shape or form am I up to date on what to look for on the technical side of things! Could you please break down for me what the hell happened to my team at Nebelhorn. I have never seen them score so low before! I was expecting them to be right up there in close competition this year with Pate/Bye, Wolfkostin/Chen, McNamara/Spiridonov, etc. Granted they did get a bad start to the new season due to them having to drop out of Lake Placid due to Cesanek’s emergency surgery for her appendix in July! But falling down to last place after the FD at Nebelhorn…….I was like what’s wrong with my team 😔
 
To be honest, I’m somewhere in the middle when it comes to this debate. I do think it’s easier to skate through the music or to skate to the melody, which is why it’s an often-replicated style. It’s much harder to keep up with a fast beat and to a rhythm. But that said, some of my favorite programs are dances that move away from traditional ballroom and bring the audience on an emotional journey. However, I also love dances that clearly have dance in it as well because the problem with lyrical dancing in ice dance is unless you have the talent of like Papadakis/Cizeron or other top teams, lesser skilled teams can look like they’re more akin to pairs skating (without the fun and impressive pair elements) where teams are just gliding to the music. That’s why audiences love what Chock/Bates have brought in the past few seasons and even the audience-pleasing teams like Fear/Gibson and Smart/Diaz’s Zorro’s routine last season, because there’s something about overt dancing to a beat and with a challenging time that the audience senses is special as well.

That said, I also think a team like Pap/Ciz are wrongfully labeled as only being a “lyrical” team or that their style is just melody (that some dance fans complained that everyone under them copied) because they had some great rhythm dances AND their FDs have required difficult time keeping and dancing to rhythms as well. Watch their Olympic winning FD (or better yet, 2022 Worlds) or their 2017 Worlds FD (what a challenging routine!).
 
CesYeg said:
I have been following Cesanek/Yehorov for a few years now. I love the chemistry the two have together. Although I love to watch ice dance, in no way shape or form am I up to date on what to look for on the technical side of things! Could you please break down for me what the hell happened to my team at Nebelhorn. I have never seen them score so low before! I was expecting them to be right up there in close competition this year with Pate/Bye, Wolfkostin/Chen, McNamara/Spiridonov, etc. Granted they did get a bad start to the new season due to them having to drop out of Lake Placid due to Cesanek’s emergency surgery for her appendix in July! But falling down to last place after the FD at Nebelhorn…….I was like what’s wrong with my team 😔
Click to expand...
C/Y's rhythm dance score wasn't that bad in the grand scheme of things, and it's about what they were scoring at their senior Bs and Grand Prix event last year. Their free dance score just took a twenty point nosedive. If you look at the scoresheet, the main culprit is a really bad combo lift, which got dinged to a level 2 + base with very low GOE. They also got an extended lift deduction on their first lift and had level 3 twizzles.

Despite all their technical mistakes, perhaps most interesting is that the US judge at Nebelhorn really lowballed them compared to all the other judges. The US judge placed them dead last in the event, if you look at skating scores, over 13 points behind the team in 10th place, and the PCS that the US judge gave was abysmally low.

I have no clue what sort of political message the US judge was trying to send, because the same judge also overscored C/Y in the rhythm dance. It's all a lot to analyze, and will make C/Y's scores at their Grand Prix event very interesting.

C/Y's Free Dance Protocol:
skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com skatingscores.com

Judge Breakdowns for the Rhythm Dance:
skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com skatingscores.com

Judge Breakdowns for the Free Dance:
skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com skatingscores.com
 
dancelion21 said:
C/Y's rhythm dance score wasn't that bad in the grand scheme of things, and it's about what they were scoring at their senior Bs and Grand Prix event last year. Their free dance score just took a twenty point nosedive. If you look at the scoresheet, the main culprit is a really bad combo lift, which got dinged to a level 2 + base with very low GOE. They also got an extended lift deduction on their first lift and had level 3 twizzles.

Despite all their technical mistakes, perhaps most interesting is that the US judge at Nebelhorn really lowballed them compared to all the other judges. The US judge placed them dead last in the event, if you look at skating scores, over 13 points behind the team in 10th place, and the PCS that the US judge gave was abysmally low.

I have no clue what sort of political message the US judge was trying to send, because the same judge also overscored C/Y in the rhythm dance. It's all a lot to analyze, and will make C/Y's scores at their Grand Prix event very interesting.

C/Y's Free Dance Protocol:
skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com skatingscores.com

Judge Breakdowns for the Rhythm Dance:
skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com skatingscores.com

Judge Breakdowns for the Free Dance:
skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.
skatingscores.com skatingscores.com
Click to expand...
Thank you so very much for explaining the tech things to me for C/Y. Yes, I was definitely upset after their FD! I’m afraid to watch when they go to Skate Canada 😳
 
Dai's Blues for Klook said:
Then the ISU also has a limited view on dance...
Click to expand...
This all reminds me of the 1988-1992 era when ice dance was moving extreme into the interpretative/stage sort of dancing that made it difficult to judge as it becoming less apples vs. apples. The ISU over-corrected it for the 1992-1994 where they wanted it to go back to ballroom to make it more practical to judge and to make it seem more like a sport. Then they altered it a bit but started to slowly roll out more and more required elements for both the OD and FD, to emphasize more dancing (and judging individual skills for each partner to foster more well-balanced teams where both partners have to develop their skills); then many of them became itemized in the code of points when the scoring system changed.

I think some time in the past decade or so, ice dance really became more about skating skills and ensuring teams master the “basic” steps and turns from the skating textbook. I remember in 2008-2018 where the three-member tech panel calling levels truly started to determine the rankings. Now, judges are getting rid of compulsory steps because the ISU wanted ice dance to just have two phases rather than three, but after twelve years, they didn’t like the Frankenstein monster OD/SD/RDs where “pattern steps” seemed tacked on. So to make up for it, we’re now in a phase where to make up for lack of compulsories, we have FDs and now RDs with like three or four non-leveled elements that are judged solely on GOE and many of them are requiring teams to add “choreographic” moves as a way to dictate ice dance teams to show actual dancing to a rhythm because without making them itemized elements, ice dance teams may not take it upon themselves to…dance.

This whole convo reminds me of The Simpsons where Mr. Burns is watching a ballet performance and he’s complaining to Mr. Smithers that there was “far too much dancing and not enough prancing.” And annoyed Smithers responded with “A little mincing” would be nice as in he wanted Mr. Burns to mince his words and shut up.
 
VGThuy said:
This whole convo reminds me of The Simpsons where Mr. Burns is watching a ballet performance and he’s complaining to Mr. Smithers that there was “far too much dancing and not enough prancing.” And annoyed Smithers responded with “A little mincing” would be nice as in he wanted Mr. Burns to mince his words and shut up.
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Actually, I think the current free dances all prove that ice dancers are far from artists. Even with all the simplified requirements and freedom of movement, we haven't had anything that's worth more than a single watch, IMO. Then couple that with its being the most difficult to judge athletically, and I'm not sure we have an Olympic discipline anymore.
 
tony said:
This is an outdated opinion and you're living in some other galaxy if you're going to try to sell that as what ice dance should be.

The ISU may have wanted that in the 70s and 80s, but there's a reason why compulsories have now gone by the wayside and the rhythm dance themes have gotten quite.. unique in the last few seasons. Clearly, the ISU has moved quite a bit from ballroom and teams have been pushing the types of dances we see since the 80's, if not earlier.
Click to expand...
Just going back to the 90s, I think about some of my favorite Free Dances and they're definitely NOT ballroom - Klimova & Ponomarenko's Air FD, Grishuk & Platov's Arabian FD and Memorial FD, Annisina & Peizerat's Romeo & Juliet FD.

Even in the early 90s, there were free dances that were more ballet, more modern dance, than ballroom - Usova & Zhulin's Statues FD, the Duschesnays' Missing FDs. The whole 91 Words podium featured free dances that were not at all ballroom!

The idea the Ice Dance should be "ballroom on ice" has been outdated for decades.
 
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