U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[becca]

And it wouldn't have mattered, because a GP score is the same as Cranberry or a CS in the factoring. But, apparently, not in becca-land.

Once again yes he had one shaky Senior debut. He is a new skater he also landed six quads something Jason has never done and something that is needed if one wants to be competitive in the world stage for medals.

 

[Stephanie]

They are still holding that ridiculous Jr Worlds Selection Camp at the end of January for the Men & Women. And, for at least Malinin, Levito, Thorngren & Seo, it's ridiculous to not name them outright since we all know they're the best choices we have for that. About the only question I have is the 2nd spot for the Jr Men (we only have 2 spots).

The US has 3 men’s spots for junior worlds (Naumov was 5th and Torgashev 8th in 2020)

 

[Karen-W]

The US has 3 men’s spots for junior worlds (Naumov was 5th and Torgashev 8th in 2020)

Oh, whoops! I missed Torgashev's 8th place finish. I suppose that's all the more reason to send Kapeikis if he wants to go and can put a junior program together.

 

[misskarne]

Oh, whoops! I missed Torgashev's 8th place finish. I suppose that's all the more reason to send Kapeikis if he wants to go and can put a junior program together.

I hope he does, because he was delightful and I'd love to see him again this year.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Just waking up to this in Berlin. Wow, what a sh*t storm. Someone said USFS could go either way Ilia/Jason - that is correct. Neither has a chance at a metal. I am happy with the outcome. Jason brings some things no one else can do; he also keeps the bar raised for PCS. (To maximize jump points the programs of the top half dozen skaters have become boring.)

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

With so much about the Oly team we've overlooked the other men's stories. The biggest must be the resurrection of Camden Pulkinen. I loved his skating as a junior. Real quality, beautiful jumps. Then the years of darkness. He couldn't find his place in seniors and I thought he might give up.

Not so. He's mostly landed his 4T. And at nationals he threw it down. Hope he is back on track.

Jimmy Ma had a disappointing free. Otherwise he also seems to be finding his place.

Liam Kopecnis (sp) also had a good competition. Quality there. Needs a quad.

After this year there will likely be a shift. I don't seen Nathan and probably others continuing. We'll look on these last 6 years as a golden age of US men's skating.

 

[On My Own]

Everything about every single one of Kagiyama’s jumps, toe jumps included, is better to me than Malinin’s the air position, the distance, the speed on the landing, the deep edge out, etc. but we aren’t going to agree.

Course we won't agree. However, that doesn't mean I'm being foolish, nor does it mean he's capable of getting +5 for all his jumps, which he's never done (and probably never will).

By the way, you and everyone who agrees with you don't have to watch any of this, but I hope the others have a look at each of their lutzes that I'm posting here:

Malinin: https://youtu.be/xfI9pkjv9AA?t=196 (similar technique on his 4Lz too, I don't want to dig too deep to find a solo 3Lz from him)
Kagiyama: https://youtu.be/g9fl2dxU-sY?t=65

Or of their 3Fs:

Malinin: https://youtu.be/xfI9pkjv9AA?t=97
Kagiyama: https://youtu.be/g9fl2dxU-sY?t=196 (same issue as before, if we compare from seasons ago, it won't be current anymore)

Or their 4T+3Ts:

Malinin: https://youtu.be/PYtO-quW0W0?t=62
Kagiyama: https://youtu.be/g9fl2dxU-sY?t=82

Kagiyama does enter and exit his jumps with more speed (usually), but he's not better on every regard, and his toe jump take-offs are far inferior. Malinin does actual, difficult transitions into his 4T, 3F, and 3A (which, of course, are GOE criteria). Malinin (if he develops well) will jump like Ilia Kulik used to. Kagiyama isn't even the best jumper in Japan, and won't ever be.

ETA: And before someone says I just don't like Kagiyama: I do. I just never believed some thought his jumps were +5 quality.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

All I know is that a coach is almost useless to their skaters if they fail to look at the pre-established selection criteria the season before an Olympic year. The last two rounds have proven that you need to know them inside and out. It doesn't matter whether we like it or not. They are going to be used.

And I do think that is overall good for the skaters. The criteria aren't perfect but everyone is on a more equal playing field in knowing how they will be reviewed. The smart ones will plan ahead.

 

[Holy Headband]

Why are people pitting Malinin against Brown when Zhou was gifted 3rd place and should have been behind Brown? He’s the one who should have been left off the Olympics team if we were going by performance at Nationals.

 

[On My Own]

Why are people pitting Malinin against Brown when Zhou was gifted 3rd place and should have been behind Brown? He’s the one who should have been left off the Olympics team if we were going by performance at Nationals.

Because Zhou was already ahead on the tier criteria to both of them (Zhou in tier 2, Brown and Malinin in tier 3). I personally disagree that they should have adhered to their tiers when someone blew 3rd and 4th out of the water, but that's the main reason.

 

[Andrea82]

Challenge Cup Feb 24-27 - this would be cutting it extremely close and there's always the concern it could be cancelled

If he doesn't do Bavarian Open, enter him in all February competitions left (Sofia Trophy, Merano Trophy, Reykjavik Games, Dragon Trophy, Jegvirag Cup, Bellu Memorial, Sarajevo Open)...statistically speaking, one of them will take place!
It has not been unusual this season to have skaters entered in more than one competitions scheduled for the same week as it is not always clear which ones will take place in the end...

 

[Deleted member 221]

I guess people really didn’t pay attention the selection criteria that had been around since before the season started.

I understand this point re: Vincent Zhou, but not Jason Brown. If the criteria were really this clear cut, the USFS should've named the team in advance, especially given the C19 situation. What was the point of having Jason Brown go through hell, risking his health, in an attempt to get to Nashville? TV ratings? If he was already guaranteed the spot, tell him that and have him stay at home.

So, Ilia just posted this clip on his IG in the last hour... https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYiO02LKepQ/?utm_medium=copy_link

Which one will we see ratified first in competition? Yuzuru's 4A or Ilia's 4T-4T?

Probably neither because the 4T+4T doesn't make any sense, given it's not legal in the short program and given the limit on repeating one quad in the free skate? It's all risk and no reward. He'd be worse off than doing 4T and later 4T+1eu+3F, unless it opens up another box for something? If he wants to be the first, I hope he does it in a lesser competition because it doesn't seem smart strategically.

He has also posted clips of 3Lz+4T and 3Lz+4Lo (maybe q) . I'd love to see him try the 3Lz+4Lo, in the second half of the program no less. I wouldn't be shocked if he can do 4Lz+4T in a year's time, and that might make sense strategically.

If I was on the USFS selection committee and wanted to troll the Fanyus, I would've sent Artur Jr. to 4CCs only if he promised to attempt the 4A in the short, and for the free, just keep on trying to land the 4A for the entire four minutes until he lands a ratified one and snipes Hanyu to become the first man to land a quadruple Axel

Suspending disbelief for a second, if he only succeeded on the third or more attempt, I wonder if 4A* (or any other *) jump would count as the first ratified one? It wouldn't receive any GOE or points. I love all of the hypotheticals this has raised.

 

[Trillian]

I understand this point re: Vincent Zhou, but not Jason Brown. If the criteria were really this clear cut, the USFS should've named the team in advance, especially given the C19 situation. What was the point of having Jason Brown go through hell, risking his health, in an attempt to get to Nashville? TV ratings? If he was already guaranteed the spot, tell him that and have him stay at home.

Well, sure. They could have let everyone stay home this year and ended up with exactly the Olympic team they have now. Pairs would’ve been a tough call, but still a better option than making every Olympic team contender travel in the middle of a particularly contagious surge to one city where a bunch of people around them were guaranteed to be unmasked even if the USFS contingent was all careful. Not canceling nationals this year in the first place was one of the dumbest decisions USFS has ever made, and we’ve only seen the beginning of the fallout.

 

[Frau Muller]

…I hope Ilia is not discouraged by this but comes back stronger than ever. …

Or eventually skates for Uzbekistan, like his parents?

 

[AYS]

I'm pretty sure folks didn't realize a few weeks ago what a complete ****show an omicron nationals would look like. I think it's just how the situation evolved.

Apart from that issue, I don't agree with folks who are saying Nationals had nothing to do with the selection. Obviously Jason was being considered above Ilia based on the criteria in the lead-up to Nationals. However, I think if Jason had skated like he did in 2018, they would not have gone with him. The performances he gave here (and finishing well above Vincent in the LP) were considered in the selection.

 

[Spun Silver]

It also show USFS does not give a sh*t if the skaters they send can hope to at best skate to a 7th place finish, when they instead could send a skater who could win a medal! Malinin is AT LEAST as good as the young Japanese skater who medalled at worlds last year at age 17!

I was telling my husband we have a men's team that could sweep the Olympic podium. Not now. I'm shocked. And I do love Jason.

 

[olympic]

Why should he skate for a federation that doesn’t believe in him? That won’t back him? They just told the World they don’t believe in him or his talent. He is not a favored one.

Now that I think about it I don’t think it would be wise for him to switch given the rules. But he absolutely was screwed and if I am a young skater I take a seriously hard look at how USFSA treats their young talent not one.

To prioritize a man who as never even won a senior GP event.

But they do believe in Ilia because they are sending him to Worlds, so they are telling the world that they believe in him

 

[olympic]

You do realize that he could stay in the US with the same coach and represent another country?

Point taken, but it is f--ing stupid for Ilia or his advisors to be provoked into a temper tantrum, leave the country that I assume he is culturally attached to, risk a new country (IF you are thinking Russia, you don't think he'd be exposed or experience certain unseemly politik over there?), and be unable to compete the next 2 years, which does nothing about the current situation. He will have MANY opportunities including another Olympiad if he is consistently that good, which we all seem to agree on at this point.

 

[olympic]

Oh, I assume you mean they gave an Olympic spot to Jason.

It is sad that this Ilia person (who I have never seen skate) has to be consistently good, but Jason has been objectively consistently bad as a competitor, that is, he has never been technically competitive but gets to go the the Olympics for a 2nd time. It seems like they would do the Zhou "plan for the future thing" with this Ilia person and leave off Jason, who already has "Olympian" on his resume.

Jackie Wong posted on Twitter that Jason's median score is higher than Ilia's score. Didn't the PTB take that into consideration?

 

[sk9tingfan]

Point taken, but it is f--ing stupid for Ilia or his advisors to be provoked into a temper tantrum, leave the country that I assume he is culturally attached to, risk a new country (IF you are thinking Russia, you don't think he'd be exposed or experience certain unseemly politik over there?), and be unable to compete the next 2 years, which does nothing about the current situation. He will have MANY opportunities including another Olympiad if he is consistently that good, which we all seem to agree on at this point.

There was a lot of bravado in his interview with Andrea Joyce. He said that he should be given an Olympic berth because, "Look what I've been through". I assume he was referring to recovering from injuries. I sensed a toddler tantrum coming on.

He's not the only skater that has been taken out by severe injuries; look at Nathan. And Nathan never expressed that he should be given an Olympic berth; his persona is much humbler in person. And that also applies to Vincent and Jason.

BTW, he still has one outstanding problem (see below):

Malinin was given a spot on the U.S. team at the World Championships in March - along with Chen and Zhou - pending his getting the technical minimum for worlds, which is higher than that for the Olympics.

 

[wickedwitch]

There was a lot of bravado in his interview with Andrea Joyce. He said that he should be given an Olympic berth because, "Look what I've been through". I assume he was referring to recovering from injuries. I sensed a toddler tantrum coming on.

He's not the only skater that has been taken out by severe injuries; look at Nathan. And Nathan never expressed that he should be given an Olympic berth; his persona is much humbler in person. And that also applies to Vincent and Jason.

Gosh, I thought it was his grammar in that interview that bothered you. Now it's his attitude?

 

[sk9tingfan]

Gosh, I thought it was his grammar in that interview that bothered you. Now it's his attitude?

Yes. He has a lot of growing up to do.

Brilliance at nationals unsurprisingly not enough to earn Ilia Malinin an Olympic spot

Ilia Malinin finished second, but he upstaged Nathan Chen and everyone else in the competition, in the short program and free skate.

olympics.nbcsports.com

 

[thvu]

There was a lot of bravado in his interview with Andrea Joyce. He said that he should be given an Olympic berth because, "Look what I've been through". I assume he was referring to recovering from injuries. I sensed a toddler tantrum coming on.

So you're making a judgement about his behavior based off an assumption?

This is how the younger generations are. They're more open about how they feel. They don't believe there is a need to feel shamed about their internal processes. In fact, they greatly resist these old-school repressive notions.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with his saying he deserves to be on the Olympic Team. Your desperate need to criticize him on the other hand might be worth some examination.

 

[sk9tingfan]

So you're making a judgement about his behavior based off an assumption?

This is how the younger generations are. They're more open about how they feel. They don't believe there is a need to feel shamed about their internal processes. In fact, they greatly resist these old-school repressive notions.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with his saying he deserves to be on the Olympic Team. Your desperate need to criticize him on the other hand might be worth some examination.

Anyone who lists himself as a quad God and then blurts out what he did, IMO, suggests someone who may have been ill advised. While I agree that his ability i impressive, one performance does not comprise a body of work. You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

 

[Cherub721]

So you're making a judgement about his behavior based off an assumption?

This is how the younger generations are. They're more open about how they feel. They don't believe there is a need to feel shamed about their internal processes. In fact, they greatly resist these old-school repressive notions.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with his saying he deserves to be on the Olympic Team. Your desperate need to criticize him on the other hand might be worth some examination.

According to the Hersh article, after the live interview where he said he felt he deserved a place on the team, Ilia was more muted backstage and said it was in the committee's hands. It gave me the impression that he got a talking to.

 

[thvu]

Anyone who lists himself as a quad God and then blurts out what he did, IMO, suggests someone who may have been ill advised. While I agree that his ability i impressive, one performance does not comprise a body of work. You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

What's wrong with saying he thinks he deserves to be on the Olympic Team? That you value the repression of honesty shows how in the past your values are.

No one is taking issue with your comparing bodies of work (which you know aren't part of the criteria. @Karen-W has taken great pains to update and educate us all on the matter.) What I take issue with is your finding inane reasons to criticize a young athlete. Especially attacking his grammar - this is absolutely uncalled for when the vast majority of people have terrible grammar.

 

[canbelto]

There was a lot of bravado in his interview with Andrea Joyce. He said that he should be given an Olympic berth because, "Look what I've been through". I assume he was referring to recovering from injuries. I sensed a toddler tantrum coming on.

He's not the only skater that has been taken out by severe injuries; look at Nathan. And Nathan never expressed that he should be given an Olympic berth; his persona is much humbler in person. And that also applies to Vincent and Jason.

BTW, he still has one outstanding problem (see below):

Malinin was given a spot on the U.S. team at the World Championships in March - along with Chen and Zhou - pending his getting the technical minimum for worlds, which is higher than that for the Olympics.

I really, really hope you don't have any 17 year olds in your life, because you are awfully judgmental about someone based on very little. Of course he thinks he "deserves" to go to the Olympics -- he did what was needed to qualify. Also, I saw the interview and it was not a "toddler tantrum." Nor did he speak with any discernable accent, and he does go to high school in Virginia. So you don't have to call ACS that his parents are neglecting his education.

 

[sk9tingfan]

What's wrong with saying he thinks he deserves to be on the Olympic Team? That you value the repression of honesty shows how in the past your values are.

No one is taking issue with your comparing bodies of work (which you know aren't part of the criteria. @Karen-W has taken great pains to update and educate us all on the matter.) What I take issue with is your finding inane reasons to criticize a young athlete. Especially attacking his grammar - this is absolutely uncalled for when the fast majority of people have terrible grammar.

Poor grammar is one of my pet peeves and I have seen its deterioration in the media and in general.

 

[thvu]

According to the Hersh article, after the live interview where he said he felt he deserved a place on the team, Ilia was more muted backstage and said it was in the committee's hands. It gave me the impression that he got a talking to.

Sigh, I wonder who gave him the talking to. We know it wasn't RAF.

 

[Yuri]

Well this Russian article from Sports-Express is certainly going to stir the pot in its Malinin vs. Brown selection analysus. They believe that Malinin's peak skating ability based upon his scoring trails only Chen and Hanyu, so they are highly critical of the USFS on that basis for not supporting its 17-year old prodigy. Especially for selecting the inferior Brown as his "swan song" instead.

Американцы не пустили русскоязычного юниора на Олимпиаду. «Выразительный» образ победил четверные?

Концепция «позитивной дискриминации» в действии.

www.sport-express.ru

Here's the final paragraph where the Russian author doesn't hold back on his views on the bias in the selection process:

One can argue for a long time how outstanding artistically Jason is an athlete, but there is an indisputable fact: he is already 27 and with a high probability the Games in Beijing are a swan song for him. And he is already weaker than Malinin, whose path is just beginning. In response to the news of missing the Olympics, Ilya posted a successful attempt at a cascade of two fours in a row. Before him, this was not obeyed by any skater, but only on the basis of the cost of a combination of 19 points. I didn't want to talk about it, but there is every reason to suspect that the factor of Jason's open homosexual orientation played. Nbc announced with pathos that Timothy Leduc's greenhouse became America's first non-binary champion and athlete with this personality type at the Winter Olympics. Together with Brown, they can become the face of the concept of "positive discrimination" - a position in sociology where previously segregated communities should gain a competitive advantage and be supported. All this is great and has the right to life, but is there still a place for sports?