U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[kwanfan1818]

To say that Jason body of work deserves the same kind of consideration as a skater who has brought in major titles….

Did Jason Brown skip Nationals and petition for an Olympic spot?

I didn't think so.

 

[becca]

Ilia had one JGP season under his belt from 2019.

So he should be punished because he wasn’t a world beard at 15? Was Jason?

For the record I posted this long ago. I am not a fan of body of work unless a skater has demonstrated they are a contender for a world or Olympic medal.

It’s foolish to create a situation where young rookies cannot make teams over skaters who have never delivered major results.

 

[becca]

Did Jason Brown skip Nationals and petition for an Olympic spot?

I didn't think so.

But why should he be guaranteed a spot without Kwan like results

 

[Karen-W]

I understand this point re: Vincent Zhou, but not Jason Brown. If the criteria were really this clear cut, the USFS should've named the team in advance, especially given the C19 situation. What was the point of having Jason Brown go through hell, risking his health, in an attempt to get to Nashville? TV ratings? If he was already guaranteed the spot, tell him that and have him stay at home.

Oh, I think he was told he needed to show up in Nashville come hell or high water or he could kiss the Olympics goodbye to the other guys who finished Top 3.

Why do I say that? Take it for what it's worth but another interesting tidbit that Dave Lease dropped in the TSL Nationals review last night was that IAM asked the USFS if their teams could withdraw and focus on the Olympics and staying isolated and were told nope, no can do. Now, for CarPon, I get it, and maybe for HawBak, but why tell C/B and H/D they need to show up at Nats? USFS wanted them there competing at the premier domestic event and neither Omicron nor the travel risk posed to those certifiable medal contenders was going to stop them from telling those skaters they needed to show up. They absolutely expected Jason to show up and compete or he wasn't going to get to Beijing.

You can blame that on Jason Brown, too, because he would have dropped out of Group 3, had he placed 6th like he did in 2018. You might argue that the only reason they held Nationals was to see if Jason Brown wouldn't fail.

No, Jason was in Group 3 based on his International Scores and no placement at Nats would have dropped him out. I do wonder what they would have done had he finished behind Camden and/or Jimmy instead of 4th.

 

[VGThuy]

No, Jason was in Group 3 based on his International Scores and no placement at Nats would have dropped him out. I do wonder what they would have done had he finished behind Camden and/or Jimmy instead of 4th.

If Camden and Jimmy skated the same way, that would have been due to Jason having a total and utter implosion full of popped jumps and falls. Jason wouldn't have made the team if he placed 6th, IMO. Now if Camden and, especially Jimmy, skated better and Jason fell behind them, that may have been even worse because at least with the former, you can excuse it on a truly awful performance but to have a bad performance and other men showing they can skate well enough to beat Jason as well...

 

[twinsmom]

I have a question regarding Artur Dmitriev (Jr.). In his short program, the protocols show that he did a 3Lz/3F which had a base value of 7.7 (the flip was downgraded). I remember watching that combo and being confused because I'm sure he landed the lutz on the wrong foot I guess so he could be on the right foot to do a flip. But how is it possible for him to get any points because he didn't land the lutz on a back outside edge, which is how you get credit for that first jump? I hope this question makes sense. Some friends at the competition and I were talking about it and we couldn't figure it out. (And on another note, I didn't realize that he tried a 4A in his free skate until I saw the scoreboard, and then saw Jackie freaking out about it -- it was a pretty good attempt.)

 

[Seerek]

I gotta say, the judges were beyond "GOE happy" to all the top skaters in the Free Skate, +4s and +5s all over the place . I don't think I've ever seen anything like that before in singles in the +5 GOE Era, national or international.

 

[VGThuy]

I have a question regarding Artur Dmitriev (Jr.). In his short program, the protocols show that he did a 3Lz/3F which had a base value of 7.7 (the flip was downgraded). I remember watching that combo and being confused because I'm sure he landed the lutz on the wrong foot I guess so he could be on the right foot to do a flip. But how is it possible for him to get any points because he didn't land the lutz on a back outside edge, which is how you get credit for that first jump? I hope this question makes sense. Some friends at the competition and I were talking about it and we couldn't figure it out. (And on another note, I didn't realize that he tried a 4A in his free skate until I saw the scoreboard, and then saw Jackie freaking out about it -- it was a pretty good attempt.)

Good question. Until I saw that he attempted that combo earlier, I didn't know you could land on the opposite foot and have a jump be counted outside of a Euler.

 

[On My Own]

I have a question regarding Artur Dmitriev (Jr.). In his short program, the protocols show that he did a 3Lz/3F which had a base value of 7.7 (the flip was downgraded). I remember watching that combo and being confused because I'm sure he landed the lutz on the wrong foot I guess so he could be on the right foot to do a flip. But how is it possible for him to get any points because he didn't land the lutz on a back outside edge, which is how you get credit for that first jump? I hope this question makes sense. Some friends at the competition and I were talking about it and we couldn't figure it out. (And on another note, I didn't realize that he tried a 4A in his free skate until I saw the scoreboard, and then saw Jackie freaking out about it -- it was a pretty good attempt.)

From 2020-21's clarifications on jumps:

Landing on another foot: In combinations/sequences all jumps with more than one revolution, except the last one may be landed on either foot.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file (page 20)

 

[On My Own]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeBHw7hCkes

One-foot axels, which were mentioned in 6.0 IIRC (but IDK if they were counted or not), landed on the left back inside edge, too.

 

[jlai]

Ilia's first JGP year did not happen due to the funk. That meant he would get no GP assignments so there was no choice but for him to finally do the JGP circuit this past fall. And USFS did not select him due to lack of Senior international experience. Basically the perfect storm was working against him.

He did all that was expected from him and then some. Any skater in that position deserves better.

Timing isn’t a selection factor. It is created by the pandemic. I am sure those athletes who were peaking in 2020 were lamenting the cancellation of worlds. bad timing affects all athletes in different ways. It is so easy to blame the fed in hindsight.

But no one complained to the extent when the criteria came out or when Ilia didn’t get minimum or didn’t have more senior competition. In fact majority of folks weren’t complaining about a somewhat predetermined Chen Zhou Jason team and didn’t say Jason’s records weren’t ok, along his top ten finish and ability to help out when quadsters fail suddenly aren’t enough. Jason’s records were not a complaint point until Ilia had two great skates.

Give it a month or two to see Ilia’s next event first.

 

[twinsmom]

.

From 2020-21's clarifications on jumps:


https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file (page 20)

Thanks for this! I guess that's how it's judged. But it sure seems weird. And to answer your next comment, yes, there were definitely axels and salchows that were landed on a different foot. I remember Michael Chack doing something like a one foot axel into a 4S back in his first year in seniors.

 

[On My Own]

Thanks for this! I guess that's how it's judged. But it sure seems weird. And to answer your next comment, yes, there were definitely axels and salchows that were landed on a different foot. I remember Michael Chack doing something like a one foot axel into a 4S back in his first year in seniors.

Yes, the girl I linked in fact is also doing a one foot axel into a single salchow

 

[AYS]

Thanks for this! I guess that's how it's judged. But it sure seems weird. And to answer your next comment, yes, there were definitely axels and salchows that were landed on a different foot. I remember Michael Chack doing something like a one foot axel into a 4S back in his first year in seniors.

Jill Trenary did a 1-foot axel into 3salchow way back in the day (circa 1990); I think it was her hardest element.

 

[Willin]

Jackie Wong posted on Twitter that Jason's median score is higher than Ilia's score. Didn't the PTB take that into consideration?

Yes. They did take that into consideration. They also probably took into consideration that Jason's best is nearly 20 points higher than Ilia's best and that Jason's worst is still 10ish points higher than Ilia's best.

Another big point they take into consideration is consistency. Jason, despite pretty consistently falling on his quad attempts, is otherwise pretty consistently clean and scoring >255. Meanwhile, Nationals was the first time this season Ilia has put together back-to-back clean skates. That shows Jason is more consistent and more consistently getting good scores in comparison to Ilia.

They also could've taken into consideration that Ilia tends to get 6.5-7.5 PCS internationally and gets called for URs a fair amount. Both are things he will improve on with time and reputation. He's a star of the future, but not quite ready now.

Once again how is a young skater suppose to have body of work.

No is guaranteed a Senior GP that’s earned.

This is a young kid who had no opportunities to even compete against Brown till his this weekend and he demolished him technically it wasn’t close.

It’s not like Brown has a chance of an individual Olympic medal

He could've chosen to skate in the Senior ranks this year, asking for a host pick for Skate America.

He also could've chosen to do more than one Senior B along with his Junior Grand Prix events - even something like Cranberry Cup at the Senior level that would mean minimal travelling and had open sign-ups - no hoping USFS would assign you. Many of the other Senior skaters/teams hoping for an Olympics or even world's spot tend to ask USFS for 2 Senior B assignments - some this season even did 3 - to build their resume. There are plenty of Senior B's that USFS could've sent him to if he wanted to build a resume.

I saw it said elsewhere that his team probably didn't do this because they didn't see this as his year to go to the Olympics - and that makes sense given his resume before this season. It wasn't until yesterday that anyone was seriously questioning why he would be left off the team. That tells you something.

A lot of skaters look like they were on downward trends only to peak at the Olympics so you never know. All I know is that you don't ignore the scores Vincent can achieve, has achieved multiple times. He's the only other for sure medal contender when he's on. We all know Vincent bombed 2 out of 3 Worlds trips but he also did well at the Olympics and one other Worlds, where he medaled. Ilia Malinin will be battling to overcome Jason Brown's PCS and GOEs internationally and his last international senior competition was poor with 4 rotation calls and much lower scores than Brown and Vincent has scored on the senior level. People love harping on Vincent's past scores and performances but they're totally ignoring Malinin's past scores this past season as well.

Exactly. His quads looked clean at Nationals, but given how people were speaking I was surprised to look at Ilia's history this year and see how many falls and URs he's had this season. He's hardly been as consistent or as good as he was at Nationals the rest of the season.

 

[kwanfan1818]

But why should he be guaranteed a spot without Kwan like results

1. He wasn't guaranteed anything. He was selected for the last spot from among his group.
2. The standards for petitioning onto the team are separate from the results-based selection criteria, which includes Nationals results as one of the required inputs.

 

[Karen-W]

Forgot to share this last night but Vincent posted this on his IG story about Ilia... https://instagram.com/stories/govin...ce=ig_story_item_share&utm_medium=share_sheet

 

[skateboy]

Forgot to share this last night but Vincent posted this on his IG story about Ilia... https://instagram.com/stories/govin...ce=ig_story_item_share&utm_medium=share_sheet

Vincent is very gracious and classy.

 

[jenny12]

Ilia saying “I definitely deserve to go” was kind of adorable to me. It felt like an over-eager puppy. Now obviously if he starts bashing other skaters that’s wrong but this call for media training and grammar lessons seems a bit much to say the least.

 

[overedge]

Jill Trenary did a 1-foot axel into 3salchow way back in the day (circa 1990); I think it was her hardest element.

And it was a damn good one too.

 

[soogar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeBHw7hCkes

One-foot axels, which were mentioned in 6.0 IIRC (but IDK if they were counted or not), landed on the left back inside edge, too.

Jill Trenary did a 1 foot axel - 3 salchow combination and I would think she had to land the axel on an inside edge for the salchow. I miss those cool combinations.

 

[olympic]

I think it’s important to step back and consider where the US is now. A decade ago, US skating fans were relieved to see top US men landing a 3A / skating reasonably clean. These were the benchmarks

 

[misskarne]

I think it’s important to step back and consider where the US is now. A decade ago, US skating fans were relieved to see top US men landing a 3A / skating reasonably clean. These were the benchmarks

And nine years ago the surprise US Champion not only had big clean 3As but big clean 4S, which he could land more than once in a free, something no other US man at the time could do, and he got immediate hate and backlash for it.

How the turn tables.

 

[Karen-W]

And nine years ago the surprise US Champion not only had big clean 3As but big clean 4S, which he could land more than once in a free, something no other US man at the time could do, and he got immediate hate and backlash for it.

How the turn tables.

I didn't hate Max Aaron. ;-)

 

[skateboy]

And nine years ago the surprise US Champion not only had big clean 3As but big clean 4S, which he could land more than once in a free, something no other US man at the time could do, and he got immediate hate and backlash for it.

How the turn tables.

Max never got hate from me! Mad respect. And he was denied a second title.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

And nine years ago the surprise US Champion not only had big clean 3As but big clean 4S, which he could land more than once in a free, something no other US man at the time could do, and he got immediate hate and backlash for it.

How the turn tables.

Max Aaron? Honestly I was thinking finally.

I admit that I like big jumps and I cannot lie. There was a reason that Joubert was my favorite skater for like 10 years.

 

[mtnskater]

And some of us like the finer points of figure skating like beautiful, deep edging, quality spinning and positions, artistry and expression, masterful footwork. We are the ones happy Jason was named. These elements are just as legitimate and important in the sport as jumps. But I sure am sad about not being able to take Ilia. Hopefully he will work on that second mark and become the complete skater. He is really progressing rapidly this season so I hope he gives us all a show at worlds.

 

[kwanfan1818]

No, Jason was in Group 3 based on his International Scores and no placement at Nats would have dropped him out. I do wonder what they would have done had he finished behind Camden and/or Jimmy instead of 4th.

I looked at Malinin's line of scores instead of Brown's.

I think if Brown had finished below anyone else, they would have chosen Malinin. But, as it was, he was less than .5 away from Bronze, and nearly 30 points ahead of 5th-place Pulkinen.

 

[Karen-W]

So, Ilia just did his own IG Live and no worries about his command of the English language and barely a hint of an accent except when he was pronouncing Russian names. He said he can speak Russian but isn't very good at reading or writing it and he has never been to Russia. He is such a typical North American teenage boy it's hilarious that anyone would ever think he would switch feds. He's also fairly media savvy in the sense that he knows how to keep a lid on things. He did say he thought he should be going to the Olympics but it was out of his hands and didn't seem to be despondent or terribly upset about it, which was nice. All in all, US Men's skating is really in good hands with this kid.

ETA - he also seems to love Armani and I don't think he would turn down a sponsorship from them, so maybe there is hope for better costumes from the current Quad King's successor, lol.

 

[jlai]

Brown should have gotten bronze over Zhou, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to selection. That said, fan debate would have shifted over to both Zhou Vs. Ilia and Ilia vs Brown instead.