U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[olympic]

I think once the dust has settled, Ilia will be fine. If he is consistently good, he will have plenty of opportunities to shine including in Milan. He will represent the US at Worlds this year.

I'm not sure why some posters are suggesting it's a good idea for him to throw a temper tantrum and leave the US, miss the Olympics AND 2 years of skating, only to resurface in another country and have to reestablish himself in a new environment w. new coaches, etc. Really smart move

 

[becca]

Most of them don’t go up that dramatically in the same season.

I can see his going up to 7.5/8.

 

[becca]

I think once the dust has settled, Ilia will be fine. If he is consistently good, he will have plenty of opportunities to shine including in Milan. He will represent the US at Worlds this year.

I'm not sure why some posters are suggesting it's a good idea for him to throw a temper tantrum and leave the US, miss the Olympics AND 2 years of skating, only to resurface in another country and have to reestablish himself in a new environment w. new coaches, etc. Really smart move

Why should he skate for a federation that doesn’t believe in him? That won’t back him? They just told the World they don’t believe in him or his talent. He is not a favored one.

Now that I think about it I don’t think it would be wise for him to switch given the rules. But he absolutely was screwed and if I am a young skater I take a seriously hard look at how USFSA treats their young talent not one.

To prioritize a man who as never even won a senior GP event.

 

[bardtoob]

I think once the dust has settled, Ilia will be fine. If he is consistently good, he will have plenty of opportunities to shine including in Milan. He will represent the US at Worlds this year.

Oh, I assume you mean they gave an Olympic spot to Jason.

It is sad that this Ilia person (who I have never seen skate) has to be consistently good, but Jason has been objectively consistently bad as a competitor, that is, he has never been technically competitive but gets to go the the Olympics for a 2nd time. It seems like they would do the Zhou "plan for the future thing" with this Ilia person and leave off Jason, who already has "Olympian" on his resume.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Oh, I assume you mean they gave an Olympic spot to Jason.

It is sad that this Ilia person (who I have never seen skate) has to be consistently good, but Jason has been objectively consistently bad as a competitor, that is, he has never been technically competitive but gets to go the the Olympics for a 2nd time. It seems like they would do the Zhou "plan for the future thing" with this Ilia person and leave off Jason, who already has "Olympian" on his resume.

And a participation trophy Olympic bronze medal from the team event.

 

[bardtoob]

And a participation trophy Olympic bronze medal from the team event.

Zhou was left off the team event in 2018, so it would be cruel to leave him off this time around. I think they will use some combination of Vincent and Nathan across the Men's SP and LP in the team event.

They might be dumb and use Vincent and Jason in the team event, which would risk Nathan leaving without some kind of medal if things don't go right.

 

[Willin]

Juniors PCs all go up once they hit seniors.

In case you didn't read my post, I did use the PCS he got at the Senior level, not the ones he got at the JGP (though those were still in the 7-7.5 range, giving Jason around the same advantage).

 

[carriecmu0503]

Zhou was left off the team event in 2018, so it would be cruel to leave him off this time around. I think they will use some combination of Vincent and Nathan across the Men's SP and LP in the team event.

They might be dumb and use Vincent and Jason in the team event, which would risk Nathan leaving without some kind of medal if things don't go right.

If they use Zhou in the team event, and he skates a short program like 2021 Worlds or a long program like 2022 Nationals, USFS gets what they deserve. He has consistently bombed over the years, and I would not trust him when a medal for his teammates is on the line.

 

[bardtoob]

If they use Zhou in the team event, and he skates a short program like 2021 Worlds or a long program like 2022 Nationals, USFS gets what they deserve. He has consistently bombed over the years, and I would not trust him when a medal for his teammates is on the line.

Jeremy did that in 2010. Nathan was off in 2018.

On the other hand, I always felt the wind was taken out of the sails of Lipnitskaya in the team event for the individual event in 2014.

 

[Tahuu]

Dimitriev's 4a

His 4A at nationals was much rotated than Yuzuru's at Japanese nationals.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Jeremy did that in 2010. Nathan was off in 2018.

On the other hand, I always felt the wind was taken out of the sails of Lipnitskaya in the team event for the individual event in 2014.

They knew what they might get from Jeremy in the team event, but being that he was national champion, and their only other option, Jason Brown, was not higher in the world rankings, they had virtually no choice but the include him in the event. There would have been zero justification not to use Nathan in 2018, and his poor performance in the team event SP came as a total shock. Nobody expected that. Totally different situation with Vincent this year. He is a) not the national champion; b) not the highest ranking US skater in the world rankings; and c) consistently does not compete well.

 

[VGThuy]

They knew what they might get from Jeremy in the team event, but being that he was national champion, and their only other option, Jason Brown, was not higher in the world rankings, they had virtually no choice but the include him in the event. There would have been zero justification not to use Nathan in 2018, and his poor performance in the team event SP came as a total shock. Nobody expected that. Totally different situation with Vincent this year. He is a) not the national champion; b) not the highest ranking US skater in the world rankings; and c) consistently does not compete well.

Vincent isn’t the only one who has had bad performances. Nathan has been amazingly consistently high scoring for the past three years but even he faltered at times, twice in 2018. Vincent had a bad LP here but Jason could easily replicate his Skate Canada LP in the TE as well or any one of his other LPs where he hit 150s. Vincent’s worst LP this season internationally was low 160s. His highest was high 190s. His middle one this season was high 180s. He scored high 90s close to a 100 in every SP on the GP season. I know people are pretending Malinin is the model of consistency but he could easily replicate his SP or LP from CS Austria or his LP from his French JGP. His highest LP this season internationally is close to what Jason would usually score.

 

[Karen-W]

The notion that Jason should be used in the FS for the TE is preposterous. He hasn't been any more consistent in hitting the FS this season than Vincent. In fact, he's 0/4 while Vincent is 2/4. If Jason is used in the TE it will be in the SP because Nathan has decided he doesn't want to do the TE, and it is the only logical reason Jason was named to the team over Ilia.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Vincent isn’t the only one who has had bad performances. Nathan has been amazingly consistently high scoring for the past three years but even he faltered at times, twice in 2018. Vincent had a bad LP here but Jason could easily replicate his Skate Canada LP in the TE as well or any one of his other LPs where he hit 150s. Vincent’s worst LP this season internationally was low 160s. His highest was high 190s. His middle one this season was high 180s. He scored high 90s close to a 100 in every SP on the GP season. I know people are pretending Malinin is the model of consistency but he could easily replicate his SP or LP from CS Austria or his LP from his French JGP. His highest LP this season internationally is close to what Jason would usually score.

Please. Let's not even remotely compare Vincent's tack record with Nathan's! Two bad performances 4 years ago, and a bad (for him) performance does not even remotely compare to Vincent. Vincent bombed the LP at 2018 Worlds, which would have cost the US team a spot for the next year's world team had an already retired Max Aaron not graciously agreed to compete. Vincent bombed at 2021 Worlds spectacularly. He bombed his nationals LP this year. This is not to mention all the GP events he has bombed. Nathan has not faltered anywhere near as much as Vincent. Jason hitting 150s is just NOT competitive with the sheer number of men who consistently score in the 180+ range, and there are several of them.

 

[CantALoop]

His 4A at nationals was much rotated than Yuzuru's at Japanese nationals.

If I was on the USFS selection committee and wanted to troll the Fanyus, I would've sent Artur Jr. to 4CCs only if he promised to attempt the 4A in the short, and for the free, just keep on trying to land the 4A for the entire four minutes until he lands a ratified one and snipes Hanyu to become the first man to land a quadruple Axel

 

[VGThuy]

Please. Let's not even remotely compare Vincent's tack record with Nathan's! Two bad performances 4 years ago, and a bad (for him) performance does not even remotely compare to Vincent. Vincent bombed the LP at 2018 Worlds, which would have cost the US team a spot for the next year's world team had an already retired Max Aaron not graciously agreed to compete. Vincent bombed at 2021 Worlds spectacularly. He bombed his nationals LP this year. This is not to mention all the GP events he has bombed. Nathan has not faltered anywhere near as much as Vincent. Jason hitting 150s is just NOT competitive with the sheer number of men who consistently score in the 180+ range, and there are several of them.

I feel like you ignored my entire post. I didn’t compare Vincent with Nathan. I used Nathan as a example just to show you never know who can bomb at the Olympics. And your post about Jason was my point. What about my posts about Malinin?

 

[Karen-W]

If I was on the USFS selection committee and wanted to troll the Fanyus, I would've sent Artur Jr. to 4CCs only if he promised to attempt the 4A in the short, and for the free, just keep on trying to land the 4A for the entire four minutes until he lands a ratified one and snipes Hanyu to become the first man to land a quadruple Axel

Well, that would require Jr to have the TES mins, which he doesn't. But, otherwise, this would be all sorts of amazing and epic to see, lol.

 

[Allskate]

Right now, I’d prefer Tatiana Malinina on the women’s Olympic team than Ilia Malinin on the Mens.

Ha. I think Tatiana would not stand much of a chance against the current crop of Russian girls. And I think that Ilia has a good chance of ultimately having an even better skating career than his mom did. But, yeah, we sure could use some stronger American women skaters on the team.

 

[carriecmu0503]

I feel like you ignored my entire post. I didn’t compare Vincent with Nathan. I used Nathan as a example just to show you never know who can bomb at the Olympics. And your post about Jason was my point. What about my posts about Malinin?

Here are you words: Vincent isn’t the only one who has had bad performances. Nathan has been amazingly consistently high scoring for the past three years but even he faltered at times, twice in 2018.

Sure looks like a Vincent/ Nathan comparison!

 

[VGThuy]

Yes. “Nathan has been amazingly consistently high scoring for the past three years.” You just quoted me. Do me a favor and just ignore my posts since you don’t really read them.

 

[Marco]

Wow I stayed out of FSU for a weekend and this thread happens

Anyways, called it all along that delivering at Nationals isn't going to be enough on its own since Ilia's international scores aren't high enough compared to Jason's and a ChSq was not worth 17 points. It ultimately comes down to whether to value Ilia's 13 points here at Nationals over Jason, or Jason's 17 points advantage in median score. It turns out cancelling JGPF was indeed very damanging to Ilia.

That said, the team of Nathan, Vincent and Jason is perfectly within the criteria set out since the beginning of the season. Strategically though, what a dumb decision this is.

The criteria have Nathan and Vincent on another tier, so that's fine - they qualify (regardless of the latter's poor skating in the free). Between Jason and Ilia though - Jason has been a quality skater all these years and scored high despite not having a quad - and so he almost always maintained his world team position. It's like Michelle retaining her title year after year because Sasha simply couldn't rise to the occasion at Nationals from 2000 to 2005 (esp 2003 onwards). And then there's this year when suddenly someone truly rises to the occasion and outskates Jason to the point that the PCS and GOE advantage can't matter anymore. And they still went with Jason.

Criteria be damned. I would have sent Ilia to both the Olympics and Worlds along with Nathan and Vincent. Even if there is a team event consideration, Ilia beat Jason in both segments here at Nationals so there really isn't much benefit to send Jason over Ilia. Everyone else in the top ten are landing multiple quads and higher tier quads for a couple of years, yet Jason isn't rotating / landing a single one consistently over 8 years. Not the way to go really. It's not even about pissing him off and forcing him to switch countries, but more to do with who USFS seems the best team is, combined with how they plan to develop US men in the years ahead.

Even if there wasn't tiering, I would still send Vincent over Jason because of scoring potential. When you already have a Nathan, always send the one who may rock up and down but has medal potential, instead of someone who can guarantee you a top ten finish but not higher than 5th.

 

[Trillian]

If Jason is used in the TE it will be in the SP because Nathan has decided he doesn't want to do the TE, and it is the only logical reason Jason was named to the team over Ilia.

It’s not the only logical reason. There are multiple arguments in favor of both Jason and Ilia unrelated to the team event that have been rehashed endlessly in this thread, based on the stated selection criteria. Ultimately, neither was going to be a medal favorite, but they’re both skaters who bring something interesting to competitive skating, and they both made a case for the Olympics in different ways. It’s too bad they can’t both compete. But you can disagree with the decision without devaluing Jason’s skating and his competitive accomplishments this season. There is a case to be made for his position on the team whether everyone here likes it or not, and that’s why he was selected.

 

[ks777]

I think once the dust has settled, Ilia will be fine. If he is consistently good, he will have plenty of opportunities to shine including in Milan. He will represent the US at Worlds this year.

I'm not sure why some posters are suggesting it's a good idea for him to throw a temper tantrum and leave the US, miss the Olympics AND 2 years of skating, only to resurface in another country and have to reestablish himself in a new environment w. new coaches, etc. Really smart move

You do realize that he could stay in the US with the same coach and represent another country?

 

[kwanfan1818]

It's not like Jason Brown has ever had a coach that is in USFS' favor or has ever skated for a USFS powerhouse skating club.

As far as skating for a Federation that doesn't favor you -- sending you to a senior championship you could win, if you hit apparently means nothing -- Piseev said back in the 00's that Russian women were complete sh!t. Leonova could have packed her bags and quit or, maybe, competed for a no-money, no politiks Fed, but, instead, she went out and won Jr. Worlds and a few years later a Worlds silver medal.

 

[becca]

It’s not the only logical reason. There are multiple arguments in favor of both Jason and Ilia unrelated to the team event that have been rehashed endlessly in this thread, based on the stated selection criteria. Ultimately, neither was going to be a medal favorite, but they’re both skaters who bring something interesting to competitive skating, and they both made a case for the Olympics in different ways. It’s too bad they can’t both compete. But you can disagree with the decision without devaluing Jason’s skating and his competitive accomplishments this season. There is a case to be made for his position on the team whether everyone here likes it or not, and that’s why he was selected.

but the problem here is that Ilia and Jason were not given the same competitive opportunities this season.

I didn’t have a problem with Ashley over Mirai. I mean Ashley medaled at the Grand Prix Final. She was fourth and fifth at worlds she had a legit shot at an Olympic medal. Mirai and Ross had opportunities to compete at senior Grand Prix and develop a body of work.

Jason season best is 9th. I believe. He is a beautiful skater and yes he is good for a medal at the senior Grand Prix. But he has never even won a Senior Grand Prix a senior Grand Prix final medal or a worlds medal.

He is a top 7-10 skater.

I think it’s really problematic to say a skater who repeatedly finished around 7th in the world has an automatic lock on a Major team spot even if a new skater shows dalazzing top notch content.

That is not logical IMO and it’s bad for the sport. At some point this skater has had multiple opportunities to show they can be a world medalist and they haven’t had to be taken into account too.

 

[kwanfan1818]

but the problem here is that Ilia and Jason were not given the same competitive opportunities this season.

Really? Have you actually read the criteria which shows that a score at a GP=score at Cranberry or a CS as far as the calculations and groupings are concerned?

Malinin could have skated in seniors. He could have been a host pick to SA. He could have jumped quads in the SP. He could have racked up scores that were higher than Brown's.

He chose to skate in juniors and all of the limitations and disadvantages of skating in juniors, when it came to the Olympic selection criteria.

 

[becca]

Really? Have you actually read the criteria which shows that a score at a GP=score at Cranberry or a CS as far as the calculations and groupings are concerned?

Malinin could have skated in seniors. He could have been a host pick to SA. He could have jumped quads in the SP. He could have racked up scores that were higher than Brown's.

He chose to skate in juniors and all of the limitations and disadvantages of skating in juniors, when it came to the Olympic selection criteria.

How do you know he was offered a host pick. And one shacky Skate overthrows the fact that the kid qualified first in the JGPF?

He was not guaranteed a host pick or a second pick to make the senior Grand Prix final.

Once again you need senior competitions to make the senior Grand Prix.

I am sorry consistently placing 7th at worlds shouldn’t give you a forever lock on major competitions.

It’s not like Ilia landed one squeaky quad and squeaked into 2nd. He landed 6.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Once again you need senior competitions to make the senior Grand Prix.

No you don't. There is no weighting in the selection criteria.

And you certainly can't get a senior host spot if you decide to skate JGP, because there's a rule against competing in JGP and GP.

 

[becca]

No you don't. There is no weighting in the selection criteria.

And you certainly can't get a senior host spot if you decide to skate JGP, because there's a rule against competing in JGP and GP.

And you know a host spot was guaranteed for him if he didn’t.

Once again Jason’s body of work out him in the same category as a new senior. Why should being 7th in the world guarantee spots forevermore?

Jason’s body of work repeatedly showed he was not competitive for a world and Olympic medal.

Once again if Illias skate isnt enough here and the huge tech difference between him and Jason.

What will be be enough for a new skater to knock of a skater who is top 7-10 in the world?

New skaters are not going to have a body of work they tend to get it after competiting. They are new.

But given them opportunities has gone very well for USFSA in the past.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And you know a host spot was guaranteed for him if he didn’t.

And it wouldn't have mattered, because a GP score is the same as Cranberry or a CS in the factoring. But, apparently, not in becca-land.