U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[Karen-W]

Kudos to everyone who called it all fall, in various discussions, about the juniors really not having much of a shot at getting on the team. Sucks for them, especially since the p**demic took away their chances at building up much of a competitive resume. Realistically, had we had a junior season last year, Ilia would probably have done well enough to have earned the WS points necessary to move up to the Sr GP this season instead of staying down in junior another season. What could have been had he been able to skate senior all fall instead of just one Challenger to get the mins?

 

[misskarne]

I'm absolutely elated for Jason. But I am sad for Ilia; he's going to be an absolute superstar, I can tell, and I hope he can bounce back from this and develop into the leader of the US men that I know he can be.

Most of all, the USFS absolutely fecked up with their "tiers" or phases or priorities. And I'll bet they realised it the second Zhou started screwing up today. They were inflexible and it bit them. They backed themselves into a corner.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

USFS is just inconsistent. They spent 3 years shoving Alysa Liu down everyone's throats because she supposedly had the big jumps. Malinin actually has the goods. Why not push him? I honestly don't get it.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Why not push him?

Repeat after me: No matter how good he is, he's not a Lady.

 

[skateboy]

This has been a very stressful day for FS fans. No matter what, one of three men was going to end up heartbroken.

At the end of the day, not going to the Olympics won't be the end of the world for Ilia, he's got years ahead to establish himself. It WOULD have been the end of the world for Vincent or Jason, had either one of them been left off the team. And both of these guys have proven themselves internationally, over and over again.

Now let's get all of those skaters out of Nashville pronto, free of YKW, so that they can get home and start preparing for the big games! And safe travels to all of our FSU colleagues making their way home.

 

[vesperholly]

If it was a lifetime achievement event, then Michelle would have won over Tara, Sara Hughes probably never would have gotten near the podium, Patrick Chan would have won in Sochi, Torvill/Dean would have won in Lillehammer ...

I meant just being named to the team and competing. Winning is a whole 'nother story and I won't argue that part - once you're there, it's a competition.

 

[Yuri]

Clearly the Body of Work must be reworked by USFS if it's going to prevent someone moving up from Juniors the opportunity to make the Olympics unless they finish first. I am in complete shock that Ilia Malinin didn't make team, I figured the difficult decision would be the artistry of Jason Brown vs. the multiple quad potential (and World Bronze) of the rejuvenated Vincent Zhou. Jason simply has no shot at a top six finish at the Olympics, whereas Ilia easily could do so by replicating his US Nationals performance.

 

[canbelto]

USFS is just inconsistent. They spent 3 years shoving Alysa Liu down everyone's throats because she supposedly had the big jumps. Malinin actually has the goods. Why not push him? I honestly don't get it.

They just decided Alysa Liu was super-promising. It's not like the rest of the ladies are real podium threats. With the men they have too many medal contenders and Nathan Chen so are determined to go with tried-and-true. It kind of reminds me of how USAG used the "but we have Simone" strategy for an entire quad and it was going swimmingly until Simone got the twisties.

 

[Karen-W]

Most of all, the USFS absolutely fecked up with their "tiers" or phases or priorities. And I'll bet they realised it the second Zhou started screwing up today. They were inflexible and it bit them. They backed themselves into a corner.

Well, to be fair, both Brown and Zhou screwed it up today. Jason left points on the table and could have made it a lot closer of a finish to Malinin. And Zhou... He really fecked it up.

What is problematic, IMO, and this isn't just for the Men but also for the Women is that Group 2 ranking and how you qualify into it. Alysa wouldn't have been in Group 2 without that one outlier result from Lombardia Trophy. Vincent was, solidly, in Group 2, no matter how you slice it. But, what I could see is them eliminating the "Score once equal to Worlds Top 3" as an option for Group 2 and changing the Nats placement to Top 3 rather than Top 5.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Most of all, the USFS absolutely fecked up with their "tiers" or phases or priorities. And I'll bet they realised it the second Zhou started screwing up today. They were inflexible and it bit them. They backed themselves into a corner.

But not the second when Jason started screwing up? Again Vincent was solidly in 2nd tier. The only real choice US Figure Skating had by nationals was between Ilia and Jason. No matter how much you want that to go away it's how it worked out. They chose Jason over Ilia.

Congrats to Ilia on outskating two really good team members this year and to a hopefully great future. Be proud little one.

 

[Allskate]

USFS is just inconsistent. They spent 3 years shoving Alysa Liu down everyone's throats because she supposedly had the big jumps. Malinin actually has the goods. Why not push him? I honestly don't get it.

It's not the same thing. Alysa has multiple nationals titles and better experience than Ilia and she has landed the triple axels in competition. Also, who is it that has great results and experience in the women's field that you would put on the team in place of Alyssa?

We have no idea how these young skaters who haven't been on the senior high profile world stage are going to perform. They could be great. They could crumble. Tara herself did not do well at her first senior Worlds, but others do.

Is Ilia really talking publicly about his consideration of competing for another country? That doesn't seem like the wisest thing to do. He's a cute kid with an incredibly bright future. If he wants to maximize sponsors and endorsements in the future, he should be making public comments about what an honor it is to skate for his country.

 

[misskarne]

Well, to be fair, both Brown and Zhou screwed it up today. Jason left points on the table and could have made it a lot closer of a finish to Malinin. And Zhou... He really fecked it up.

But not the second when Jason started screwing up? Again Vincent was solidly in 2nd tier. The only real choice US Figure Skating had by nationals was between Ilia and Jason. No matter how much you want that to go away it's how it worked out. They chose Jason over Ilia.

But that's my point. Jason was tier 3, so him fecking up gave USFS wiggle room - except he didn't keep fecking up, he regained composure and delivered. But Zhou being in tier 2 gave them NO wiggle room for HIM fecking up - and as usual for him, once he made one error he snowballed. They boxed themselves in with the tiers. If they hadn't had those, they could have given themselves more breathing room.

 

[topaz]

I'm fine with the decision. It would be good experience for Ilia, but he ain't getting the pcs scores he received at Nationals at the Olympics games. It's about the TE for me. Jason can do the short and get 90+. The US men's in the TE are competing against Japan for #1 placement. I feel Jason can beat Kolyada, Matteo and Keegan in the SP and get the second in the TE. US has a real shot at the Gold in the TE.

I understand that Ilia could use this for the experience, but he can go to junior and senior worlds.

 

[once_upon]

I still believe that one or more of our Olympics team members will get c0vid before the Olympics or after arrival in Beijing. Can we send the alternates with the team so they will meet the isolation requirements?

I think the teams/skaters at most risk (% that will get c0vid):

Jason - I'd put that at 75-80% spending that much time confined in a small space with someone who has c0vid

Ashley and Timothy-30-40% as their training mate has c0vid, but they are close to the end of the 5-7 day exposure period

Alexa and Brandon - Brandon should be on the down slope, but Alexa has been exposed through Brandon and Jenni/Todd. Chris has been exposed by Jenni/Todd, so this will be a very complicated contact tracing. Crap shoot %, but I could put it at 50%

Mariah and Karen: 30-40% I don't remember who shared ice time with Alysa and/or Amber.

Bubble wrap, put in negative air flow isolation Stat- all dance teams, Nathan and Vincent.

 

[VGThuy]

Once again a new senior especially in men’s is never going to have body of work

Vincent was a new senior and he got the body of work. Polina was as well. Ilia was just unlucky he was up against Chen, Zhou, and Brown who score well internationally.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

If they hadn't had those, they could have given themselves more breathing room.

You mean if they hadn't set specific criteria in advance for all to know what they had to do? How is that better for the athletes? I don't think their criteria is perfect but they are getting miles and miles better than just randomly naming people to the team like you seem to want them to do to support Jason going. I don't want them to get more vague. I want them to continue the direction they are in selecting the Olympic and World teams.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm absolutely elated for Jason. But I am sad for Ilia; he's going to be an absolute superstar, I can tell, and I hope he can bounce back from this and develop into the leader of the US men that I know he can be.

Most of all, the USFS absolutely fecked up with their "tiers" or phases or priorities. And I'll bet they realised it the second Zhou started screwing up today. They were inflexible and it bit them. They backed themselves into a corner.

Oh whatever, you win skate America over the reigning world champion, the reigning Olympic silver medalist and fellow Olympic medal contender, and have your lowest fall score be similar to the third ranked man’s average scores all fall and you’d be put on the team too.

 

[Karen-W]

It's not the same thing. Alysa has multiple nationals titles and better experience than Ilia and she has landed the triple axels in competition. Also, who is it that has great results and experience in the women's field that you would put on the team in place of Alyssa?

We have no idea how these young skaters who haven't been on the senior high profile world stage are going to perform. They could be great. They could crumble. Tara herself did not do well at her first senior Worlds, but others do.

Is Ilia really talking publicly about his consideration of competing for another country? That doesn't seem like the wisest thing to do. He's a cute kid with an incredibly bright future. If he wants to maximize sponsors and endorsements in the future, he should be making public comments about what an honor it is to skate for his country.

1) Ilia has missed the last two Nationals due to injury - he DID finish 5th at the mostly domestic 2020 SkAm though.

2) So, what exactly are Ilia's quads that he's currently landing with far more consistency in competitions in comparison to the non-existent triple axels Alysa's attempting to land this season?

3) The only people talking about Ilia switching countries are people who think that is the solution to him being royally screwed by the USFS by not being named to the Olympic team. While I think he has been royally screwed, I'm not nutty enough to think that he or his family are even entertaining the notion of him switching countries. He has received a LOT of support already in his career from the USFS and he will continue to receive that support. And, for what it's worth, I will not be at all surprised if he ends at Worlds this March, in addition to Jr Worlds.

 

[becca]

.

The ISU does not get involved with the way that the Federations choose their skaters. The IOC can, if the nominating Federations don't follow their published selection procedures, but exactly how does choosing in Group 3 for the final spot violate the USFS rules?

The message USFS sends is that anybody coming from Juniors in an Olympic year has no chance at Olympics unless they win the Nationals.
I do not like this- there are never

Both (men and ladies) 1st alternates are first year seniors. I bet one skates in Behjing.

Vincent was a new senior and he got the body of work. Polina was as well. Ilia was just unlucky he was up against Chen, Zhou, and Brown who score well internationally.

Vincent did not have much of a body of work. Furthemore Ilia had no opportunity to skate juniors last year.

This is unfair.

 

[OnyxRose81]

But not the second when Jason started screwing up? Again Vincent was solidly in 2nd tier. The only real choice US Figure Skating had by nationals was between Ilia and Jason. No matter how much you want that to go away it's how it worked out. They chose Jason over Ilia.

Congrats to Ilia on outskating two really good team members this year and to a hopefully great future. Be proud little one.

ITA. Despite what people want to believe, it was Jason v. Malinin, not Zhou v. Malinin. Vincent was always on that team, even with the mess ups.

I wish Ilia would have been chosen but it is what it is.

 

[carriecmu0503]

302 - 289 = 13. Not 20.

Oh pardon me. That means the difference was tiny and totally worth ignoring. Seriously, 13 points is still a LOT!

 

[dinakt]

302 - 289 = 13. Not 20.

... but both Jason and Vincent were gifted their scores... Both had severe UR that were not counted. I not not hating on them- I love them, especially Jason, but the gap should have been bigger.

Ilia did have a senior international this season and he had a disappointing showing there. I would guess that was very much a part of the conversation for the selection committee. Ilia was very much given a chance to compete, and he didn’t do as much as he needed to do. This is not about Jason’s entire career, it’s about the fact that he was decidedly more competitive against tougher fields internationally this season. Ilia was amazing at nationals and I hope he has a bright future, but Jason is the one who actually demonstrated that he can compete with the top skaters in the world this season.

I guess I just disagree that early season results should have an equal weight to a result right before a major competition. Everybody has a different rhythm while preparing and I think athletes should be allowed to peak at major events. Some consistency is necessary, of course, but history is full of athletes who bombed in the first half of the season and were amazing for the second half. And vise versa. If an athlete who peaks by Olympics is not given a chance to go because of an early season result, I consider it a strategical mistake (and unfair to boot). But I am not USFS, and will loudly cheer for everybody at the Olympics and hope they do their best.

 

[VGThuy]

Vincent did not have much of a body of work. Furthemore Ilia had no opportunity to skate juniors last year.

This is unfair.

Zhou only had junior worlds from the previous season in his favor and didn’t have a senior worlds. During the fall, he scored comparably to Adam and Jason’s scores and scored ahead of Miner. That was his body of work. Ilia had the misfortune of competing against men who had respectable to excellent international scores and failing to meet them even if you added like thirty points to one junior event and he scored well below the others in his one senior event. Even during his best JGP event, where juniors are only missing about five points in BV, he wasn’t close to Vincent. Arguably he was close to Jason but he wasn’t that much of a blow out and it was just one competition out of three internationals they had to compare.

 

[orbitz]

At the end of the day, not going to the Olympics won't be the end of the world for Ilia, he's got years ahead to establish himself. It WOULD have been the end of the world for Vincent or Jason, had either one of them been left off the team. And both of these guys have proven themselves internationally, over and over again.

It's not a guarantee that Ilia will be around or still be the hot shot skater when 2026 rolls around. Look at someone like Tiffany Chin in 84, for example. Granted the burnout issue usually occurs more among women skaters than men, but Ilia could, God forbid, have a serious injury that derail his 2026 Olympic dream, or some new upstart could suddenly pop up and outshine him. Jason and Vincent have already been to an Olympic. I don't think not making the team would have "been the end of the world" for either of them. I don't think it'll be the end of the world for Ilia either, but he put together two of the strongest performances among the men at this competition and should've been rewarded accordingly.

 

[becca]

Zhou only had junior worlds from the previous season in his favor and didn’t have a senior worlds. During the fall, he scored comparably to Adam and Jason’s scores and scored ahead of Miner. That was his body of work. Ilia had the misfortune of competing against men who had respectable to excellent international scores and failing to meet them even if you added like thirty points to one junior event and he scored well below the others in his one senior event. Even during his best JGP event, where juniors are only missing about five points in BV, he wasn’t close to Vincent. Arguably he was close to Jason but he wasn’t that much of a blow out and it was just one competition out of three internationals they had to compare.

If he can do skate for Russia he should clearly the US doesn’t care about Olympic medals

 

[VGThuy]

I guess people really didn’t pay attention the selection criteria that had been around since before the season started.

 

[Karen-W]

I still believe that one or more of our Olympics team members will get c0vid before the Olympics or after arrival in Beijing. Can we send the alternates with the team so they will meet the isolation requirements?

I think the teams/skaters at most risk (% that will get c0vid):

Jason - I'd put that at 75-80% spending that much time confined in a small space with someone who has c0vid

Ashley and Timothy-30-40% as their training mate has c0vid, but they are close to the end of the 5-7 day exposure period

Alexa and Brandon - Brandon should be on the down slope, but Alexa has been exposed through Brandon and Jenni/Todd. Chris has been exposed by Jenni/Todd, so this will be a very complicated contact tracing. Crap shoot %, but I could put it at 50%

Mariah and Karen: 30-40% I don't remember who shared ice time with Alysa and/or Amber.

Bubble wrap, put in negative air flow isolation Stat- all dance teams, Nathan and Vincent.

Alysa trains at the World Arena which is where Karen and Vincent also train and they're essentially working with the same folks - Alysa's main coach, Drew Meekins, choreographed Karen's new SP, and Karen & Vincent both work with Tammy G & Tom Z.

Mariah & Nathan both train at Great Parks, which is where the Meno/Sand pairs teams train.

And then there's the IAM dance teams - which is just one bad exposure away from wiping out about half the Olympic dance team entries as has been pointed out in the Dance Hall thread.

 

[topaz]

Vincent did not have much of a body of work. Furthemore Ilia had no opportunity to skate juniors last year.

This is unfair.

Vincent's BoW:
Skate America - 1st
Nebelhorn 1st
NHK - 2nd
GPF finalist
2019 Worlds - Bronze
2019 4cc - Bronze

I'm not the biggest fan of Zhou, but he's earned his stripes.

 

[Wyliefan]

In other news, Tomoki confirms that C19 was what kept him home. But he's feeling fine now. https://www.instagram.com/p/CYh1EaLuilq/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

[Allskate]

3) The only people talking about Ilia switching countries are people who think that is the solution to him being royally screwed by the USFS by not being named to the Olympic team. While I think he has been royally screwed, I'm not nutty enough to think that he or his family are even entertaining the notion of him switching countries. He has received a LOT of support already in his career from the USFS and he will continue to receive that support. And, for what it's worth, I will not be at all surprised if he ends at Worlds this March, in addition to Jr Worlds.

Someone posted above that there was an interview with Ilia about country shopping. If true, I don't think that it's wise. And, again, who is the experienced and consistent well-performing woman you think was the person who should have been put on the Olympic team in place of Alyssa? You haven't said. Because there isn't one.