TanithandBenFan
Author of the Ice and Edge Series
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Chelsea posted a get well gift from Great Park Ice so I think she’s still recovering.
That's an understatement!Congratulations to Lu/Mitrofanov on their first big international win! (They should have been first in the LP as well. )
If USFS hoped this competition would clarify the pecking order going into Nationals ... well ... things didn't exactly go to plan.
Group 1 Highest Priority | Group 2 | Group 3 | Group 4 Lowest Priority | |
CRITERIA FOR 2022 US CHAMPIONSHIPS | Placed in the top 3 AND | Placed in the top 5 AND | Placed in the top 3 OR | Placed in the top 5 OR |
CRITERIA FOR 2021 INTERNATIONAL SCORES * | Consistently scored equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds P – 217.63 | Consistently scored equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds P – 201.18 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds | Consistently scored equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds P – 184.41 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds | Consistently scored equal to Top 15 at 2021 Worlds P – 157.29 OR Scored once equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds |
Well, as long as K/F are in the top 2, then I'm sure that's what will happen. If not... That's when the Group priority will determine the team.They should just take the top 2 at nationals and be done with it.
They should just take the top 2 at nationals and be done with it.
K/F are clearly ahead of the rest of the teams if you look at their median scores. I don't have a problem with K/F being on the Olympic team or being Group 2 already, heading into Nats. I just with that 2-3 of the other teams had managed to also qualify into Group 2 prior to Nationals.I have never agreed with anything more in my life. These pairs have done absolutely nothing to justify deviating from the Nats rankings this season. I mean perhaps some tinkering would happen if the Mokhov siblings won Nationals with Cooke/Bearinger winning silver. But otherwise, yea. All of our top 4 have been scoring in the 180-205 range with no real consistent "top team" here. Would be interesting to average them though...
ETA- counting only GP and challenger events. Left out Autumn Classic for CG/L since it was early season and they already had 3 better scores afterwards.
Knierim/Frazier= 186, 201, 202 = 589/3
196 average
Cain-Gribble/LeDuc= 193, 189, 202= 584/3
194 average
Calalang/Johnson= 196, 197, 180= 573/3
191 average
Lu/Mitrofanov = 195, 190, 186 = 571/3
190 average
I said this to someone. While I think that K/F are pretty much locks for the Olympics. If they don’t win Nationals, I think they are not locks for the TE and since that’s their only chance for a medal, they better figure out what’s going on…quick!Well, leaving aside that average score is NOT part of the Selection Criteria, your averages are skewed on the low side because you're rounding down - which isn't really right since the scoring system goes out to the tenth.
K/F = 591.35/3 = 197.12
C-G/L = 585.69/3 = 195.23
C/J had 3 CS (Finlandia - which you're counting for C-G/L, Warsaw & Golden Spin) plus SkAm = 766.65/4 = 191.66
L/M = 571.51/3 = 190.50
I wouldn't have a problem with the USFS excluding Cranberry, John Nicks or ACI (since it was only made a Challenger at the last minute so that Canada could still maintain the Challenger status for Dance and Women when they didn't have enough non-Canadian men entered), but, like I said in the Golden Spin FS discussion, discounting those events doesn't actually change the Groups into which each team have qualified. K/F's median score is still equal to Worlds Top 5, and the other three still have a median score that is equal to Worlds Top 10.
Now, what I WILL say is that, assuming K/F finish 2nd at Nationals to any of these 3 teams, I would use the National Champs in the TE, regardless of the fact that K/F are in Group 2. There should be some reward for the National Champs, as closely matched as these teams really are.
Yes that’s what I’ve been saying since the Grand Prix. They had zero deductions in both of their programs again. Just like in both of their competitions at the Grand Prix. What happened to Alex and Brandon? I am away skiing and I forgot to watch the rest of the competition.So Lu/Mitrofanov just won gold at golden spin and scored 15 points higher than Calalang/Johnson and 9 points higher than Knierim/Frazier. I feel like my desire to give them one of the two Olympic spots is even more valid now.
ETA: forgot about the last team so it will be either gold or silver with the other two not on the podium.
ETA#2: yeah they won.
I see the overscoring of Alexa Knierim teams but I see no evidence of American panels underscoring CG/L, like at all, looking at their detailed results in their career. In fact I see scores at two nationals that are a good bit higher than they would get internationally. I always got the impression they were one of the favored teams when they started but the hype kind of tempered in the past two seasons going into this one.Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I think C-G/L have built their case well. Although they've had errors throughout the season, they've never really imploded yet. In addition they've shown the international judges appreciate them and their scores are trending upwards as opposed to those of the other top US teams.
What worries me is that for whatever reason the US judges seem to underscore them in comparison to international judges - which is a rarity. The US judges also seem to overscore K/F compared to what the international judges see. Going by international panels, all three of the top teams are neck and neck; going by US panels K/F are 10+ points ahead. TBH I wonder if USFS would do better to align their favorites with the favorites of international judges.
Well, by the official selection criteria as stated by the USFSA, Knierim/Frazier will be in group 2 as long as they are top 5 at Nationals. None of the other US pairs have the international scores to be group 2. Group 3 is the best they can do.I see the overscoring of Alexa Knierim teams but I see no evidence of American panels underscoring CG/L, like at all, looking at their detailed results in their career. In fact I see scores at two nationals that are a good bit higher than they would get internationally. I always got the impression they were one of the favored teams when they started but the hype kind of tempered in the past two seasons going into this one.
I honestly think they should just send whoever places in the top two at nationals and be done with it, but if they want to use BOW to help say K/F, they better not go crazy with it like if K/F totally bomb and every other team skates well but they are put on the team anyway.
I thought the groups were order of priority, not a commitment. Like those in the highest groups among the pool are given highest priority for consideration but nothing says they have to pick a team automatically who is in a higher group, especially if there are multiple contenders behind them who missed out on the higher group but aren’t really that far behind the group in the highest group in terms of raw points. Like Vincent barely missed group 2 by a few points but I doubt it really matters now. They just have the strongest argument when it comes to team selections.Well, by the official selection criteria as stated by the USFSA, Knierim/Frazier will be in group 2 as long as they are top 5 at Nationals. None of the other US pairs have the international scores to be group 2. Group 3 is the best they can do.
So if K/F are top 5 at Nats, the only way not to send them is to break their own selection rules.
I honestly think they should just send whoever places in the top two at nationals and be done with it, but if they want to use BOW to help say K/F, they better not go crazy with it like if K/F totally bomb and every other team skates well but they are put on the team anyway.
^^^This. As disappointed as I am with K/F overall this season - their programs aren't memorable or particularly compelling, they haven't managed to skate cleanly in any competition and their twist seems to be worse than last season - they have still man, aged to put up scores that are equal to Top 5 at Worlds in all but one competition (this most recent one). I don't have a problem with them being in Group 2 and essentially guaranteed one of the Olympic spots already going into Nationals - the chance of them finishing 5th or lower is about 1%, IMO. The highest score any other US Pairs team outside the top 4 is Chan/Howe's 182.44 from Cranberry and that's still 4 points lower than K/F's Golden Spin score. Next closest are Liu/O'Shea with 177.45 at John Nicks and 175.40 at SkAm and, right now, they aren't even back on the ice so I'm not holding my breath that they'll be at Nationals.Well, by the official selection criteria as stated by the USFSA, Knierim/Frazier will be in group 2 as long as they are top 5 at Nationals. None of the other US pairs have the international scores to be group 2. Group 3 is the best they can do.
So if K/F are top 5 at Nats, the only way not to send them is to break their own selection rules.
No, the Group placements are absolutely a commitment. From the Selection Criteria document:I thought the groups were order of priority, not a commitment. Like those in the highest groups among the pool are given highest priority for consideration but nothing says they have to pick a team automatically who is in a higher group, especially if there are multiple contenders behind them who missed out on the higher group but aren’t really that far behind the group in the highest group in terms of raw points. Like Vincent barely missed group 2 by a few points but I doubt it really matters now. They just have the strongest argument when it comes to team selections.
The names of the athletes/teams being considered from the 2022 Toyota U.S. Figure Skating Championships and by petition will be entered into the pool of athletes listed in precedence by the four priority groups which is based on their body of work in terms of their competitiveness, consistency and trending scores from the identified events (1.2.1.) for consideration for the 2022 U.S. Olympic Team.
...
The IC Discipline Subcommittees will nominate the athletes/teams in a ranked order based on the discussion of the criteria above at the identified events (1.2.1.). Once the IC Discipline Subcommittees have identified the slate of athletes for nomination (including replacement athletes/teams) in a ranked order to the 2022 U.S. Olympic Team, the nomination of the athletes will be forwarded to the USOPC for final approval.
There’s a lot discussion about Liu and I’ve seen posts just wanting to go with the top 3 finishers at nationals there but the other women haven’t been giving us as much as the pairs and that’s saying something. I feel like all the discussion about Vincent not being in the top 2 men has all but died down now that we see how he’s done compared to the other men, but it took a lot of hard work and underperforming after tons of hype from the other men to get to that point. I’m sure there is a poster holding out hope he’ll still miss out to Malinin or something.^^^This. As disappointed as I am with K/F overall this season - their programs aren't memorable or particularly compelling, they haven't managed to skate cleanly in any competition and their twist seems to be worse than last season - they have still man, aged to put up scores that are equal to Top 5 at Worlds in all but one competition (this most recent one). I don't have a problem with them being in Group 2 and essentially guaranteed one of the Olympic spots already going into Nationals - the chance of them finishing 5th or lower is about 1%, IMO. The highest score any other US Pairs team outside the top 4 is Chan/Howe's 182.44 from Cranberry and that's still 4 points lower than K/F's Golden Spin score. Next closest are Liu/O'Shea with 177.45 at John Nicks and 175.40 at SkAm and, right now, they aren't even back on the ice so I'm not holding my breath that they'll be at Nationals.
No, the Group placements are absolutely a commitment. From the Selection Criteria document:
Mind, the Group placements are not fully and finally complete until after Nationals because skaters/teams in Groups 1 & 2 must finish Top 3/Top 5 respectively, and skaters who are not qualified into Groups based on their International scores can still qualify into Groups 3 & 4 with Top 3/Top 5 finishes respectively. But, like I said above, with regard to K/F, for all intents and purposes, they are in Group 2 because the likelihood of them finishing 6th or lower is next to nil.
Honestly, I don't really get the angst over K/F (and Vincent in the Men) being solidly in Group 2. There's less criticism of Liu being in the same Group on the Women's side even though her season's scores would put her in Group 3 if Lombardia was discounted as a massive outlier. K/F and Vincent have both demonstrated, over the course of the season, like H/D and C/B in Dance, a scoring level that is consistent with Top 5 in the World. They've earned that placement and we should be happy they are, for the most part, skating at that level.
Well, that's true. But that still doesn't explain the angst over Vincent - it isn't as though the Men have been skating up to their capabilities either (I'm looking at you Tomoki & Camden), lol.There’s a lot discussion about Liu and I’ve seen posts just wanting to go with the top 3 finishers at nationals there but the other women haven’t been giving us as much as the pairs and that’s saying something.
I suppose I should've said it differently - it's less the actual score and more where USFS judges place them in relation to other teams. Like I said, they're pretty clearly in the mix for being the top or a top 2 US team, but USFS seems to see them as a perpetual #3-4 (outside of their first season or two).I see the overscoring of Alexa Knierim teams but I see no evidence of American panels underscoring CG/L, like at all, looking at their detailed results in their career. In fact I see scores at two nationals that are a good bit higher than they would get internationally. I always got the impression they were one of the favored teams when they started but the hype kind of tempered in the past two seasons going into this one.
I honestly think they should just send whoever places in the top two at nationals and be done with it, but if they want to use BOW to help say K/F, they better not go crazy with it like if K/F totally bomb and every other team skates well but they are put on the team anyway.
I almost think a little drama wouldn't hurt. They're clearly hard workers. They just tick off the elements as they go, but they need a little more oomph, a little more speed, power? skate bigger? Something to take them to the next level.Something that strikes me about L/M is the lack of drama. Yes, they fall once in a while, but they are the only top US team I can thin of that you don't hold your breath waiting for a mistake on that one element. There's a methodology that works
I agree they had 1 bad competition I mean it happens. Some people are like really ridiculous over 1 competition they scored under 200. I get it, this was another opportunity for them to be at the top of there game. However they had a rough long program and They have had strong ones through out the season. Nationals is a few weeks away so it certainly will be an exciting event.^^^This. As disappointed as I am with K/F overall this season - their programs aren't memorable or particularly compelling, they haven't managed to skate cleanly in any competition and their twist seems to be worse than last season - they have still man, aged to put up scores that are equal to Top 5 at Worlds in all but one competition (this most recent one). I don't have a problem with them being in Group 2 and essentially guaranteed one of the Olympic spots already going into Nationals - the chance of them finishing 5th or lower is about 1%, IMO. The highest score any other US Pairs team outside the top 4 is Chan/Howe's 182.44 from Cranberry and that's still 4 points lower than K/F's Golden Spin score. Next closest are Liu/O'Shea with 177.45 at John Nicks and 175.40 at SkAm and, right now, they aren't even back on the ice so I'm not holding my breath that they'll be at Nationals.
No, the Group placements are absolutely a commitment. From the Selection Criteria document:
Mind, the Group placements are not fully and finally complete until after Nationals because skaters/teams in Groups 1 & 2 must finish Top 3/Top 5 respectively, and skaters who are not qualified into Groups based on their International scores can still qualify into Groups 3 & 4 with Top 3/Top 5 finishes respectively. But, like I said above, with regard to K/F, for all intents and purposes, they are in Group 2 because the likelihood of them finishing 6th or lower is next to nil.
Honestly, I don't really get the angst over K/F (and Vincent in the Men) being solidly in Group 2. There's less criticism of Liu being in the same Group on the Women's side even though her season's scores would put her in Group 3 if Lombardia was discounted as a massive outlier. K/F and Vincent have both demonstrated, over the course of the season, like H/D and C/B in Dance, a scoring level that is consistent with Top 5 in the World. They've earned that placement and we should be happy they are, for the most part, skating at that level.
They need more PCS. But, what I meant was drama over an element. You can smell the fear on Jessica when she sets up for a SBS jump and the heartbreak afterwards. Alexa and Ash to some extent do the same thing. Audrey just gets up and goesI almost think a little drama wouldn't hurt. They're clearly hard workers. They just tick off the elements as they go, but they need a little more oomph, a little more speed, power? skate bigger? Something to take them to the next level.
In the past their lifts have made me hold my breath, but knock on wood it seems like they’ve ironed out all the issues that caused so many aborted lifts.Something that strikes me about L/M is the lack of drama. Yes, they fall once in a while, but they are the only top US team I can thin of that you don't hold your breath waiting for a mistake on that one element. There's a methodology that works