Decisions of the ISU Council: Stockholm Worlds (March 22-28) still on; Synchro Worlds cancelled; 2021 Grand Prix schedule/Beijing test event announced

[Theatregirl1122]

That’s not my truth, and I painstakingly went over why I feel the way I do, so don’t put words in my mouth. I’d feel the same way even if no Americans were affected, as I believe in making exceptions to extraordinary circumstances that meets the original intent of the ISU. They didn’t intend the TES qualification procedures to be as harsh as some are arguing it should be.

Agreed. During 2020, many of us watched Dasa Grm try and try to get her TES minimums after the goalposts unfairly shifted on her and were frustrated that she was in that situation and rooting for her to get the minimums (which is why I think it’s funny to say we wouldn’t care if it was her, since so many of us did).

That was an unfair situation for her (which didn’t end up mattering), but over that year, skaters had a full slate of competitions to earn minimums. The ISU minimums were not put into place with the assumption that skaters, whether Vincent Zhou or Donovan Carrillo, would have to meet a minimum and also have an incredibly reduced pool of chances to do so. It’s not reasonable. The circumstances under which the minimums were introduced do not exist.

And if you’re saying that you can just go to Challenge cup to get minimums, that actually tilts things in favor of skaters like Zhou and K/F who most likely can meet the minimums in one shot. Many of the OES and other smaller federation skaters Sylvia listed are more likely to tend to need a couple of shots at minimums to be successful.

So I don’t understand why people who generally argue against things that disadvantage skaters from smaller federations are acting like this only affects two American skaters and maybe one Canadian. Whatever individual posters on this board care about, the minimums affect many skaters who didn’t get the opportunities they would have in a normal year.

 

[Aceon6]

Well said, @Theatregirl1122 Prior to the crud, most Europeans had multiple opportunities fairly close to home, so going to 2-3 comps was relatively easy. Not so anymore and it’s hard to visualize an org as stodgy as the ISU cobbling a Q series together that meets the need.

 

[allezfred]

That’s not my truth

It might not be be your truth, but it is the truth for a lot of people on here if they are honest. I mean, it’s only natural to be biased towards skaters from your own country and it’s bizarre to see people argue on here that it’s not a thing.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

It might not be be your truth, but it is the truth for a lot of people on here if they are honest. I mean, it’s only natural to be biased towards skaters from your own country and it’s bizarre to see people argue on here that it’s not a thing.

Why does it matter who people on here are biased towards when the reality is that it is affecting skaters from many countries?

 

[allezfred]

Why does it matter who people on here are biased towards when the reality is that it is affecting skaters from many countries?

I guess it doesn’t matter if you think it doesn’t matter.

If exceptions are made for American and Canadian skaters to get the minimums for Worlds, I hope the exceptions are applied to skaters from smaller federations.....

 

[MacMadame]

And who organises and pays for the “invitational” for one American man and a pair and one Canadian lady?

Are we sure that's all that is affected? I have trouble believing that. What about all those kids up from Junior whose only senior international competition was one GP back in the Fall (or nothing) when they had just gotten back on the ice a few weeks prior? I know there have been more competitions in Europe than in the rest of the world but I was under the impression that most of those weren't competitions that the ISU used to let people get TES minimums.

There are more new teams that have formed since last year than K/F as well.

The real truth is that what we want is an exemption for "the skaters we like"

Well, no. That's your opinion, not a truth at all, let alone a "real" truth, whatever that means. For one thing, I don't like most of the skaters we're talking about all that much. I mean, I don't hate them, but I also am not a particular fan of them either.

It might not be be your truth, but it is the truth for a lot of people on here if they are honest. I mean, it’s only natural to be biased towards skaters from your own country and it’s bizarre to see people argue on here that it’s not a thing.

Maybe it's natural for some people but around here there are a lot of people who care more about the skating than what country people are from. I know most of my favorites are from Russia and Japan right now, as an example.

So for me, this is more of a theoretical issue. I also am not a big fan of how the ISU qualifies people and countries for Worlds.

 

[Carolla5501]

That’s not my truth, and I painstakingly went over why I feel the way I do, so don’t put words in my mouth. I’d feel the same way even if no Americans were affected, as I believe in making exceptions to extraordinary circumstances that meets the original intent of the ISU. They didn’t intend the TES qualification procedures to be as harsh as some are arguing it should be.

Since I didn't mention you, quote you or otherwise call you out I think that "perhaps thou doth protest too much"

I figure if you have to defend yourself against something that you "assume" must have been meant for you then perhaps I am speaking your 'truth', otherwise you wouldn't assume you had to claim I put words in your mouth??? LOL !

 

[Sylvia]

Are we sure that's all that is affected?

I listed a number of ladies and 2 men who were entered for 2020 Worlds who now lack at least one minimum score earlier in this thread (and scroll down to @Karen-W's compilation in post #54): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...st-event-announced.108032/page-2#post-5948008

Of course there likely are skaters who have both minimums but may not be able to compete at Worlds this season, even if it goes ahead, due to the expense and/or lack of training time, federation's decision, etc. I don't know how much Julian Yee has been able to train at his mall rink in Malaysia, for example: https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ8_mXaj5FK/

 

[VGThuy]

Since I didn't mention you, quote you or otherwise call you out I think that "perhaps thou doth protest too much"

I figure if you have to defend yourself against something that you "assume" must have been meant for you then perhaps I am speaking your 'truth', otherwise you wouldn't assume you had to claim I put words in your mouth??? LOL !

You spoke in absolutes and used the phrase "the real truth". You didn't specify any individuals but rather painted a broad brush for everyone arguing there should be a reasonable allowance. Of course it includes me. How else do you expect people to respond when you write a post like that using those exact words you've used? The truth is, you made a huge broad-sweeping judgment against many members of this forum and now you're trying to use lazy psycho-analysis to back up from the absolute language you used. Maybe learn to write with more specificity and you won't find yourself in this situation. And be careful. Lazy analysis can work both ways as there are posts that can indicate the reason you don't favor at least one way to provide skaters an opportunity to show their TES minimums given the global health crisis is because of the very skaters who are affected.

I guess it doesn’t matter if you think it doesn’t matter.

If exceptions are made for American and Canadian skaters to get the minimums for Worlds, I hope the exceptions are applied to skaters from smaller federations.....

Of course. Nobody stated otherwise. Again, the idea for me is trying to provide to allow some leeway and an opportunity for skaters to achieve tech minimums when we're in situation where but for the crud, skaters would have had many more opportunities to gain minimums heading to 2021 Worlds. The idea of giving skaters two seasons to get minimums is actually an allowance for skaters to use minimums from a previous season to get to Worlds ON TOP of providing an opportunity for them to get it in the current season. It was not meant to be this extremely punitive thing you and others want to turn it into and then accuse the rest of us of huge national bias. Maybe bias does come into play for some of us, but I've always been a poster who wanted rules to help the most skaters and to increase participation. My posting history reflects that and I stand by my reputation. I don't need to be lectured that I'm a self-serving chauvinist, which these accusations are becoming.

 

[Sylvia]

GBR pair skater (with Chris Boyadji) Zoe Jones posted this message on Jan. 24: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKb2X3Jr4JJ/

This time last year, we were skating at the European Championships, not being able to train properly on the ice in almost a year now it seems like a life time ago
Today I ran a virtual race in the snow for my running club.
How life has changed !!!!!

 

[MacMadame]

I listed a number of ladies and 2 men who were entered for 2020 Worlds who now lack at least one minimum score earlier in this thread (and scroll down to @Karen-W's compilation in post #54): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...st-event-announced.108032/page-2#post-5948008

So it's a lot. And this is just Mens and Ladies. What about Dance and Pairs?

It's been a crap season for many and I don't see the point in punishing skaters even more by being strict about TES minimums.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If exceptions are made for American and Canadian skaters to get the minimums for Worlds, I hope the exceptions are applied to skaters from smaller federations.....

Who is arguing that?

An exception to allow split couple/returning skaters or couples who had the minimums with their prior partner would allow Knierim/Frazier and Muramoto/Takahashi to compete, with or without having to submit a video for review as well. (Both would clearly ace it.) It would do nothing for Daleman or Zhou. But a video review provision would apply to everyone, whether or not they were able to compete in every available event this season and failed each time to make the minimum, or whether they didn't/couldn't compete at all.

Not allowing junior scores, especially from ISU events, to count towards the senior minimums for Pairs and Singles, has never made sense to me: even if there are more prescribed elements, nothing is stopping seniors from doing the same elements for full TES credit, aside from a solo double jump in the SP, and, if anything, the scores for juniors should be suppressed, not bolstered, making it harder to get the minimums, not easier. The judging criteria for GOE is the same, the rules for levels and calling are the same for technical elements, the second half bonus rules are the same, and the scoring calculations are the same.

The only exception this season that should be needed, IMO, should be to allow the junior RD scores to count, even though the RD is different, either with the same score or a calibrated score for juniors, created by comparing the base value/relative difficulty of the junior and senior RD's.

 

[tony]

An exception to allow split couple/returning skaters or couples who had the minimums with their prior partner would allow Knierim/Frazier and Muramoto/Takahashi to compete, with or without having to submit a video for review as well. (Both would clearly ace it.) It would do nothing for Daleman or Zhou. But a video review provision would apply to everyone, whether or not they were able to compete in every available event this season and failed each time to make the minimum, or whether they didn't/couldn't compete at all.

Muramoto and Takahashi were 3rd-best in terms of their own country in NHK and a distant second at Nationals. They aren't going to be part of this either way, and I'd actually worry about them hitting minimums without all-Japanese technical panels and judges as they've had in their two events. They definitely were scored generously. So, as with your example, I do NOT think it's fair to just throw an exception at skaters who had minimums with previous partners. And you're going back to 2018 with Muramoto as it is.

But I still think that the skaters in question should probably book a ticket to Challenge Cup, just as several of the European skaters will surely do in a last-minute effort to qualify. Since the USFS has not indicated anything yet (and I've heard nothing besides the virtual monitoring talks), that makes me believe this idea is being pushed forward.

 

[Karen-W]

So it's a lot. And this is just Mens and Ladies. What about Dance and Pairs?

It's been a crap season for many and I don't see the point in punishing skaters even more by being strict about TES minimums.

Here's the full list that I posted in Post #54, which includes pairs and dance.

Hard look at the #s of skaters who need at least one or both minimums:​

​

Ladies (13) - Craine AUS, Williams BRA, Daleman CAN*, Zingas CYP, Brezinova CZE, Toth HUN*, Lee KOR*, Kuchvalska LAT, Perticheto PHI, Rajicova SVK, Grm SLO, Ostlund SWE, and Algotsson SWE​

​

Men (6) - Hallam GBR, Carrillo MEX, Brain MON, Oddvoll Boe NOR, Caluza PHI, and Zhou USA*​

​

Pairs (6) - Choinard/Mayr AUT, Barquero/Zandron ESP, Broda/Betegon Martin ESP, Crafoord/Crafoord SWE, Herbrikova/Roulet SUI, and Knierim/Frazer USA*​

​

Dance (6) - Kuznetsova/Kolosovskyi AZE, Khomyakova/Shapiro ISR*, Moscheni/Fioretti ITA*, Muramoto/Takahashi JPN*, Zhata/Akalin TUR, and Golubtsova/Belobrov UKR*​

​

The skaters/teams with an * are from countries with other eligible skaters to fill all of the spots allocated. Dare I add in Savchenko/Massot GER based on their IG? ;-)​

Clearly, not all of these skaters are going to be at Worlds, even if they were to make their minimums. Sweden can only send one lady, Spain can only send one pairs team, and M/T are only going to wind up at Worlds if K/K needed to withdraw. And, some of them are pretty unlikely to make the minimums. Most of the dancers are lined up for either Egna or LuMi in the next few weeks. We shall see how this plays out over the next few weeks.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Muramoto and Takahashi were 3rd-best in terms of their own country in NHK and a distant second at Nationals. They aren't going to be part of this either way, and I'd actually worry about them hitting minimums without all-Japanese technical panels and judges as they've had in their two events. They definitely were scored generously. So, as with your example, I do NOT think it's fair to just throw an exception at skaters who had minimums with previous partners. And you're going back to 2018 with Muramoto as it is.

We've been discussing the need to go deeper to the alternates list, in case skaters arrive at the bubble testing positive or test positive after they get there, and have to quarantine.

Maybe they wouldn't make the minimums -- I think your concern is valid -- under an international panel, although Japanese judges, at least, tend to go hard on their own, to the chagrin of many -- but I also suggested that they could also conduct a video performance review as well.

 

[Sylvia]

Knierim is the correct spelling (pet peeve of mine ).

Ekaterina Kuznetsova / Oleksandr Kolosovskyi (AZE) and Polina Khomyakova / Mark Shapiro (ISR) competed junior at Minsk Winter Star in December 2020. ETA that Kolosovskyi skated for ISR last season.

Besides Zhou and K/F, these alternates for Team USA also lack the minimums:
Men's Alternate 2 – Maxim Naumov
Pairs' Alternate 3 – Emily Chan/Spencer Howe
Ice Dance Alternate 3 – Molly Cesanek/Yehor Yehorov
ETA (as pointed out by @toddlj below) Ladies' Alternate 3 – Audrey Shin

 

[MacMadame]

Maybe they wouldn't make the minimums -- I think your concern is valid -

I am going to say something controversial... I don't think all this fuss over minimums is worth it. Sure, some don't want people showing up with no double jumps. (Personally I don't care. If they qualified under the rules of their NGB, I say they should be sent. There are lots of reasons to go to Worlds and sometimes the experience is worth it, not just to the entrant but also to their NGB.) But at their heart TES minimums are arbitrary. In fact, the ISU raises and lowers them all the time in order to ensure the fields they want.

So why not lower them this year when so many couldn't find a safe opportunity to get them?

 

[toddlj]

Knierim is the correct spelling (pet peeve of mine ).

Ekaterina Kuznetsova / Oleksandr Kolosovskyi (AZE) and Polina Khomyakova / Mark Shapiro (ISR) competed junior at Minsk Winter Star in December 2020. ETA that Kolosovskyi skated for ISR last season.

Besides Zhou and K/F, these alternates for Team USA also lack the minimums:
Men's Alternate 2 – Maxim Naumov
Pairs' Alternate 3 – Emily Chan/Spencer Howe
Ice Dance Alternate 3 – Molly Cesanek/Yehor Yehorov

Doesn't Ladies Alternate 3 - Audrey Shin also need those?

 

[vesperholly]

GBR pair skater (with Chris Boyadji) Zoe Jones posted this message on Jan. 24: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKb2X3Jr4JJ/
This time last year, we were skating at the European Championships, not being able to train properly on the ice in almost a year now it seems like a life time ago

I don't understand how Dancing On Ice is training and putting on shows but elite athletes are not able to train in England??

 

[Sylvia]

Doesn't Ladies Alternate 3 - Audrey Shin also need those?

Yes. I was looking at USFS' press release for the other 3 disciplines. Thanks!

 

[toddlj]

Yes. I was looking at USFS' press release for the other 3 disciplines. Thanks!

Of course! I was just thinking about her. Imagine having a "breakout year" in this this moment! She surely would have been sent to some competitions had there been some for her to go to, to get the much-needed competitive experience she will need for consistency.

 

[miffy]

I don't understand how Dancing On Ice is training and putting on shows but elite athletes are not able to train in England??

It has caused a lot of upset but the answer is because it is classed as a tv show, not as skating

ETA: most of the skaters in England had ice from August to the start of November and some had it in December. Sadly Zoe and Chris were not able to train but many rinks were open. I think in Scotland only Dundee was open, and nowhere was in Wales

 

[screech]

I don't really follow US figure skating, so seeing that Zhou doesn't have the minimums kind of shocks me. I would think that he would (should) be permitted into Worlds if only because he is the reigning bronze medalist.
I also think that any scores from the last FULL season should be taken into consideration for all skaters.

 

[DreamSkates]

...
I also think that any scores from the last FULL season should be taken into consideration for all skaters.

This makes sense since any skaters may not have had the rink time or other resources to fully prepare for this season and reach their potential.

 

[Carolla5501]

You spoke in absolutes and used the phrase "the real truth". You didn't specify any individuals but rather painted a broad brush for everyone arguing there should be a reasonable allowance. Of course it includes me. How else do you expect people to respond when you write a post like that using those exact words you've used? The truth is, you made a huge broad-sweeping judgment against many members of this forum and now you're trying to use lazy psycho-analysis to back up from the absolute language you used. Maybe learn to write with more specificity and you won't find yourself in this situation. And be careful. Lazy analysis can work both ways as there are posts that can indicate the reason you don't favor at least one way to provide skaters an opportunity to show their TES minimums given the global health crisis is because of the very skaters who are affected.


Of course. Nobody stated otherwise. Again, the idea for me is trying to provide to allow some leeway and an opportunity for skaters to achieve tech minimums when we're in situation where but for the crud, skaters would have had many more opportunities to gain minimums heading to 2021 Worlds. The idea of giving skaters two seasons to get minimums is actually an allowance for skaters to use minimums from a previous season to get to Worlds ON TOP of providing an opportunity for them to get it in the current season. It was not meant to be this extremely punitive thing you and others want to turn it into and then accuse the rest of us of huge national bias. Maybe bias does come into play for some of us, but I've always been a poster who wanted rules to help the most skaters and to increase participation. My posting history reflects that and I stand by my reputation. I don't need to be lectured that I'm a self-serving chauvinist, which these accusations are becoming.

Thanks for continuing to make my point that I must’ve hit too close to home. You are very upset by what someone you don’t know didn’t say about you. Me thinks thou doth protest too much. Sometimes you can make your point better by keeping your fingers off the keyboard. But you’re making a point! have a good day

 

[skateboy]

I am going to say something controversial... I don't think all this fuss over minimums is worth it. Sure, some don't want people showing up with no double jumps. (Personally I don't care. If they qualified under the rules of their NGB, I say they should be sent. There are lots of reasons to go to Worlds and sometimes the experience is worth it, not just to the entrant but also to their NGB.) But at their heart TES minimums are arbitrary. In fact, the ISU raises and lowers them all the time in order to ensure the fields they want.

So why not lower them this year when so many couldn't find a safe opportunity to get them?

I agree.

I also think that some people here would feel some sort of smug, weird satisfaction if Vincent were kept off the World team this year, just... because.

 

[VGThuy]

Thanks for continuing to make my point that I must’ve hit too close to home. You are very upset by what someone you don’t know didn’t say about you. Me thinks thou doth protest too much. Sometimes you can make your point better by keeping your fingers off the keyboard. But you’re making a point! have a good day

That’s cute. Bless your heart and have a nice week. Maybe you can respond to the other posts that took your idiotic post the same way.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't really follow US figure skating, so seeing that Zhou doesn't have the minimums kind of shocks me. I would think that he would (should) be permitted into Worlds if only because he is the reigning bronze medalist.

We are in an interregnum.

 

[Sk8mom123]

Here's the full list that I posted in Post #54, which includes pairs and dance.

Hard look at the #s of skaters who need at least one or both minimums:​

​

Ladies (13) - Craine AUS, Williams BRA, Daleman CAN*, Zingas CYP, Brezinova CZE, Toth HUN*, Lee KOR*, Kuchvalska LAT, Perticheto PHI, Rajicova SVK, Grm SLO, Ostlund SWE, and Algotsson SWE​

​

Men (6) - Hallam GBR, Carrillo MEX, Brain MON, Oddvoll Boe NOR, Caluza PHI, and Zhou USA*​

​

Pairs (6) - Choinard/Mayr AUT, Barquero/Zandron ESP, Broda/Betegon Martin ESP, Crafoord/Crafoord SWE, Herbrikova/Roulet SUI, and Knierim/Frazer USA*​

​

Dance (6) - Kuznetsova/Kolosovskyi AZE, Khomyakova/Shapiro ISR*, Moscheni/Fioretti ITA*, Muramoto/Takahashi JPN*, Zhata/Akalin TUR, and Golubtsova/Belobrov UKR*​

​

The skaters/teams with an * are from countries with other eligible skaters to fill all of the spots allocated. Dare I add in Savchenko/Massot GER based on their IG? ;-)​

Clearly, not all of these skaters are going to be at Worlds, even if they were to make their minimums. Sweden can only send one lady, Spain can only send one pairs team, and M/T are only going to wind up at Worlds if K/K needed to withdraw. And, some of them are pretty unlikely to make the minimums. Most of the dancers are lined up for either Egna or LuMi in the next few weeks. We shall see how this plays out over the next few weeks.

ISU Communication announces virtual opportunity for minimums https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-...-evaluation-isu-world-championships-2021/file

 

[allezfred]

I think we can call it the Knierim/Frazier rule.