Decisions of the ISU Council: Stockholm Worlds (March 22-28) still on; Synchro Worlds cancelled; 2021 Grand Prix schedule/Beijing test event announced

[overedge]

That is what I love about governing bodies. Restaurants have been closed in California, ...Unless you are Nancy Pelosi or Gavin Newsome. Governance has it's perks.

They didn't get any exemption from the rules because they're in government. The rules applied to them the same as the rules applied to everyone else. They chose to break those rules. Not the same thing at all.

 

[allezfred]

Figure skating isn't a team sport.

It is at the Olympics and the World Team Trophy.

There is an opportunity for any skaters not currently qualified for Worlds to compete at the Challenge Cup in The Hague next month. If anyone says it’s too risky to compete there, how on earth is it going to be any different three weeks after at Worlds?

 

[Deleted member 221]

There is an opportunity for any skaters not currently qualified for Worlds to compete at the Challenge Cup in The Hague next month. If anyone says it’s too risky to compete there, how on earth is it going to be any different three weeks after at Worlds?

Fine with me, but given the limitations of this season, I think it would be great if as many skaters as possible had the opportunity to compete once, v. some twice in short order. Depending on how many skaters would go to Worlds but don't have the minimum, a qualifying skate in Sweden could be an easier, cheaper, and safer option.

 

[tony]

There is an opportunity for any skaters not currently qualified for Worlds to compete at the Challenge Cup in The Hague next month. If anyone says it’s too risky to compete there, how on earth is it going to be any different three weeks after at Worlds?

I agree with this being the best idea, and maybe USFS will consider it now that the ISU has published further details without mentioning TES drops? Or maybe something behind the scenes has already gone forward with this video monitoring idea.

At the very least, though, USFS should have the backup plan of sending all of them to the Netherlands.

 

[Carolla5501]

So how far back we going on the we won a medal qualification game . We can call Michelle - she won a medal. LOL.


No I don’t think letting you in because you skated good a few years ago or last year is fair. What are you saying is we taking care of those we like regardless of how they skated over the last year,. But if you worked hard to get better - too bad, we are doing this based on past history not current performance. That’s not fair either

 

[allezfred]

The ISU Special Regulations would need to be changed for a qualifying round to happen this year at Worlds. In other words, not happening.

 

[MacMadame]

They didn't get any exemption from the rules because they're in government. The rules applied to them the same as the rules applied to everyone else. They chose to break those rules. Not the same thing at all.

And Pelosi didn't even go to a restaurant, while Newsom went to an event that was technically following the rules (but only technically).

No letting you in because you skated good a few years ago or last year or isn’t any fairer . What are you saying is we taking care of those we like regardless of how they skated over the last year,. But if you worked hard to get better - too bad, we are doing this based on past history not current performance.

So which skater/team does this apply to? Because the cases we are talking about don't fall into this scenario. They are skaters who are skating great today.

 

[Dave of the North]

The ISU Special Regulations would need to be changed for a qualifying round to happen this year at Worlds. In other words, not happening.

Maybe they could call it a project, not a rule.

 

[Karen-W]

It is at the Olympics and the World Team Trophy.

There is an opportunity for any skaters not currently qualified for Worlds to compete at the Challenge Cup in The Hague next month. If anyone says it’s too risky to compete there, how on earth is it going to be any different three weeks after at Worlds?

I don't know that the skaters/teams/feds would consider it necessarily riskier than actually going to Worlds but there is the added complication that most of these skaters can't just fly back home to continue to train after Challenge Cup without a significant break in their training routine due to newly imposed quarantine restrictions to travelers returning to both Canada and the US from the EU. If arrangements could be made for them to remain in the Netherlands to train for the following 2.5 weeks before they traveled to Stockholm for Worlds, then I could see it as feasible. But who has the $$ to make that happen for the NA-based skaters who can't just travel even remotely freely back and forth between NA and Europe right now?

 

[allezfred]

But who has the $$ to make that happen for the NA-based skaters who can't just travel even remotely freely back and forth between NA and Europe right now?

Well the USFS and Skate Canada.

 

[Carolla5501]

And Pelosi didn't even go to a restaurant, while Newsom went to an event that was technically following the rules (but only technically).


So which skater/team does this apply to? Because the cases we are talking about don't fall into this scenario. They are skaters who are skating great today.

But what are you doing for somebody out there who is skating great now who wasn’t skating great last year? Oh wait you had a bad year last year so you don’t get to go to worlds regardless of how well you’re doing this year? Sorry I don’t see that being fair.

At least one pair that everyone wants to get grandfathered in on this exception has never skated together at a qualifying event. But we know that would make the score because they did well at US nationals. (They are an American team, it would not be unheard of them to get to worlds and not deliver. I don’t think they will do that, but I’ve been unpleasantly surprised by American teams in the past)

I don’t know what the solution is, but I don’t think saying well a few years ago you were good so we’re going to pretend like you’re still good because you did really well at your nationals( where traditionally scores were overinflated) is the way to go. And if we do thar everybody else who does well with their nationals and got a qualified score there should get to come too. So if the qualification as you are stating really well right now, and then that should be the qualification not well to years ago you skated really well and you did well at your national so you get to come.

You should not penalize athletes because two years ago they weren’t skating well. Nor should you reward them because they did skated good a couple of years ago.This is exactly why the public has a problem with ice skating, the perception that what you put on the ice at that event is not why you got the results you got.

 

[Carolla5501]

I don't know that the skaters/teams/feds would consider it necessarily riskier than actually going to Worlds but there is the added complication that most of these skaters can't just fly back home to continue to train after Challenge Cup without a significant break in their training routine due to newly imposed quarantine restrictions to travelers returning to both Canada and the US from the EU. If arrangements could be made for them to remain in the Netherlands to train for the following 2.5 weeks before they traveled to Stockholm for Worlds, then I could see it as feasible. But who has the $$ to make that happen for the NA-based skaters who can't just travel even remotely freely back and forth between NA and Europe right now?

Just an FYI, there is no mandatory quarantine for skaters returning from anywhere to the United States. There are some states that have a mandatory quarantine but as of today the federal government has not officially announced a quarantine. There’s also a theory that doing such mandatory quarantine on a federal basis would be illegal. So it may not happen at all. But right now there is no mandatory quarantine.

 

[Karen-W]

Just an FYI, there is no mandatory quarantine for skaters returning from anywhere to the United States. There are some states that have a mandatory quarantine but as of today the federal government has not officially announced a quarantine. There’s also a theory that doing such mandatory quarantine on a federal basis would be illegal. So it may not happen at all. But right now there is no mandatory quarantine.

Oh, whoops. I've been trying to keep the news off this week (some days more successfully than others) and I thought that I'd heard something about a mandatory quarantine in one of the record-setting EOs Biden has already issued.

 

[Carolla5501]

Oh, whoops. I've been trying to keep the news off this week (some days more successfully than others) and I thought that I'd heard something about a mandatory quarantine in one of the record-setting EOs Biden has already issued.

I think the big problem is enforcement. It’s basically going to be impossible to enforce. The theory is our county department of health would do this, in addition to doing Covid testing, Covid vaccine and everything else they normally do.

I don’t know about where you live but where I live they’re so backed up and so far behind just trying to keep up with what they’ve already got that if you throw this on them in a city like Atlanta where you have a lot of international travelers it’s just not happening . For example the place my husband works routinely has people going to the Middle East for defense department issues. Trying to keep up with those people would be a nightmare. Sometimes they are only back in the states for seven days before they go back to their other job location. Luckily for them because of what they do they will be getting the vaccine very early in the process if they haven’t already gotten it

 

[Deleted member 221]

The ISU Special Regulations would need to be changed for a qualifying round to happen this year at Worlds. In other words, not happening.

So create an invitational in Sweden that's essentially a qualifying round. There's a way around the bureaucracy, especially during a p&ndemic.

 

[tony]

So create an invitational in Sweden that's essentially a qualifying round. There's a way around the bureaucracy, especially during a p&ndemic.

Or the qualifying round could just be virtual and they only take X amount of placements, so that saves money and resources behind having to plan a separate (extended) event.

Since the USFS doesn't seem to have any plans to send Zhou or K/F to Challenge Cup (yet), I would think that virtual monitoring thing is getting a go-ahead. But since they get the chance, why not just give other skaters the chance too? Limiting the amount of qualifiers would also solve the issue of potential 45-50 person fields.

 

[Karen-W]

So create an invitational in Sweden that's essentially a qualifying round. There's a way around the bureaucracy, especially during a p&ndemic.

But they have to have the TES minimums 3 weeks before Worlds starts, so what's the point of holding an invitational event in Sweden while Challenge Cup is happening in the Netherlands?

 

[yurokis40]

Not sure I would allow any russian skaters at this event pretty much every covid 19 rule was broken at their gp event Victoria Sinitsina and Katsalapov caught covid , Sinitsina suffered lung damage which could end up being permanent, Alex Ovechkin a russian hockey player was suspended for a few games in the nhl for violating the covid rules.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

But what are you doing for somebody out there who is skating great now who wasn’t skating great last year? Oh wait you had a bad year last year so you don’t get to go to worlds regardless of how well you’re doing this year? Sorry I don’t see that being fair.

At least one pair that everyone wants to get grandfathered in on this exception has never skated together at a qualifying event. But we know that would make the score because they did well at US nationals. (They are an American team, it would not be unheard of them to get to worlds and not deliver. I don’t think they will do that, but I’ve been unpleasantly surprised by American teams in the past)

I don’t know what the solution is, but I don’t think saying well a few years ago you were good so we’re going to pretend like you’re still good because you did really well at your nationals( where traditionally scores were overinflated) is the way to go. And if we do thar everybody else who does well with their nationals and got a qualified score there should get to come too. So if the qualification as you are stating really well right now, and then that should be the qualification not well to years ago you skated really well and you did well at your national so you get to come.

You should not penalize athletes because two years ago they weren’t skating well. Nor should you reward them because they did skated good a couple of years ago.This is exactly why the public has a problem with ice skating, the perception that what you put on the ice at that event is not why you got the results you got.

Great post.

You've just summed up why I thought the decision to send Adam Rippon to the Olympics over Ross Miner, Ashley Wagner over Mirai Nagasu, and Karen Chen over Amber Glenn to Worlds, was completely unfair.

 

[Karen-W]

I don’t know what the solution is, but I don’t think saying well a few years ago you were good so we’re going to pretend like you’re still good because you did really well at your nationals( where traditionally scores were overinflated) is the way to go. And if we do thar everybody else who does well with their nationals and got a qualified score there should get to come too. So if the qualification as you are stating really well right now, and then that should be the qualification not well to years ago you skated really well and you did well at your national so you get to come.

You should not penalize athletes because two years ago they weren’t skating well. Nor should you reward them because they did skated good a couple of years ago.This is exactly why the public has a problem with ice skating, the perception that what you put on the ice at that event is not why you got the results you got.

I don't really have a problem with rewarding past Worlds or Olympics medalists who lack the TES minimums, even from 4-5 years ago, with entry at Worlds if nominated by their national federation. Aren't previous top 5-6 finishers guaranteed at least a GP slot as a returning skater? Same with split couples - they can both use one free pass invitation to the GP with their new partners, can't they? They might not be as good as they were a few years prior but they were good enough to finish in the prize money at Worlds or the Olympics. As far as I'm concerned, they have earned a bit of leniency with regard to the TES minimums that your typical 'on the bubble' skaters never achieved at any point in their careers.

Having said that, I stand by my belief that this season has been so unusual and the actual # of skaters who are reasonably close to achieving the minimums is so negligible that if the ISU wants to give them a chance to "prove" they have the TES to gain entry via video review by the technical committee, so be it. This is, literally, a one-off situation and not something to be done or expected moving forward.

And, for what it's worth, say Mishina/Galliamov and Panfilova/Rylov had both split last spring with Mishina and Rylov partnering and this hypothetical new team of M/R showed up to Rostelecom, won a medal, then barnstormed their way onto the top of the podium at RusNats, thus being named outright to the Russian Worlds team, and everyone was handwringing over how RC didn't count, and they hadn't gone to Minsk WinterStar 2020, etc, and it was messed up that they hadn't had a chance to earn their TES minimums, I'd feel the same for them as I do for K/F, which is there needs to be some accommodation.

 

[Marco]

Didn't they give Plushenko an exemption one year when he didn't have the TES min?

 

[VGThuy]

Great post.

You've just summed up why I thought the decision to send Adam Rippon to the Olympics over Ross Miner, Ashley Wagner over Mirai Nagasu, and Karen Chen over Amber Glenn to Worlds, was completely unfair.

Except in those decisions, it wasn’t about results from years ago but from competitions a year prior and competitions that very season having more weight that put Rippon and Wagner on the team over Miner and Mirai. Karen may be more controversial but Glenn and Chen basically tied at Nationals with Karen being a level 4 spin call away from beating Glenn outright and in the last two “internationals”, one real (Four Continents) and one being this past Fall’s Skate America, they competed head-to-head and at SA, Chen beat Glenn by some way and was actually scoring as high as Bradie in the LP.

That’s kind of different from TES requirements when it was meant to have two seasons full of competitions to allow skaters to reach the tech minimums. Although, if had a full season, maybe Glenn would have had more chances to prove Nationals was not just a one-off competition.

 

[Karen-W]

Except in those decisions, it wasn’t about results from years ago but from competitions a year prior and competitions that very season that put Rippon and Wagner on the team over Miner and Mirai. Karen may be more controversial but Glenn and Chen basically tied at Nationals with Karen being a level 4 spin call away from beating Glenn outright and in the last two “internationals”, one real and one was this past Fall’s Skate America, they competed head-to-head and Chen beat Glenn by some way and was actually scoring as high as Bradie in the LP.

That’s kind of different from TES requirements when it was meant to have two seasons full of competitions to allow skaters to reach the tech minimums. Although, if had a full season, maybe Glenn would have had more chances to prove Nationals was not just a one-off competition.

That's a fair point about Glenn's consistency, or rather lack of, and how it informed the USFS in its decision making about the Worlds entries. I think Canada is going through something similar with their one men's spot - there is just such a limited amount of data, how do we know that Sadovsky, Nam or Messing has become a more consistent competitor? We don't, so both federations are kind of stuck with going off of last season more than the non-existent season most of the NA-based skaters have been through.

 

[allezfred]

So create an invitational in Sweden that's essentially a qualifying round. There's a way around the bureaucracy, especially during a p&ndemic.

And who organises and pays for the “invitational” for one American man and a pair and one Canadian lady?

 

[Carolla5501]

The real truth is that what we want is an exemption for "the skaters we like" not "fair" and posters are trying to paint the "exception" as fair becausae they know that saying "they should just let Zhou in because he's the US Silver Medalist" or "they should let Daleman in because even though she took a season off we like her better than our other options" sounds patently unfair

 

[miffy]

For me this has nothing to do with favourites. I like Tomoki way more than I like Vincent, and I have barely seen K/F. But I still think they deserve to be at Worlds. It’s not their fault they haven’t had the opportunity to get the scores. They competed on the Grand Prix, the scores just didn’t count.

 

[skategal]

"they should let Daleman in because even though she took a season off we like her better than our other options"

I'm not sure who is saying that.....I see Canadians quite content to send the other 2 ladies to Worlds.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

That's a fair point about Glenn's consistency, or rather lack of, and how it informed the USFS in its decision making about the Worlds entries. I think Canada is going through something similar with their one men's spot - there is just such a limited amount of data, how do we know that Sadovsky, Nam or Messing has become a more consistent competitor? We don't, so both federations are kind of stuck with going off of last season more than the non-existent season most of the NA-based skaters have been through.

I guess the problem with the three Canadian men, is that this trio all have their strengths and weaknesses. Keegan is known for being a strong short program skater. Whereas Roman is a strong free skater. Nam is a second tier skater, who has been lucky to put down good performances when the others haven't.

 

[VGThuy]

The real truth is that what we want is an exemption for "the skaters we like" not "fair" and posters are trying to paint the "exception" as fair becausae they know that saying "they should just let Zhou in because he's the US Silver Medalist" or "they should let Daleman in because even though she took a season off we like her better than our other options" sounds patently unfair

That’s not my truth, and I painstakingly went over why I feel the way I do, so don’t put words in my mouth. I’d feel the same way even if no Americans were affected, as I believe in making exceptions to extraordinary circumstances that meets the original intent of the ISU. They didn’t intend the TES qualification procedures to be as harsh as some are arguing it should be.

 

[Deleted member 221]

And who organises and pays for the “invitational” for one American man and a pair and one Canadian lady?

Thinking creatively.... Other feds could send their alternates. Which is also a wise move given the higher-than-average likelihood of withdrawals, due to precautions, travel disruptions, false positives (as likely happened to Paige Rydberg), or actual C19. Bubble A could arrive and compete in the invitational and stay on site one day into the "real" competition, just in case withdrawals happen. This has the added bonus of not putting any country at a disadvantage for qualifying Olympics spots in case a last-minute withdrawal happens.

I don't especially care if the three skaters / teams mentioned compete at Worlds or not; just want as many skaters as possible to get one chance at a good competition.