The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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Michalle said:
I don’t think that people always talk about S/K in this thread respectfully and I wish they did.
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:lol: Lots of skaters aren't talked about 'respectfully' on here. S/K don't have first dibs on how they are 'talked about' in a variety of ways, or occasionally viewed sideways by a cross-section of fans. S/K have their admirers and supporters too. If they really bring it with something quality that hits on all cylinders when they receive such high scores, I will be right there applauding. As it stands, I acknowledge their improvement. They are better than B/S obviously, but they still have some work to do before being pushed up in the scoring with such alacrity.

In any case, not all fans 'always talk about P/C in this thread respectfully,' which is a shame, but it happens. To each their own. :watch:
 
Well maybe we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya until we can be nicer then lol :) it is true of course that we notice it more when our own favorites are criticized, I can’t disagree with you there.
 
Bigbird said:
You are right about that, she over shadowed him. She needed a more mature partner, with her he looked like a boy. In terms of temperament they were poorly matched, also with respect to body type and dancing style they simply outgrew each other
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Ah, a fascinating analysis. In looking back, it's clear that Elena was more mature than Nikita. In fact, he's still rather immature. And his skating has regressed too from what we see in the 2014 Swan Lake performance, no matter how hard Zhulin works him.

Long-suffering Sinitsina is fast outgrowing Nikita too. :duh: But Sinitsina (no matter how much better improved) doesn't have the banked fire and the mysterious, volatile, creative depths that Elena had. What a waste of a career for Elena. She tried hard with her new partner, but he too was immature and even less talented than Nikita, no matter how much he improved in trying to keep up with Elena.

There's no way of knowing, but it's possible Nikita could have been challenged to apply himself to keep up with Elena* if they'd been taken in hand by someone like Zhulin and given the proper material and packaging. Who else was there available anyway to match Elena's talent?

*And I say that with the proviso that Morosov had obviously needed to keep his hands to himself, and simply stop coaching the two young talented former lovebirds, since he couldn't control his out-of-control urges.
 
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I do like Katsalapov’s skating (except for the bobbles and twizzles) but out of the Russian male dancers I prefer Bukin. But someone who moves like Cizeron does only comes around once in a generation.
As far as the ice dance ladies are concerned, it must be a catch 22. Muscle weighs more and they need the muscle to push and spring, but they still need to be light enough to be carried. I don’t think they need to be weighed religiously. Most people can tell if they’re feeling a bit heavier without getting on the scales.
 
^^ Bukin is enjoyable to watch and he has a fine dynamic with Stepanova, but overall their SS are lacking, or at least hers are. Plus, they are not exactly completely well-matched physically, despite their engaging charisma and chemistry.

ITA with you @Immortelle regarding the weight issue. The sport needs to come to grips with body shaming vs actual on-ice athletic requirements. Health and personal responsibility for adhering to viable fitness goals and training discipline should take priority over making everyone adhere to unhealthy goals based on surface physical appearance. There needs to be individual realizable goals based upon good health in conjunction with athletic abilities and competitive potential.

Michalle said:
... we notice it more when our own favorites are criticized...
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Eh, for me personally in terms of ice dance, I can get excited by any team that has the absolute goods. Just sayin' :watch:

Plus, I don't see a ton of criticism here against S/K. They receive due praise for their improvement from many fans. It's simply the politics and the judging that seems to over-praise the extent of their improvement. ;)
 
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Immortelle said:
I do like Katsalapov’s skating (except for the bobbles and twizzles) but out of the Russian male dancers I prefer Bukin. But someone who moves like Cizeron does only comes around once in a generation.
As far as the ice dance ladies are concerned, it must be a catch 22. Muscle weighs more and they need the muscle to push and spring, but they still need to be light enough to be carried. I don’t think they need to be weighed religiously. Most people can tell if they’re feeling a bit heavier without getting on the scales.
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Yes, the button-the-jeans test is more reliable than weighing yourself, where you can go up or down a few pounds from alcohol, dehydration, bloating foods etc.
 
Dobre said:
Both Smart & Diaz and Lauriault & Le Gac have a results-related argument for going to Worlds. What I find disturbing in both scenarios is that no criteria was ever announced in either situation, and no explanation was given for why these teams were selected. Which implies--fairly or not--that if another team were to meet the same criteria in the future, it might not be accepted as valid. Athletes have every right to know where the goal line is, IMO. As far as I can tell, there wasn't even an attempt at fuzzy criteria here.

And, seriously, I don't think "trains in the same city" qualifies as acceptable sports criteria for any major international sporting event.
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Probably it’s a bit late to reopen the subject, but I had just seen this post and I have something to add regarding Spanish FED, in this case there was an explanation. Spanish FED’s web published an article explaining that S&D were the team selected for worlds and they quoted their skating technical director’s explanation:

“After assessing the scores received by the two dance couples formed by Olivia Smart & Adrián Díaz and Sara Hurtado & Kirill Jalyavin in the Grand Prix of this 2019-2020 season, the 2019 Spanish Championship and the 2020 European Championship, the Royal Federation Spanish Ice Sports has decided that the dance couple that can be more competitive in the 2020 World Championship is the couple formed by Olivia Smart & Adrián Díaz ”, explains Laia Papell, Technical Skating Director of the RFEDH.

Maybe “more competitive” is not a great explanation but it’s the only one I would use in this case. They are completely different teams, but too close in the scores and international standings to say anything about better results or quality, especially if you take into account that they train in two of the best training camps at the moment and both of them have very “sensitive egos” that an small FED as Spain doesn´t want to bruise. At this point, the main goal of the FED must be to get the second spot at worlds and use any advantage at their disposal to push their teams forward: the better results this season were for S&D (you wrote a post with the maths), the home crowd at worlds would probably be in their favour too and if none of the previous reason are good enough, at least the alternation of the teams at world champs does not bruise any coaching team ego...

I sincerely think that, now, the Spanish Fed are doing it right, I don´t see how making a set of strict rules can help them to make better decisions in this situation...
 
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her grace said:
The ISU could change the lift requirements that encourage lopsided sizing matches if they really cared about eating disorders in ice dance.
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They could certainly expand the number of ways that athletes could earn difficulty points. I don't understand why the double twizzles were eliminated as a difficult entrance. One of the only skills we saw directly lead to deductions last year on the lifts and instead of giving athletes credit for taking the risk, it was removed as an option?

Also we the fans could afford to put a lot more effort into applauding the things we love about the lady divas of the ice dance world instead of always tearing apart the athletes who stand out or are winning or are different or do not match the same traits as whoever is currently winning. Most of my favorite ice dance ladies were or are slammed for one thing or another. And I'm sure you all notice the same. Celebrate what makes the ladies special.
 
Dobre said:
They could certainly expand the number of ways that athletes could earn difficulty points. I don't understand why the double twizzles were eliminated as a difficult entrance. One of the only skills we saw directly lead to deductions last year on the lifts and instead of giving athletes credit for taking the risk, it was removed as an option?

Also we the fans could afford to put a lot more effort into applauding the things we love about the lady divas of the ice dance world instead of always tearing apart the athletes who stand out or are winning or are different or do not match the same traits as whoever is currently winning. Most of my favorite ice dance ladies were or are slammed for one thing or another. And I'm sure you all notice the same. Celebrate what makes the ladies special.
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Couldn't agree more. :respec:
 
TheresMaude said:
Re: Zhulin's list of the best male dancers, was Platov generally considered a better dancer than Sergei Ponomarenko?
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Maybe there's a personal reason why he didn't list Sergei Ponomarenko. Ponomarenko is personally my favorite male ice dancer of all time followed by Chris Dean, Scott Moir, Guillaume Cizeron, and Evgeny Platov. Also, add me to the camp who thinks he wouldn't name a third one because he would have named Cizeron.

ETA: I forgot to name Charlie White, but I wish I liked their competitive programs better. Seeing Davis/White at SOI one year made me think we've all been sleeping on him while focusing so much on Meryl. To me, live, he was the real draw of the pairing.
 
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Where does Paul Duchesney fit in? I get the impression that D/D were considered a creative but technically weak team but also that he was considered much stronger than Isabelle (which I guess references the conversation above). And what about Bukin Sr.? I definitely generally focus more on artistry than technique and I especially didn't concentrate much on the technical side of the sport back then so I don't have a strong sense of how the guys of that era line up but I'm curious to learn more.
 
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The only thing I remember from Bukin senior was him on two feet supporting Bestemianova as she spun around him and skated like a spinning top let loose off the string. It is complimentary that he was there to support her and was able to catch up to her. Paul Duchesnay was a great ice dancer and he and Isabelle made many classic programs together. That said, I wouldn't have him on the top echelon of male ice dancers. Maybe the next tier or so.
 
Another interview with Popova/Mozgov was published, apparently Sergei plans to start coaching in Tallinn, Estonia.
He went there quite often in the past to give master classes and already has some students there.

Interesting choice of the place, but good for Estonian ice dance school, I guess :)
 
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I heard that poor Charlie wanted to cut it earlier than he did, but Marina advised him to keep the curls because the judges liked it and it added to the performance. It certainly did add to the wild abandon D/W were known for. I wasn’t surprised that after they won gold that Charlie White cut it asap.
 
I have seen Drozd several times live and to me he seems like a very good skater, with great skating skills, nice speed and edges, who absolutely lacks partnering skills. He didn’t bother himself to pay any attention to Loboda when they were skating together and the same can be said about Konkina/Drozd pairing.
But I remember being really impressed with his skills at Junior Nats three or four years ago.
 
In the Bukin vs. Katsalapov debate, I’d rather watch Katsalapov any day of the week. He’s absolutely marvelous to watch just skating by himself. He just glides with such presence and command. He’s so much better alone than with a partner... but still better than Bukin when partnered IMO. I haven’t been impressed by Bukin’s skating. Not that he’s not very good, he definitely is, but he’s not a good enough skater to showcase himself or Stepanova.

I also think Zhulin wouldn’t answer the third because it’s Cizeron. He has no problem naming contentious rivals of his past. I think Cizeron being the present rival of his students, though, would warrant discretion.
 
Orm Irian said:
Solo dance is a thing?
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Yes, it's quite a thing actually. I watched part of the solo competition at Lake Placid last year. I think all of the competitors may have been women. And not surprisingly mostly women who were taller & less likely to be selected for a team, due to the lifts we have just discussed. However, it seems to be a good track for developing skills, nonetheless. Avonley Nguyen, Emily Bratti, and Eva Pate all competed in solo dance prior to working with their current partners. (Avonley was in between partners at the time). Maybe Tiffani Zagorski also. Her mom had a post last year about her skating solo compulsories.
 
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