U.S. Pairs 2019-20 season - News & Updates, Part X

[VGThuy]

So what? You said CG/L had C/J beat in head-to-heads using BOW and that's not true. You may disagree, but it's not as if people who are arguing C/J should be sent to Worlds have no leg to stand on using BOW. And if we only send those with Worlds experience (any Worlds experience) to Worlds, then we'll just keep sending the same team(s) over and over and no one else will get experience thus creating a cyclical problem. I know that's not really what you're arguing, but the idea for some is that BOW should only be used for teams who have convincingly made their case to jump over two teams to get a Worlds spot, and some argue CG/L have not convincingly made their case this season even with their 9th place showing at Worlds 2019 and some are probably worried C/J's growth may be stunted or they may become a bit discouraged without this Worlds experience not to mention the message it sends to other pairs when they beat CG/L internationally going into Nationals thinking they actually have a shot at Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

So you're a fan of none of the US teams? Same!

Why are you here then? To dis and bitch?

 

[VGThuy]

@aftershocks I will say you are most likely right with the USFS analyzing the past scores and thinking their best is with CG/L considering that they have the highest mean scores of the Fall season. Of course people will argue this hurts and may serve as a disincentive to teams that are peaking later and hitting their stride since humans aren't robots and sometimes, timing works for them in a way where they are ready later on and can really hit new heights. Some also argue that it puts too much emphasis on past results, which would be ok if the past results were stellar and undeniable, but some think CG/L's past results are not enough to overtake two other teams, especially one that beat them already and recently internationally, but that's another argument. The USFS is probably risk-averse now thanks to the recent past.

 

[aftershocks]

You may disagree, but it's not as if people who are arguing C/J should be sent to Worlds have no leg to stand on using using BOW.

Mostly you have no leg to stand on because you and some others bellyaching here aren't actually fans of U.S. pairs, AND the decision on pairs assignments has already been made by those who were given the authority and were in the best position to make the decision.

It's not easy to make these assignment decisions and the whole BOW approach is evolving. I understand the disorientation and dislike of this process by some fans. I don't always agree with U.S. fed's decisions and/or the way they go about making their decisions. However, in this instance, I would have supported any decision that was made. I was surprised by the choice that was made, but I agree with it, and I understand it.

ETA:
I appreciate debate and discussion with the best, and sure it's not a requirement to be a U.S. pairs fan in order to have an opinion. But let's try to be judicious and reasonable at the same time. I appreciate your efforts in that direction @VGThuy. Frankly, I'm truly invested in U.S. pairs so I can understand the decision, however hard it is for some to swallow for genuine or not-so genuine reasons.

 

[Kecasyl]

Let's have no more repeats of what happened to U.S. men at the infamous 2011 delayed Worlds event in Russia when all 3 guys who were sent on a hope and a prayer and by virtue of U.S. Nats placement, had no significant senior Worlds experience or standing.

Not to make a big deal out of this or anything because it's the pairs thread, but you might want to recheck your facts on the men that went in 2011 to Worlds. Not all of the men sent were newbies to Worlds, Ryan Bradley had been to two previously, one in 2007, then 2010 (in which he was competing with a broken metatarsal in his foot), and then of course 2011.

 

[aftershocks]

... this decision really doesn't smell right.

That's the least of the assignment committee's considerations. None of their decisions have to 'smell right' to any of us fans.

 

[VGThuy]

@aftershocks, I had a response to you but then I read your addendum. After reading that, I think it's clear you are a true fan of the discipline, and it's not easy when U.S. Pairs has been a punching bag on FSU for so long. I think you're trying to make the best out of this situation and have heavily invested in the American pairs field as a whole. I may not be the biggest fan of U.S. Pairs, or pairs in general, but I don't argue out of my ass either and I do watch American pairs and have advocated on behalf of a lot of them and during that 2018 Olympics slot thing where others made fun of Americans for caring that they lost a spot due to different Olympic quotas. I try to learn and be reasonable and I like to think anyone who does that has opinions that are worthy to be considered and I think all people who choose to participate on this forum should be encouraged to join in so long as they are coming in with good faith and not discouraged by being designated as not a real fan. I also think it's healthy to question decisions because we don't just want blind appeals to authority, especially when none of us are known for doing that in the past or will be doing so in the future.

 

[aftershocks]

Not to make a big deal out of this or anything because it's the pairs thread, but you might want to recheck your facts on the men that went in 2011 to Worlds. Not all of the men sent were newbies to Worlds, Ryan Bradley had been to two previously, one in 2007, then 2010 (in which he was competing with a broken metatarsal in his foot), and then of course 2011.

Look, I know all about Ryan's previous World's trips, prior to his trip as U.S. champion in 2011. I have almost perfect recall of some past U.S. Nationals events. Plus, I check out skaters' Wiki pages when I need to. In this case, I didn't need to because I remember Ryan went to Worlds before 2011 (and I've discussed this many times before, so it's old hat by now and no need to mention Ryan's previous placements which were not that high). So Voila! That's why I qualified my observation with 'no significant' Worlds experience, rather than 'no' Worlds experience when I grouped the three guys for brevity's sake. But yeah, it's so important to get into details about this in this thread.

Further discussion of U.S. men doesn't really belong here. I only used that scenario as a pertinent example that didn't go down well. I mean come on guys. You feel the way you feel. None of us is right or wrong when our emotions get involved. Let's not get tied up in knots about things that happened at U.S. Nationals and afterward that we don't like or that we don't agree with because someone else agrees with it.

 

[Kecasyl]

Look, I know all about Ryan's previous World's trips, prior to his trip as U.S. champion in 2011. I have almost perfect recall of some past U.S. Nationals events. Plus, I check out skaters' Wiki pages when I need to. In this case, I didn't need to because I remember Ryan went to Worlds before 2011 (and I've discussed this many times before, so it's old hat by now and no need to mention Ryan's previous placements which were not that high). So Voila! That's why I qualified my observation with 'significant' Worlds experience, rather than 'no' Worlds experience when I grouped the three guys for brevity's sake. But yeah, it's so important to get into details about this in this thread.

Further discussion of U.S. men doesn't really belong here. I only used that scenario as a one-off example. I mean come on guys. You feel the way you feel. None of us is right or wrong when our emotions get involved. Let's not get tied up in knots about things that happened at U.S. Nationals and afterward that we don't like or that we don't agree with because someone else agrees with it.

hey, I told you no big deal but wanted to point that out because you were quoted in saying "no significant world experience" which was incorrect and which I pointed out. That will be all.

Now, back to pairs, C/J should be going to Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

hey, I told you no big deal but wanted to point that out because you were quoted in saying "no significant world experience" which was incorrect and which I pointed out. That will be all...

No big deal. I stand by 'no significant' World experience for all three U.S. men in 2011. Actually the two younger had no senior World experience, and Ryan had, yep, 'no significant' World experience, which means nothing memorable or reputable.

As I said, I know Ryan had the opportunity to compete at Worlds previous to 2011, but he made no lasting or 'significant' impression with the judges (i.e., 15th and 18th respectively; Ryan was 13th in 2011 but he arguably should have fared better, and he may have had the championships been held in Japan as anticipated; Ross and especially Richard definitely deserved better placements in 2011). The details are significant water under the bridge by now, so when referenced in passing, going for brevity was my choice -- now foiled of course.

Sadly, U.S. fed's attempts to promote Ryan as a viable World level championship or top five contender in 2011 failed miserably. But we digress...

Back to U.S. pairs discussion.

... C/J should be going to Worlds.

Ahem. All things considered, they will be and hopefully very soon. JUST NOT IN 2020.

But oh yeah, we WILL GET TO SEE C/J AT 4CCs!!! So stay tuned newbie U.S. pairs fans.

Bandwaggoners, please stay on the C/J bandwagon come rain or come shine. It's been obvious from day one that C/J are a magical pairing. I've been enjoying re-watching all of C/J's best performances this season. So what they accomplished this past week at U.S. Nationals is very special.

IMHO, I never expected C/J to be picked for Worlds in the first place. I thought it would be K/O joining the Knierims. But Ash/Timothy is not a crazy choice for a whole host of reasons. Some fans seem to be debating just for the heck of it, while others seem upset by the whole BOW considerations impacting Worlds assignments.

I can't wait to see what choice Skate Canada makes after 4CCs, but I can guess their decision won't be as controversial, just as their waiting to make the decision after 4CCs, has not been grumbled about.

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks I will say you are most likely right with the USFS analyzing the past scores and thinking their best is with CG/L considering that they have the highest mean scores of the Fall season. Of course people will argue this hurts and may serve as a disincentive to teams that are peaking later and hitting their stride since humans aren't robots and sometimes, timing works for them in a way where they are ready later on and can really hit new heights. Some also argue that it puts too much emphasis on past results, which would be ok if the past results were stellar and undeniable, but some think CG/L's past results are not enough to overtake two other teams, especially one that beat them already and recently internationally, but that's another argument. The USFS is probably risk-averse now thanks to the recent past.

We as fans will likely never agree with every decision made by authorities. Nor do any of us always agree with each other. That's figure skating.

As far as this decision, there's probably a lot that went into it, beyond this season's results. There's last season's results, each team's experience level as partners, and the situation with the rules and start order scenario at Worlds. As I commented earlier, it would have been cool to be a fly-on-the-wall to hear how the debate went in the assignment committee meeting room.

I bet the committee does not look at 'peaking later,' and 'hitting their stride,' as decision-making factors. The goal for skaters at U.S. Nationals has to be simply doing their best and hoping to make the podium as an end goal, without assuming they will automatically be picked for Worlds. That's the 'New Worlds Order.' Get used to it. We are not always going to like the choices, especially when the assignment decisions deviate from podium results.

 

[aftershocks]

I think this is the only time these two teams have met this season and C/J came out on top.

C/J and Ash/Timothy met head-to-head twice before this year's Nationals: at U.S. International Classic (1st A&T; 6th C/J) and Skate America (5th A&T; 4th C/J, but A&T were ahead of C/J in the sp).

In addition, A&T won Golden Spin, and were 4th in France at IDF. Meanwhile, C/J won Skate Detroit and Warsaw Cup, and were 6th at Skate Canada.

At U.S. Nationals, A&T were ahead of C/J in the sp. C/J won the fp coming in 2nd overall, while A&T placed 4th overall. A&T have been together for four seasons; C/J are in their second season. A&T won U.S. Nationals last season and regained back 2 U.S. pairs spots for Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

Pushing C-G/L is holding our pairs back.

Quite the opposite, IMO. The pairing of Ash/Timothy and later of Deanna/Nate breathed more life and competitiveness into U.S. pairs at a time when the Knierims were coming back from Alexa's illness and D/F were trying to rehab and recover from Haven's seriously career-threatening knee injury, and Castelli/Tran were trying to figure out their tech stumbles and the viability of their promising but adversity-filled partnership.

The fact that they are still wobbly on lifts and that Tim lost them a whole element with the bad death spiral speaks to the fact that they haven't developed as was anticipated...

Your comments are exaggerated and short-sighted. As usual, a lot of this fan grumbling is based on what happened five minutes ago, rather than taking a longer, more judicious and thoughtful view. Ash & Timothy came out smokin' this season with noticeable improvements since 2019 Worlds. The fact they faltered a bit this season under huge expectations (their own, and the fs fandom's) does not mean they aren't 'developing as anticipated.' It's too soon and too simplistic to reach that conclusion.

It's funny how some fans were touting A&T for possibly having the chance to win gold at both their GP events. Their stock with some fans has suffered due to them not living up to those expectations. And apparently, their bounce back win at Golden Spin, has not so far helped win back many fan defectors.

 

[hoptoad]

But they have to get out there and practice their new technique under pressure. My guess is that they land a higher % at home but are reverting to old technique under pressure when they are nervous so they have to practice it. Similar to Jason who wants to get out there as much as he can.

Yes! ITA. I was coming at it from the perspective of getting all four teams a shot at ISU championship points, since who knows which team(s) will be most competitive next year or the year after.

I think Knierims and Cal/Joh both deserved the Worlds assignment, so if Kayne/O and Cain/LD were both going to 4Cs one of the Knierims or Cal/Joh would have to sit out 4C. I just think Cal/Joh need the experience and exposure to the judges much more at this point than Knierims.

Honestly, I had about given up on the Knierims, but Raf says he needs about two years to produce results with jumps, so we'll see.

I feel a little bad about not being very into Kayne/O. I know they work super hard, like all the pairs and have suffered some serious setbacks. It seems to me they need careful choreography to hide her skating weaknesses. They can sell a warhorse program, maybe they can sell something a little different next year. And hopefully improve their overall skating too.

 

[Karen-W]

Quite the opposite, IMO. The pairing of Ash/Timothy and later of Deanna/Nate breathed more life and competitiveness into U.S. pairs at a time when the Knierims were coming back from Alexa's illness and D/F were trying to rehab and recover from Haven's seriously career-threatening knee injury, and Castelli/Tran were trying to figure out their tech stumbles and the viability of their promising but adversity-filled partnership.



Your comments are exaggerated and short-sighted. As usual, a lot of this fan grumbling is based on what happened five minutes ago, rather than taking a longer, more judicious and thoughtful view. Ash & Timothy came out smokin' this season with noticeable improvements since 2019 Worlds. The fact they faltered a bit this season under huge expectations (their own, and the fs fandom's) does not mean they aren't 'developing as anticipated.' It's too soon and too simplistic to reach that conclusion.

It's funny how some fans were touting A&T for possibly having the chance to win gold at both their GP events. Their stock with some fans has suffered due to them not living up to those expectations. And apparently, their bounce back win at Golden Spin, has not so far helped win back many fan defectors.

You should go back and read my first comment about the selection to the Worlds team. In no way have I decried the USFS' decision and I certainly think that C-G/L are a better bet for a good showing at Worlds than any of the other teams in spite of their struggles this fall. I can guarantee you, I have been a fan of US Pairs at least as long as you, so please spare me your condescension.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Those bellyaching seem too caught up in the emotion of which team they like better.

Not me. CG&L are tied for my favorite team, and I dont feel they should be going to worlds. Neutral here. They simply didnt do much this year and certainly not at Nationals to earn it.

 

[vesperholly]

Gribbles

Only Ashley got married, and it wasn't to Tim

 

[jiejie]

If you believe that a skater's/couple's assignment to Worlds is primarily a reward to be bestowed by the USFS upon the highest finishers at Nationals, then of course you will be disappointed in this pairs decision. This is taking the position that consideration for individual skaters outranks the strategic needs of the US Federation.

If you believe that assignment to Worlds should be based upon the likeliest highest results, taking into account the context of international judging, then you will probably agree with this decision. This is taking the position that the USFS' primary consideration should be strategizing for highest results and future positioning of the pairs program, even if it means not going with the highest placements at Nationals.

Judging by this thread, it doesn't seem like those taking up one position over the other, are going to change their minds. But the USFS has the right to make that decision, and live or die with the results. All US skaters know this when they take up the sport and especially once they reach the international level. We will see whether the decision proves to be a good one at this year's Worlds. Last year, the USFS decision did prove to be the correct one.

 

[wickedwitch]

If you believe that assignment to Worlds should be based upon the likeliest highest results, taking into account the context of international judging, then you will probably agree with this decision. This is taking the position that the USFS' primary consideration should be strategizing for highest results and future positioning of the pairs program, even if it means not going with the highest placements at Nationals.

C/J have beaten C/L internationally this season.

I love C/L, and I really don't like how some of the attacks have gotten personal, but they haven't skated well all season, both nationally and internationally.

 

[olympic]

C/J have beaten C/L internationally this season.

I love C/L, and I really don't like how some of the attacks have gotten personal, but they haven't skated well all season, both nationally and internationally.

As I posted earlier, they do have the highest mean score internationally of ALL US pairs including the Knierims, and are 13 points higher than K/O and C/J. I am generally in agreement with the concept by the USFSA of not solely relying on Nationals, but I do believe in these unclear situations the USFSA should utilize 4CCs as a test skate. If C/J beat them again then there would be a big argument to send C/J to Worlds instead.

 

[PRlady]

Not me. CG&L are tied for my favorite team, and I dont feel they should be going to worlds. Neutral here. They simply didnt do much this year and certainly not at Nationals to earn it.

ITA and they are my favorite US pair team, although I see huge promise in C/J if they can get consistent jumps. Given the realistic competition, the 20-pair cutoff and the less-than-stellar season that C-G/L had, I would have sent C/J to Worlds.

 

[VGThuy]

ITA and they are my favorite US pair team, although I see huge promise in C/J if they can get consistent jumps. Given the realistic competition, the 20-pair cutoff and the less-than-stellar season that C-G/L had, I would have sent C/J to Worlds.

Yeah, now that I realize this isn’t a 2017 Worlds situation, the SP cut off thing isn’t as much of a danger as I initially thought.

 

[HeatherC]

Anyone know what's going on with Kayne/O'Shea? I miss the team that looked so on at TdF just last season where they arguably had the performance of the night in the LP over even James/Cipres. That Swan Lake LP was gorgeous and made me like them when I used to not like them so much for having small twists and throws and for some of their choreography. I know they had that disastrous Nationals that cost them a spot at Worlds, but I was hoping it didn't kill their momentum, but it seems like they've become a bit deflated since then even with a bronze medal here.

This is just my opinion but I think they took this season as one to experiment a bit with music and work on their skating skills. I know it's not be apparent to everyone but after watching some videos of their past performances, they really have improved overall in that department. If there's any season to do this sort of thing, it's the one in the middle of the Olympic cycle. They've actually improved at every single competition that they did this season and I love that they realized that their SP wasn't quite working so they scrapped it and came up with the gorgeous Clair de Lune one (which I hope they keep for next season). I think they just need to keep pushing forward, find some great music for a new LP next season, and then come out swinging in the fall. When they skate clean programs, the international judges do give them the credit and scores for it....they just need to do it more often. I'm encouraged for them even if everyone else is ready to write them off. This isn't the first time that my favorite pair is the one that everyone else seems to ignore or hate on here, LOL

BTW-I feel sad that they've been kind of lost in the hubbub of everything that happened at US Nats. They skated a gorgeous SP and their LP really was their best ones of the season (I thought they handled skating right after Jessica and Brian lit up the arena quite well overall). Tarah had been struggling with that throw 3Z all season and even though it wasn't perfect this weekend, she finally stood it up better which is great progress for them. I'm looking forward to seeing how they do at 4CC and I hope they move forward with a new LP next season that showcases their strengths again just like Swan Lake did for them.

 

[aftershocks]

People keep talking about how C&J can't be trusted at worlds.

I haven't seen many posters say anything about C/J not being able to be 'trusted' at Worlds. There are a lot of posters who apparently feel C/J should go to Worlds, and there may have been some mention by a few posters regarding C/J's sbs jump weaknesses. But that has no bearing on why C/J weren't selected for Worlds. And they are steadily showing improvement and more confidence on their jumping passes.

Mostly, as has already been outlined by more than one poster, C/J may be at a tactical disadvantage as newbies to Worlds re the starting order draw, as well as the scoring politics (not so much the 20-pair cut-off). However, any perceived starting order/ scoring politics disadvantages obviously can be overcome with excellent performances, which these two have been proving they can achieve.

In this instance though, I don't see much reason to bellyache about C/J not being selected for Worlds because U.S. pairs has an embarrassment of riches which makes selection choices difficult. The evolving selection rules process is meant to give the selection committee some flexibility to try and make the best decisions they hope will help continue to strengthen each discipline, while also being as fair and judicious as they can be to all the skaters. Often, the decisions are disagreed with, debated and criticized. If any of us were in the position of having to make such decisions, maybe we would be more understanding and less critical. My hope is that skaters are given a heads-up beforehand, and that they also have the decisions explained to them.

 

[aftershocks]

I love C/L, and I really don't like how some of the attacks have gotten personal, but they haven't skated well all season, both nationally and internationally.

Ash/Timothy started out the season great, as I've mentioned a number of times. So your comments are an exaggeration. A&T came out smokin' at U.S. International Classic with noticeable improvements to their skating within a short period of time (since 2019 Worlds). The fact they faltered a bit this season under huge expectations (their own, and the fs fandom's) does not equate to them 'not having skated well all season.'

In fact, A&T didn't completely tank on the GPs, they just had a spotlight of huge expectations on them that they didn't meet, which makes being just off the podium look bad. They rebounded with a win at Golden Spin, so it appears they skated reasonably well there. I haven't seen any videos of that event posted. A&T did not skate horribly at U.S. Nationals either. It was the unfortunate death spiral decision in the sp that hurt their confidence going into the fp. But they have much to be proud of about their skating in both programs.

There's just an overabundance of emotions by fans, as usual, which in some instances is understandable. But it's easy to fly off the handle with immediate reactions when we have zip accountability and no authority to make any decisions. Maybe the gnashing of teeth and hair pulling excess should be left to pro wrestling and roller derby.

As I posted earlier, they do have the highest mean score internationally of ALL US pairs including the Knierims, and are 13 points higher than K/O and C/J. I am generally in agreement with the concept by the USFSA of not solely relying on Nationals, but I do believe in these unclear situations the USFSA should utilize 4CCs as a test skate. If C/J beat them again then there would be a big argument to send C/J to Worlds instead.

Right, but apparently US figure skating is not following the same selection method process as Skate Canada, and some other feds.


In conclusion:
I support all U.S. pairs continuing to improve and continuing to push each other and thereby further strengthening the U.S. pairs discipline! Kudos to all U.S. pairs skaters, juniors and seniors!

 

[PairSkater12345]

As Ashley and Tim got the selection to go to worlds over C/J there will be a lot of pressure on them to deliver. Candidly I was at the practices and she was most definitely in a panic.

 

[her grace]

There’s a lot of different “fair” methods to use in selecting a team. Putting a lot of emphasis on a previous season isn’t always wise, e.g., Miki’s Olympics selection in 2006(?).

imagine if Russia was using this approach. Samarin would be on the world team and surprise National silver medalist (and eventual Euros silver medalist) Danielien would be staying home.

 

[PairSkater12345]

Quite the opposite, IMO. The pairing of Ash/Timothy and later of Deanna/Nate breathed more life and competitiveness into U.S. pairs at a time when the Knierims were coming back from Alexa's illness and D/F were trying to rehab and recover from Haven's seriously career-threatening knee injury, and Castelli/Tran were trying to figure out their tech stumbles and the viability of their promising but adversity-filled partnership.



Your comments are exaggerated and short-sighted. As usual, a lot of this fan grumbling is based on what happened five minutes ago, rather than taking a longer, more judicious and thoughtful view. Ash & Timothy came out smokin' this season with noticeable improvements since 2019 Worlds. The fact they faltered a bit this season under huge expectations (their own, and the fs fandom's) does not mean they aren't 'developing as anticipated.' It's too soon and too simplistic to reach that conclusion.

It's funny how some fans were touting A&T for possibly having the chance to win gold at both their GP events. Their stock with some fans has suffered due to them not living up to those expectations. And apparently, their bounce back win at Golden Spin, has not so far helped win back many fan defectors.

Ashley and Tim did well in Salt lake. Not so much on the Grand Prix circuit. Looking a the long road Ashley and Tim have to do something about fixing their lifts. Right now he looks very shaky in most lifts. They have the benefit of smart coaching to get the most points based on the levels ect. Their lifts are not in the class of Haven and Brandon, not close.
In fact the chatter in his movements concerns me every time he lifts her (very shaky). Remember we have already seen a very serious accident with a dismount by this team.

 

[aftershocks]

Ashley and Tim did well in Salt lake. Not so much on the Grand Prix circuit. Looking a the long road Ashley and Tim have to do something about fixing their lifts. Right now he looks very shaky in most lifts. They have the benefit of smart coaching to get the most points based on the levels ect. Their lifts are not in the class of Haven and Brandon, not close.
In fact the chatter in his movements concerns me every time he lifts her (very shaky). Remember we have already seen a very serious accident with a dismount by this team.

Fair enough, but I don't think their lifts are as problematic as controlling nerves under pressure, and working out better consistency and confidence on their throws/ landings, and avoiding URs because they have a good arsenal of jump difficulty. Someone mentioned awhile back that Ashley excels more with the edge jumps rather than the toe jumps, which is good for point value on the triple loop when they land it well.

A&T's jump consistency is fair to good, and is seen as one of their strengths, along with improved speed, power, lines, presentation skills, and a good triple twist under Mozer's tutelage.

I don't worry about A&T's lifts. With Ashley's height, lifts will likely never be a huge strength for them. But they work hard on off-ice lift exercises and incorporating difficulty, and they manage to get the job done adequately. Frankly, I see some other senior pairs guys internationally and some at the lower levels who look more visibly shaky. Marinaro, e.g., is nervewracking to watch on the lifts... Kirsten is not tall, and she knows how to carry her weight on the lifts.

We can cite a lot of teams, even ones with great lift skills who have lift lapses. Why? It's because of the incorporation of ever increasing difficulty on entries, exits, position variations, ice coverage, etc. New lifts are always being innovated and copied. Sure D/F and the Knierims have stronger lifts than A&T, but A&T also have enviable abilities.

TBH, the problems A&T had on the GP are based on the pressure of expectations. The score they got at the Int'l Classic in Salt Lake was overly questioned by some fans. They certainly deserved to win, and they performed better than everyone, particularly going clean in the sp. Since the judges gave T/M predictably too high a score with mistakes, they had to go higher for A&T.

Maybe A&T felt the need at Skate America to live up to that scoring standard and also to win gold, which led to increased pressure. They were skating well in the sp, until Ash's boot appeared to slip and turn on the landing of her throw. It was a fluke situation that seemed to stick in her head, because she usually had been landing jumps well. Even if she leaned forward on some landings, she'd still been getting the job done. Then under a difficult turnaround at SA, nerves seemed to multiply in the fp. It seemed purely psychological and pressure-driven IMO, and nothing to do with any lack of talent or ability.

 

[PairSkater12345]

Fair enough, but I don't think their lifts are as problematic as controlling nerves under pressure, and working out better consistency and confidence on their throws/ landings, and avoiding URs because they have a good arsenal of jump difficulty. Someone mentioned awhile back that Ashley excels more with the edge jumps rather than the toe jumps, which is good for point value on the triple loop when they land it well.

A&T's jump consistency is fair to good, and is seen as one of their strengths, along with improved speed, power, lines, presentation skills, and a good triple twist under Mozer's tutelage.

I don't worry about A&T's lifts. With Ashley's height, lifts will likely never be a huge strength for them. But they work hard on off-ice lift exercises and incorporating difficulty, and they manage to get the job done adequately. Frankly, I see some other senior pairs guys internationally and some at the lower levels who look more visibly shaky. Marinaro, e.g., is nervewracking to watch on the lifts... Kirsten is not tall, and she knows how to carry her weight on the lifts.

We can cite a lot of teams, even ones with great lift skills who have lift lapses. Why? It's because of the incorporation of ever increasing difficulty on entries, exits, position variations, ice coverage, etc. New lifts are always being innovated and copied. Sure D/F and the Knierims have stronger lifts than A&T, but A&T also have enviable abilities.

TBH, the problems A&T had on the GP are based on the pressure of expectations. The score they got at the Int'l Classic in Salt Lake was overly questioned by some fans. They certainly deserved to win, and they performed better than everyone, particularly going clean in the sp. Since the judges gave T/M predictably too high a score with mistakes, they had to go higher for A&T.

Maybe A&T felt the need at Skate America to live up to that scoring standard and also to win gold, which led to increased pressure. They were skating well in the sp, until Ash's boot appeared to slip and turn on the landing of her throw. It was a fluke situation that seemed to stick in her head, because she usually had been landing jumps well. Even if she leaned forward on some landings, she'd still been getting the job done. Then under a difficult turnaround at SA, nerves seemed to multiply in the fp. It seemed purely psychological and pressure-driven IMO, and nothing to do with any lack of talent or ability.

Well We are going to have to disagree on the lifts. Lifts are a big problem for Ashley and Tim and there is significantly more risk than the other 4 teams we have been talking about. The coaches are going to have to figure something out there. It's interesting you say that they are working on strength and I agree they are. I recently saw some video of their off ice repetitive lifting exercises and noticed him dropping her hard to the ground.....I think you are right he most definitely needs to get stronger. Let's face it she is tall. I also think we agree on the nerves issues for Ashley. I'm not one to give advice about fixing it but It's surely a detriment to consistency and it shows up in their best elements the jumps. My concern is that we are betting an awful lot at worlds on their performance. It's unusual that the "Mystery decisions made in Selection Committee" would overlook two teams that finished above Ashley and Tim at nationals. No one accept Haven and Brandon had a good Grand Prix season. If you went solely by BOW I don't know why you wouldn't pick them? So what, Haven and Brandon had two bad days. They did better than all the other US teams in the GP why not send them?
I'm concerned that the US national Championships don't mean as much anymore with the selection committee deciding based on their own criteria and Politics. Say a team earned two silver medals at easy grand prix's, why go to nationals? You get worlds based on BOW. Teams that did well during the season don't have to risk nationals because they get worlds anyway.