U.S. Pairs 2019-20 season - News & Updates, Part X

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

O- M - G

Listen I’m a big big fan of Ashley and Tim but I am surprised that they are on the worlds team. I’m not a fan of C&J yet but I am becoming one !!

I can’t believe Ashley and Tim are named to the worlds team and the other teams who finished above them are not going.

It also happened in men’s but in that case I agree with that.

I can’t remember another year where they selected the worlds team by I guess strictly BOW

Ashley and Tim did not even have a good international season on the circuit except for the very very first event in August (and remind you I am a big fan of theirs)

Yes Ashley and Tim got the two spots but heck they did not even bronze at nationals. Had they I would’ve probably thought it would be cool if they went.

So just like Deanna Stellato last year it’s such a slap in the face to teams who actually medal and put out strong performances. You spend so much money, exert so much energy and resources and then you’re not paid or awarded for your efforts.

I am all about being neutral.... yes Angela was always my favorite but if she doubled her jumps or fell I was always like yes she should be staying home. Same for my favorites as of today.

They should’ve put out a huge disclaimer, “listen skaters Ashley and Tim will go to worlds no matter what so otherwise you need to become the national champion but that may not even secure it either.”

Lol. Obviously this isn’t sitting well tonight With ANL!!!! Lol

I am not a fan yet of C&J But they definitely deserved and earned their spot on the world team. Heck they won the dang free program

It’s becoming apparent to me there’s no reason to have nationals anymore. Are the fields are dwindled down to eight entries just about and it looks like they’re going and selecting teams by BOW.

By the way for those of you who attended nationals did the tickets cost less now since there’s less skaters to watch? My guess is no. LOL

 

[NAOTMAA]

I think "Body of work" has come to completely dominate their thought process and nationals results is becoming less and less of a factor and we just have to accept that

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yeah well, the heartbreak of Ross Miner not going to the Olympics after his stellar 2018 performances at U.S. Nats, still stings. And the hugely questionable decision of not sending Jeremy Abbott to Worlds over a young Ross in 2011 was a big mistake in slavishly adhering to a .19 scoring difference between Ross in third and Abbott in 4th. Ryan B (2011 champion) was not well known by ISU judges, and Richard Dornbush and Ross were newbies to seniors, both of whom despite skating very well, got treated like shit in Russia (when Japan earthquake forced a Worlds venue change). U.S. men lost a third spot and had a lot of trouble getting it back consistently over the following years, until Nathan burst on the senior scene.

Making selections isn't easy under the antiquated competitive structure that's still in place. I'm fine with the choices this year, but I understand the debates. No one will ever be satisfied, no matter what choices are made. They have to make hard decisions and they did, or maybe it wasn't too hard after all. As I say, it'd be cool to hear what the debates were in the committee meeting room.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I think "Body of work" has come to completely dominate their thought process and nationals results is becoming less and less of a factor and we just have to accept that

Yup! Look what I wrote in my last two paragraphs just above your post

 

[aftershocks]

^^ As I pointed out in my previous posts, likely much more than simply BOW is being considered, under the circumstances. A lot of factors appear to be involved, IMO.

 

[semogal]

O- M - G

Listen I’m a big big fan of Ashley and Tim but I am surprised that they are on the worlds team. I’m not a fan of C&J yet but I am becoming one !!

I can’t believe Ashley and Tim are named to the worlds team and the other teams who finished above them are not going.

It also happened in men’s but in that case I agree with that.

I can’t remember another year where they selected the worlds team by I guess strictly BOW

Ashley and Tim did not even have a good international season on the circuit except for the very very first event in August (and remind you I am a big fan of theirs)

Yes Ashley and Tim got the two spots but heck they did not even bronze at nationals. Had they I would’ve probably thought it would be cool if they went.

So just like Deanna Stellato last year it’s such a slap in the face to teams who actually medal and put out strong performances. You spend so much money, exert so much energy and resources and then you’re not paid or awarded for your efforts.

I am all about being neutral.... yes Angela was always my favorite but if she doubled her jumps or fell I was always like yes she should be staying home. Same for my favorites as of today.

They should’ve put out a huge disclaimer, “listen skaters Ashley and Tim will go to worlds no matter what so otherwise you need to become the national champion but that may not even secure it either.”

Lol. Obviously this isn’t sitting well tonight With ANL!!!! Lol

I am not a fan yet of C&J But they definitely deserved and earned their spot on the world team. Heck they won the dang free program

It’s becoming apparent to me there’s no reason to have nationals anymore. Are the fields are dwindled down to eight entries just about and it looks like they’re going and selecting teams by BOW.

By the way for those of you who attended nationals did the tickets cost less now since there’s less skaters to watch? My guess is no. LOL

OMG, did you steal my facebook post? LOL I just wrote the same thing. Why do we even have nationals? Save the money and the stress and just have USFS select the winners. Ugh.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Can't they just use the Russian method and have a skate off at 4CC? Chances are Ashley and Tim will redeem themselves there and the USFSA decision (which clearly looks like it was decided before nationals even started) won't look so nasty.

I think this is the only time these two teams have met this season and C/J came out on top. At least a skate off will make body of work look more clear (besides this season results should matter more then last).


edit: they met at Skate America and C/J beat them there too!!! Real stupid USFSA, real stupid

 

[aftershocks]

... So just like Deanna Stellato last year it’s such a slap in the face to teams who actually medal and put out strong performances.

I seriously doubt that the intention of U.S. figure skating is to 'slap' any of their skaters in the face. U.S. fed simply have to make tough choices. What I think would help is if members of U.S. fed would explain their decision-making to skaters privately, but probably they don't.

FYI: Deanna is in a good situation now (skating with Maxime Deschamps in Canada). Her partnership with Nate had run it's course anyway, particularly as Nate was dealing with taking care of an injury.

 

[shan]

Can't they just use the Russian method and have a skate off at 4CC? Chances are Ashley and Tim will redeem themselves there and the USFSA decision (which clearly looks like it was decided before nationals even started) won't look so nasty.

I think this is the only time these two teams have met this season and C/J came out on top. At least a skate off will make body of work look more clear (besides this season results should matter more then last).

Has the U.S. ever done a skate off at 4CC's? Having a skate off between Calalang/Johnson and Cain-Gribble/Le Duc would disregard Kayne/O'Shea's bronze finish here. It's all so complicated, and I see the reasoning, but Cal/John were so good!! I hope they do well at 4 CC's.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Has the U.S. ever done a skate off at 4CC's? Having a skate off between Calalang/Johnson and Cain-Gribble/Le Duc would disregard Kayne/O'Shea's bronze finish here. It's all so complicated, and I see the reasoning, but Cal/John were so good!! I hope they do well at 4 CC's.

I honestly forgot all about about Kayne/O'Shea
It's really clear the USFSA wanted Cain-Gribble/Le Duc on the world team and since Calalang/Johnson are the ones who finished in 2nd the focus is only on those two teams. Poor bronze medalists Kayne/O'Shea indeed


If the USFSA had already decided before nationals they wanted Cain-Gribble/LeDuc on the world team (and its clear they did) then they should have announced before nationals "Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc have a automatic bye to worlds regardless of the results of nationals. The second of the two spots is up for grabs" or some shit like that. It still stinks but its far easier to swallow then what they are doing now.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

^^^^ what organization is ever straight up?

 

[Karen-W]

Here is the issue with sending C/J to Worlds over either K/O or C-G/L - they are still relatively unknown on the international scene and haven't demonstrated any sort of consistency in landing their SBS jumps. I have tried to stay off the fan trains of any potentially good US pairs team until they show me they can land the jumps at least semi-regularly so I've been a skeptic of C/J all fall. Clearly when they skate clean they are world class, their free program showed that, but they didn't even beat C-G/L in both phases of Nationals.

And, before anyone says "they were just over 1 point behind C-G/L in the short!" let's acknowledge that if not for a shift in pivot position by Tim during the death spiral, that margin would have been a lot wider. Yes, all of it matters but the judges were clearly prepared to put a program that had a 2-footed Th3z landing from C-G/L within striking distance of a perfect, on-fire skate from the Knierems. C-G/L's struggles this season on that Th3z have been confounding but I suspect there is far more confidence in their ability to work through the issues and sort it out (the progress was evident here in Greensboro compared to the fall) and be fine by Worlds than there is confidence in C/J's ability to land the SBS jumps.

It's sketchy enough to send one team to Worlds that is wildly inconsistent with the SBS jumps like the Knierems but it's madness to send two teams with the same issue and hope that they'll both come through under pressure. I agree, we aren't likely to lose the 2nd spot but stranger things have happened - just look back at both 2017 & 2018 Worlds - plus, C-G/L did earn back that 2nd spot and responded very well under tremendous pressure to do just that last season, so I really don't have an issue with the USFS allocating the Worlds and 4CCs spots the way they did.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep, as I already pointed out in a previous post. A lot of factors go into the assignment decisions. C/J are wonderful and they will have an opportunity to shine and continue building recognition and momentum at 4CCs. I doubt that they are upset by this decision, especially not like some fans are acting. K/O may be more upset at not being picked for Worlds over Ash/Timothy, but A&T placed better than K/O on the GP, and A&T also won gold ahead of K/O at Golden Spin.

Maybe Claire will get another interview with C/J and with K/O and get their reactions.

In regard to C/J's sbs jumps, they are making good progress, and I hope their progress continues. Mastering confidence is half the battle. Clearly, C/J are able to land their jumps because they said how well they skated in the fp is how they always train in practices.

"Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc have a automatic bye to worlds regardless of the results of nationals. The second of the two spots is up for grabs" or some shit like that. It still stinks but its far easier to swallow then what they are doing

I think your way of looking at this is way OTT. I like Tomoki's answer during the press conference before the assignments were announced. He said, "I trust the people making the decision, and I will be fine with whatever decision is made..."

 

[Frau Muller]

Ridiculous naming of C-G/L to Worlds. I smell a big PC political rat.

 

[Spiralgraph]

I wasn't really expecting Ashley and Tim to be named to the world team. Wow. I do feel bad for C/J. But this puts more pressure on C-G/L to perform well at worlds. More than the Knierims. If Ashley and Tim under perform yikes I can foresee the firestorm here and everywhere.

 

[AYS]

I'm happy from the standpoint of a fan, but truly surprised at the decision to name C-G/L over C/J, even given the BOW, based on the performances at Nationals. (Naming them over K/O is easier to see). I thought they'd only possibly get 4CCs.

That said, my best wishes to them to sort through the throw issue that's been plaguing them and would love to see them skate to their full potential at Worlds. I very much hope this is just the beginning for C/J and they have world team berths in their future.

 

[casken]

For me Calahang/Johnson was the most compelling and complete performance from any pair at Nationals since Castile/Okolski shocked everyone and won way back in 2007. Not sending them onto worlds is crazy.

Here is the issue with sending C/J to Worlds over either K/O or C-G/L - they are still relatively unknown on the international scene and haven't demonstrated any sort of consistency in landing their SBS jumps. I have tried to stay off the fan trains of any potentially good US pairs team until they show me they can land the jumps at least semi-regularly

So you're a fan of none of the US teams? Same!

The USFSA's decision is utter garbage.

 

[Spikefan]

I will be cheering like crazy for C/J to medal at 4CC.

 

[oleada]

The pairs selection is ridiculous. Cain-Gribble and LeDuc won SLC, but it’s not like they were clean there. They’ve struggled with the jumps and the throw 3Lz all season; and it’s not like the lifts or the twists are a strength. They finished 3rd out of all the American teams at Skate America. I’m not sure what BOW they have over Calalang and Johnson, who are a new team on the rise. C/J are inconsistent with the jumps as well, but they had a great skate at nationals and their lifts and twist are world class already.

 

[LarrySK8]

If the standings were C/J, the Knierims, then K/O and then C-G/L - what would they do? Send the US Champs (C/J) and C-G/L over the Knierims? Leave C/J home as US Champs?

It's ridiculous - they chose C-G/L and the Knierims looooooooooong ago for the team because C-G/L have better SBS jumps, and the Knierims have a better everything else. The other 2 teams are not at their level.

It's like they chose the team based on SBS jump points and SS PCS points only.

 

[kwanfan1818]

C-G/L will almost certainly start the Worlds SP in the penultimate group (assuming at least 15 Pairs in the SP). Another way besides experience in general terms that limits opportunity in a never-ending downward spiral. Which means there are two Worlds now at which USFS might take a chance: Olympic year Worlds, and probably only if the top teams withdraw, with their replacements on hold in maintenance mode and possibly assigned at the last minute, and the post-Olympic season. Because this season isn't enough to give US Man #3 a shot, with the WC in the mix, let alone Pairs #2.

C/J would be in the earlier group random draw; winning 4C's plus Challenge Cup -- unlikely -- would still take a much larger field than last season to expand the later group. I hope they earn a pile of points at 4C's and score a SB that pushes them even higher on the SB list.

 

[sk9tingfan]

A very interesting analysis by skatingscores.com who provides an insightful view of the insides of skating judging

SkatingScores on Twitter

“Some 🇺🇸US Pairs stats from the Fall 2019 Int'l season (Grand Prix + Challenger Series). » 🇺🇸Cain/LeDuc have the highest mean Event, FS & SP Totals of any US team. » 🇺🇸Calalang/Johnson have the lowest mean Event & FS Totals, and second-lowest mean SP Total of the top 5 US teams.”

twitter.com

SkatingScores just corrected the observation to Denny and Frazier with the highest mean scores.

 

[mademoisellebug]

No novice events at Nationals this year. Top 6 novice singles skaters competed in the junior events

Oh!!!! OK Thanks!

 

[Ena Grins]

I have to say, usually I understand USFSA's Worlds decisions even when a lot of other people have complained about them, but this does not make sense to me. The SkatingScores link above about mean scores from this year is interesting, but I just don't buy that there's a big difference among any of the US teams this year. C-G/L have had a rough year, despite what they did last year, and it's not like C/J have been scoring in the 50s for the SP or <100 for the FS. I don't see any of the teams having a much greater chance than another this year, so why not give it to the teams that were clearly the best at Nationals?

 

[casken]

The thing is now, C&L won't got the US National Chmapion bonus that pushed them into the top ten at worlds last year. That's going to go back to the Knierims.

 

[nylynnr]

The thing is now, C&L won't got the US National Chmapion bonus that pushed them into the top ten at worlds last year. That's going to go back to the Knierims.

I would make a bet that many judges on the panel will not know whether the Cain & LeDuc are U.S. champions, or the Knierims are U.S. champions, this season.

 

[CassAgain]

The thing is now, C&L won't got the US National Chmapion bonus that pushed them into the top ten at worlds last year. That's going to go back to the Knierims.

They were 15 points ahead of their closest competitors in 10th (Austrians) and 18 points ahead of 11th place (North Koreans). Do you attribute it all to National Champion bonus?

 

[casken]

They were 15 points ahead of their closest competitors in 10th (Austrians) and 18 points ahead of 11th place (North Koreans). Do you attribute it all to National Champion bonus?

The undertotated triple called clean + overmarking GOE and PCS, combined with undermakering the the other two teams? For sure that helped them get ahead of the Austrians at least.

 

[PRlady]

After watching Euro pairs, I have to say that not one of those un-Russian pairs is a slam dunk over CG/L OR C/J, not even the experienced Italians who are really having a rough season. So there are two Chinese teams that will finish higher along with the three Russians, assuming T/M don't crash and burn worse than they already have, and anywhere from zero to two Canadian teams who can finish higher. I personally love the Germans H/N but they are still hit-and-miss on some of the big elements, the Austrians probably peaked at home, no J/C at Worlds.

The Gribbles are my favorite US pair team but I think that at least 4Cs could have been used as a skate-off, this decision really doesn't smell right.

 

[VGThuy]

Honestly, I don’t know why people are surprised or worked up about the worlds decision. C-G/L have always gotten preferential treatment by the USFS when it came to selections since they got together and at the time all the fans were on board because they were new and exciting.