Should The Minimum Age That Ladies Can Compete As Seniors In Singles Be Raised From 15 To 17/18 Years Of Age?

[Japanfan]

There doesn't have to be anything. It depends on what the goals are. If the goal is to have the best of the best, then country limitations are stupid. If the goal is to have the most diverse field ever by country, then they make sense.

I always thought that diversity was one of the goals in World Championship figure skating - don't know about other sports. And it is certainly a goal of the Olympics.

I enjoy seeing skaters from different countries. If I want to see more skaters from just one country, I can watch that country's Nationals.

 

[MacMadame]

I guess they figure three medalists, three chances for a country to medal and possibly sweep. I guess it’s been three for such a long time they don’t want to mess with the formula. It’s not rational but I don’t like it when GPF has more than three qualifiers from one country even when they deserve. With a limited field of 6 per discipline, 3 is quite a lot already.

Didn't it used to be four? Like ages ago maybe before we both were born.

I always thought that diversity was one of the goals in World Championship figure skating - don't know about other sports. And it is certainly a goal of the Olympics.

I think it's a fine goal for the Olympics but I think a World Championship should be about crowning of the best of the best.

All sports do it differently.

My ideal would be to let every country have 1 and then let everyone who meets certain criteria get to go regardless of their country.

 

[Orm Irian]

I think a World Championship should be about crowning of the best of the best.

It already is (each eligible country, after all, sends its best available competitors, and the best of those on the day wins), but the goal really is diversity and inclusion. That's why it's called the World Championships, not just the Championships. The adjective is there to modify the noun for a reason: to describe what kind of Championship event it is.

 

[miffy]

I think it should be max 3 per country but maybe an extra place if 3 were in the top 5 at Worlds the year before, or more than 3 qualified to the GPF... not sure exactly how it would work but I have always felt it should be more in certain cases - previously the 2006 Japanese Ladies (Suguri/Ando/Arakawa/Nakano) and now the Russian Ladies are so strong. It would be great to see the 3A + Tuk at Worlds.

 

[Japanfan]

I think it should be max 3 per country but maybe an extra place if 3 were in the top 5 at Worlds the year before, or more than 3 qualified to the GPF... not sure exactly how it would work but I have always felt it should be more in certain cases - previously the 2006 Japanese Ladies (Suguri/Ando/Arakawa/Nakano) and now the Russian Ladies are so strong.

I think 3 should be the max. It is enough, and fair IMO.

It's important to let multiple countries participate in 'World' championships. Allowing athletes from countries in which figure skating is not popular gives those athletes experience in international competition, which they can give back to their own countries in various capacities. And FS may gain more visibility in those countries, which may inspire more people to try out FS and maybe compete (think Fernadez and Spain, Ten and Kazakstan, Martinez and the Phillipines). That's good for the sport.

I think it's a fine goal for the Olympics but I think a World Championship should be about crowning of the best of the best.

My ideal would be to let every country have 1 and then let everyone who meets certain criteria get to go regardless of their country.

It's the 'best of the best' in the World, not just the best a few countries with strength in FS. If athletes from South Africa or Columbia or India are the best in their county and qualify for Worlds, those athletes have a right to attend worlds.

I don't want the Ladies competition at World Championships to be a repeat of Russian nationals - to give an example in general, am referring to any country which would dominate a field.

If we had 5 competitors from Canada, the US and Russia - the strongest FS nations - in a field, that would tie up a lot of spots in a World's competition. I'd much rather see athletes from other countries get a chance. If I favor skaters from a certain country, I can watch that country's Nationals.

 

[VGThuy]

I really wouldn’t mind wildcard slots be allotted to allow a country to qualify more than they qualified for at the previous Worlds, but I’m sure the smaller feds wouldn’t go for it and I bet cost reasons would never let that idea go forward unless there was a way to do that without an extra completion.

 

[miffy]

If they did a wildcard for an extra spot for a country that had either 3 in the top 5 the previous year that would only be 1 extra spot - not potentially 1 per country - 1 overall. Can’t have 6 skaters in the top 5 The same would apply if they based it on 4 in the GPF instead. That might be better as it is the current season.

 

[hanca]

It already is (each eligible country, after all, sends its best available competitors, and the best of those on the day wins), but the goal really is diversity and inclusion. That's why it's called the World Championships, not just the Championships. The adjective is there to modify the noun for a reason: to describe what kind of Championship event it is.

It is really not world championships if a person who could easily win a medal is sitting at home because there are too many talented skaters in her country, whereas a person whose total score is less than the former person’s FS is competing. It is not really about the best, it is just about showing that the sport can be done anywhere, while ignoring the fact about the standard of the sport is some of those countries. It reminds me school sports day - everyone takes part, everyone is the winner. World championships should be the best of the best. If they are all from one or two countries, so be it. The people watching it would be the one interested in the sport, not about politics and national bias.

 

[Japanfan]

It is really not world championships if a person who could easily win a medal is sitting at home because there are too many talented skaters in her country, whereas a person whose total score is less than the former person’s FS is competing. It is not really about the best, it is just about showing that the sport can be done anywhere, while ignoring the fact about the standard of the sport is some of those countries.

I see it the opposite way. As I indicated above, world championships are meant to be inclusive of as many countries as possible. The criteria of three skaters max per country seems absolutely fair to me.

The World Championships don't, and shouldn't, give more spots to a country because a potential medalist will have to stay home. The skaters who compete are the best in their country and have every right to attend Worlds providing they meet the requirements.

If your suggestion were in place, Fernadez and Ten might not even have made it to Worlds.

It reminds me school sports day - everyone takes part, everyone is the winner. World championships should be the best of the best. If they are all from one or two countries, so be it. The people watching it would be the one interested in the sport, not about politics and national bias.

IMO that is a flawed analogy. 'Everyone' refers to all the kids in school. Whereas elite figure skating is far, far more eclectic than school sports day. Even a skater from a country not known for FS has still done something remarkble in qualifying for Worlds.

I would get very bored if all the skaters at Worlds were from just one or two countries. Could be replay of Nationals to a certain extent, and when Worlds comes around, I have already seen Nationals.

 

[gkelly]

What if the Grand Prix series were expanded -- probably with 18 or 24 skaters per fall event, and/or with more than just the 6 current events -- and then the top 12 or 18 or 24 qualified for the final.

And then keep Worlds more or less as is.

That would give plenty of opportunities for non-top-3 skaters from deep federations, and for skaters from smaller federations with the minimum qualifications to participate in the premier fall competitions. And it would result in two separate big prestigious competitions later in the season -- one with entries determined by federation and another with entries determined by individual achievement.

Assuming the World Championships retained its current name, is there a more prestigious name for Grand Prix Final to reflect that winning that title would be equal or in some senses more prestigious than becoming World Champion?

 

[shine]

Well Kostner is in her 30s and she's having surgery on her hip so the argument is moot with regard to age. And, unless men are part of the age discussion, it's gender biased and also moot. Let the kids skate.

The male body hits its physical peak at a later stage than the female body, as far as jumping (which is the overwhelmingly dominant part of FS scoring these days) is concerned. Taking this fact into consideration is not gender bias.

 

[Japanfan]

The male body hits its physical peak at a later stage than the female body, as far as jumping (which is the overwhelmingly dominant part of FS scoring these days) is concerned. Taking this fact into consideration is not gender bias.

But setting different senior competition age requirements for girls/boys or women/men is arguably gender bias. Especially given that females and males do not compete against each other. And, given that there is more to skating than just jumping. Artistry, interpretation and performance often improve with age.

And I think that female-specific training methods need to be advanced in order to help women deal with the specific physical requirements of FS.

Finally, I am sure there are some women who haven't reached their peak in jumping until post-pubescence. Midori Ito might be an example, but I've no idea of her jumping prowess as a teen.

The current crop of Russian girl phenoms is rather exceptional in this sport SFAIK - not a norm.

 

[MacMadame]

But setting different senior competition age requirements for girls/boys or women/men is arguably gender bias.

We already have different age requirements for men vs. women in Pairs and Dance in Juniors. (Only in this case, it's the upper age limit, not the lower.)

 

[Japanfan]

What if the Grand Prix series were expanded -- probably with 18 or 24 skaters per fall event, and/or with more than just the 6 current events -- and then the top 12 or 18 or 24 qualified for the final.

And then keep Worlds more or less as is.

That would give plenty of opportunities for non-top-3 skaters from deep federations, and for skaters from smaller federations with the minimum qualifications to participate in the premier fall competitions. And it would result in two separate big prestigious competitions later in the season -- one with entries determined by federation and another with entries determined by individual achievement.

I would love an expanded GP. But I don't think it is going to happen, because

Assuming the World Championships retained its current name, is there a more prestigious name for Grand Prix Final to reflect that winning that title would be equal or in some senses more prestigious than becoming World Champion?

I don't think it's about the name GPF. The title GPF Champion isn't more prestigious than World Champion, but it does merit more recognition. I don't know how to make that happen.

 

[gkelly]

Finally, I am sure there are some women who haven't reached their peak in jumping until post-pubescence. Midori Ito might be an example, but I've no idea of her jumping prowess as a teen.

Young Ito was pretty far ahead jumpwise of the rest of the ladies field in the early 1980s.

She landed the first ladies 3T+3T at 1982 Jr. Worlds age 12.

At 14, she attempted 5 different triples at 1984 Worlds (not all successfully) at a time when most of the top ladies only had 2 or 3 different kinds.

Here's a cleaner LP with 5 different triples at 1984 Skate Canada, age 15

At 1984 NHK she attempted but fell on the 3A. She did land one in isolation at the NHK exhibition, which I'm not finding on video.

 

[Cutting the Ice]

Odd that concussion isn't mentioned.
Curious that the date range for increased injuries is 1982-2003 since they looked at literature up to 2017. They apparently missed the whole new quad revolution?

Spun Silver (and others)
I was able to download the entire article - tons of very interesting information on prevalence and incidence of various injuries - divided by discipline. It is not a systematic review of the literature so no compiled data. WRT head injuries (which includes concussions, contusions and lacerations), 3 quoted studies found an incidence of 2.9%, 9.8% and 15.3% with pairs and ice dancers reporting more than singles skaters. If there is interest, I can quote the different types of musculoskeletal injuries in singles skaters (not divided by male / female or by age).

The authors report the weaknesses in the studies included in this paper - in particular most studies are retrospective and so there may be inaccurate reporting and recall bias. However, they do conclude that a) not enough studies published b) injuries are increasing and they speculate that this is due to more quad jumps in singles skating, quad throws in pairs, repetitive triple jumps and longer hours spent training. These are all things speculated often by posters here - and again, points out the need for more well-designed prospective studies that can more accurately determine injury risk and - obviously - how to mitigate those risks.

 

[Japanfan]

Young Ito was pretty far ahead jumpwise of the rest of the ladies field in the early 1980s.

She landed the first ladies 3T+3T at 1982 Jr. Worlds age 12.

At 14, she attempted 5 different triples at 1984 Worlds (not all successfully) at a time when most of the top ladies only had 2 or 3 different kinds.

Here's a cleaner LP with 5 different triples at 1984 Skate Canada, age 15

At 1984 NHK she attempted but fell on the 3A. She did land one in isolation at the NHK exhibition, which I'm not finding on video.

Thanks for posting those vids, @gkelly. I luurves some Midori Ito.

 

[Cachoo]

I have yet to hear a proper argument for this that isn't a thinly-veiled "but the Russians are winning everything!".

So, no.

I want two divisions but I don't want the young ones now in Seniors mired in Juniors. I still think the premier category will be the one with more difficult technical content. But if you had a separate category for older teenagers and women we could keep seeing MORE Russian and Japanese skaters. Both would be part of World's and the Olympics. Some will love the quad queens; some would love the artistry of the more seasoned skaters and some will love all of them. More Russians!!!!!!

 

[gkelly]

I want two divisions but I don't want the young ones now in Seniors mired in Juniors. I still think the premier category will be the one with more difficult technical content.

Or three divisions where there are now two?
Something like Developmental Juniors (ages 13-18, junior rules), Elite Juniors (ages 13-18 with senior rules including perhaps quads allowed in SP?), and Seniors (ages 18+)?

Or something like a Technical/Athletic Skating discipline where number and difficulty of rotated and landed triple and quadruple jumps account for by far the majority of the overall scores, and a more Technical/Artistic, one might say more Well-Balanced, discipline where difficult jumps are allowed but account for fewer than half of the total number of scored elements?

In the latter case, both could have the same minimum age limits, perhaps as low as 13, and no upper limit. The winners of Technical/Athletic discipline would tend to be in their early (if allowed in seniors) to mid teens among the female competitors and late teens among the male competitors, whereas the winners in the Technical/Artistic discipline would tend to be older. But a younger skater who excels most in blade-to-ice skills and interpretation or an older skater who excels most in jumps could choose the event that favors her/his own strengths. Appropriate names of disciplines TBD.

But if you had a separate category for older teenagers and women we could keep seeing MORE Russian and Japanese skaters. Both would be part of World's and the Olympics. Some will love the quad queens; some would love the artistry of the more seasoned skaters and some will love all of them. More Russians!!!!!!

Yes, more opportunities for federations with deep fields to showcase medal contenders in both senior/elite events. Also opportunities for individual skaters to compete against others with more similar body development and skill sets and to switch events as they age out chronologically or develop different strengths and weaknesses through experience, body changes, and wear and tear.

 

[Vase]

Higher age limit may help the younger skaters to improve skating skills, the artistry is disappearing with these quads.
Gifted in jumps they are, but I would love to see some good programs.
Have a separate competitions for younger skaters and quad jumps.

 

[just tuned in]

Yes. 18.

I long for the days when ladies were actually ladies on the ice. When women like Tonia Kwiatkowski and Katarina Witt and Josee Chouinard graced the ice and our television screens with maturity,sensuality,and class.

I attempted to watch the Grand Prix Finals and felt as though I was watching a regional Russian gymnastics competition. Little girls doing a unimportant moves with no relation to the music,audience, or the ice.

Rest in peace,ladies figure skating.

Bring back school figures while we're at it too.

-BB

I would love for skating to be more like ballet. There are no 13-year old prima ballerinas. Can you imagine?!? It requires years of training of proper technique.

 

[giselle23]

Could you imagine Kostornaia or a young Michelle Kwan or Mao Asada or even Carolina Kostner having to wait another two years to compete (in Kwan’s case- 4 years)?

I think 15 is a fine age. Like I’ve said elsewhere regarding the subject- some skaters are more than senior-ready by the time they are 15. Some still aren’t skating emotionally-geared programs into their late 20’s and early 30’s.

What I do think the ISU needs to consider is making the ladies/pairs PCS follow the same as the men. No more 80% of the total- just give them the full 100% and 1.0/2.0 factors.

Under the current rules, Michelle wouldn't have been eligible to compete at Worlds in 1996. I think the age for seniors should be 16 by the start of the season, whenever that may be.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Back in the day when Manuela Ruben of West Germany skated at the 1984 Olympics in Sarejevo, a friend of mine tricked me into thinking the skater was in her late forties. (Ruben was actually twenty at the time.)

1984 Winter Olympics - Ladies Figure Skating Free Skate Part 11

Manuela Ruben FRG

www.youtube.com

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'd still love to see a Junior Europeans and Junior Four Continents run in tandem with both senior event equivalents.

Junior Worlds never seems to get a great audience turnout, even though from a technical point of view, the level of competition is very strong.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I hear there is a toddler in Costa Mesa who can do a quad loop.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I still get a kick out of how the likes of Tatiana Malinina and Maria Butyrskaya had their best seasons in 1998/99, each at the ripe old age of 26.

 

[Seerek]

There is a European Youth Winter Olympic Festival in February in Sarajevo (odd numbered years).

 

[Orm Irian]

There is a European Youth Winter Olympic Festival in February in Sarajevo (odd numbered years).

That's nice for Europeans. Not much use for the rest of the world.

 

[giselle23]

On further thought, I think the age limit should definitely be 16 for senior competitions. I would like to see a date later than July 1. Maybe by the date of the first ISU event of the season? If this were the rule now, only Kostornaia of the Eteri 3 would be eligible. We would likely have seen her Medvedeva and Zagitova at Worlds. How much more interesting that would have been! The following year Anna and Sasha would be eligible. Would they still have their quads? Maybe, but they would be closer to being fully grown and would hopefully have developed more artistically. Any age limit is somewhat arbitrary and there are always some exceptions, like Michelle, who develop artistically at age 15.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Higher age limit may help the younger skaters to improve skating skills, the artistry is disappearing with these quads.
Gifted in jumps they are, but I would love to see some good programs.
Have a separate competitions for younger skaters and quad jumps.

The issue IMO is not age...but points. Adjust the points to reward actual artistry..line...musicality....you would see things change pretty dang fast. Look at the Canadian Jr Ladies Champ. She has great content and fab musicality...at what 14? She will have the money jumps down by 2022...and will still be 16.