Ashley Wagner reveals she was assaulted by John Coughlin

[RoseRed]

The setting, as described, was a party where there was lots of alcohol being consumed, so it's not unreasonable to think so, though there is no evidence one way or another on the current record.

But my point was that whether he had or not, based on his larger track record this wasn't a drinking-related issue, so discussions about whether more education needs to be had about drinking at parties, etc. doesn't really relate to the issue at hand, anymore than education about consent in relationships, etc. (beyond, I guess, all the people who think that it wasn't assault because he stopped after she challenged him; those people need reeducation).

The relationships thing is somewhat relevant to one of the stories told by the former skater Melissa Bulanhagui who spoke up after Ashley's article, about John's best friend (who coaches). Her tweets can be seen here: https://twitter.com/edges_of_glory/status/1157243822335619078/photo/2

 

[made_in_canada]

Also a lot of the discussion about drinking, etc. Granted, if viewed in isolation maybe Coughlin was drunk, but considering there's evidence of a pattern of behaviour at this point, I don't think that could reasonably be considered the deciding factor. This was who Coughlin was, drunk or sober.

IME, men who do things like try and have sex with women who are asleep/blacked out/otherwise incapacitated will do such things sober or drunk. They may be more clumsy or brazen if they are drunk but it’s not alcohol that “makes” them act like that.

 

[mpleaf4ever]

My parents were very open about sex for their day, my mother especially so. There was an older man who lived down the lane from us and he coaxed my friends and I over to his home to see his dogs - where he exposed himself to us. We were probably around ten at the time. None of us told! I suspect it went on with different neighborhood girls for years. As an adult I happened to mention what had happened and my dad was just devastated that he didn't know and was not able to do anything about it. Why didn't I tell? I am not entirely sure except I was so grossed out by the experience I just wanted to forget about it. Which obviously I didn't. Sexual predators seem to know that regardless of upbringing, telling is going to be a most uncomfortable discussion for a young person.

It's strange how we're almost conditioned to sweep this sort of thing under the rug. Not the same thing in terms of the creep-factor, but similar: When I was in elementary school a boy I was friends with exposed himself to me on the playground and I've never told anyone until right now. At the time I was embarrassed + I think probably also worried that I would get in trouble for going off with him or that someone would think I'd done something to make it happen.

 

[rfisher]

For those questioning why Wagner just came forward now, it seems she told the USFS back in February. She's just making it public now.

 

[mollymgr]

Tweet from US Figure Skating. Nothing very substantial in terms of a response to this after 24 hours.

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1157366573566500865?s=20

 

[BittyBug]

Tweet from US Figure Skating. Nothing very substantial in terms of a response to this after 24 hours.

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1157366573566500865?s=20

They are getting ratioed, and deservedly so.

 

[VGThuy]

Just thinking generally after reading a few posts touching upon these issues, I think there are two things to think about regarding sex, consent, and male-female interactions (not to take such a binary view on this, but I'm talking specifically about hetero cis-gender male-female interactions since that's the situation Ashley Wagner described). First is seeing the images we perpetuate and messages we send both men and women regarding sexual/relationship interactions that make it ripe for these things to occur. The second thing is that although we should recognize the role these images play in shaping our attitudes in these interactions, it is still important to make the aggressors responsible for their actions, as they truly are responsible for how they violated victims and the impact their actions have on them and nothing excuses that.

Regarding the first topic, the attitudes and images we perpetuate really do basically reduce women down to being their bodies and vaginas aka trophies, and men are seen as aggressive hunters who must win that "trophy". These attitudes, images, and messages can often be romanticized and thus create an attitude that women are a trophy for men to win and that men can do what it takes to win that trophy. One can see this toxic attitude seeping into so many of our messages, images, and stories that are told in life and we see the result in how men treat women in this country and practically every country, some of which are places where women really have a status of basically being nothing but objects for men to trade, sell, and own so they could treat women as they please. If we think about it and if we really reflect upon many of our past dating experiences to see how it's been played out against us or even played by us with varying degrees of severity, we see how this toxic attitude is so prevalent and normalized. This explains a lot of negative reactions to Ashley's story and many of the excuses being made towards Coughlin because the experience Ashley had does seem very normal and no big deal to a lot of people. That's how bad it is.

If you add "community" settings as explained earlier, like say a figure skating setting where male partners in ice dance and pairs teams have a bloated sense of self and entitlement because they were raised in an environment where they are valued more then women (we see this played out culturally outside of skating rinks every day) and often have their bad behavior excused or even seen as cute because they are such "cute" and "nice" boys while women do not tend to get this treatment at all as much more is expected of them regarding how they conduct themselves and they consequently do not get the same level of excuses or understanding but rather get blamed for exhibiting "bad behavior", then it just makes what already exists worse. I doubt Dalilah would have been so gung-ho if a female student of hers was accused of something bad and was reported by SafeSport and consequently killed herself. I often see boys coddled by adults (often female mother figures) in a way girls are not.

As for the second topic, because our attitudes towards women are so twisted, it's easy to see why a seemingly "nice guy" like Coughlin would think it's ok to sexually assault women because it's really just another extension of what he and other men (and women) are taught about male/female interactions, about how their worth, women's worth, and what they deserve. However, we all live in this society and many men would never do what Coughlin did. I bet many straight male partners would never think to do what Coughlin, Giuletti-Schmitt, and Varner did. So any talk about societal treatment of women should not be used in a way to excuse the actions of sexual assaulters. What Ashley described shows an incredible disregard for her well-being and value as a person by Coughlin. What Melissa Bulanhagui described also shows an incredible disregard towards women and her value as a person by Coughlin, Giuletti-Schmitt, and Varner. They should be taken to task for this and I don't have much tolerance for any poster trying to shame other posters for calling these men what they are based on their actions towards women. And we actually do not know how aware they were that their behavior was unacceptable but chose to conduct themselves in that manner any way. The only thing we do know is they committed great harm to others, and that's enough to take them to task.

 

[Willin]

TBH it's times like this where it becomes pretty obvious that USFS has no PR department - only a propaganda one. If their magazine/social media/website wasn't filled with flowery prose about how kind, talented, and perfect their skaters are I would think they had no one at all - just bots to post generic pictures and tweets.

I understand the purpose of canned statements (avoiding liability, fears of PR backlash, etc), but this is just outright tonedeaf. Tweeting a message that reads straight-up copy and pasted (sans words to name USFS) while not addressing major problems in reporting - like Sappenfield's social media posts and the baseball caps ETA: and at least one high profile skaters calling the accusers liars - appears and feels downright icky.

 

[MacMadame]

a figure skating setting where male partners in ice dance and pairs teams have a bloated sense of self and entitlement because they were raised in an environment where they are valued more then women (we see this played out culturally outside of skating rinks every day)

It's been mentioned that Pair/Dance boys are prized and given slack but actually pretty much any boys in figure skating are fawned over and given slack. So I do think this is a bigger problem than just 1 or 2 disciplines. Geoffry Varner was a single skater, for example.

 

[VGThuy]

It's been mentioned that Pair/Dance boys are prized and given slack but actually pretty much any boys in figure skating are fawned over and given slack. So I do think this is a bigger problem than just 1 or 2 disciplines. Geoffry Varner was a single skater, for example.

That's true. I just spoke about ice dance and pairs because it was the easiest example to show. I did state that this fawning of boys is prevalent everywhere.

 

[Yehudi]

Alexey Motorin, the founder of the InSkate app has well, I can’t say it. I ... (see his story).

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[insideedgeua]

That's true. I just spoke about ice dance and pairs because it was the easiest example to show. I did state that this fawning of boys is prevalent everywhere.

Not the quoted post in particular, but in general terms, can we also be careful of not casting a pall over all male skaters please.

Some men are abusers, some men commit assault. Most men don’t and I believe that most male skaters don’t.

Right now some of the comments in this thread cast all male skaters in the same light. This is not fair to them either.

By all means, talk about putting rules in place and educating all within the sport to put a stop to abuse, but don’t tar and feather all male skaters.

It’s hard enough to keep men in the sport. These sorts of sweeping statements about male skaters will also push good men out of the sport. Nobody wants to be assumed to be an abuser because of their gender and their sport.

 

[wickedwitch]

TBH it's times like this where it becomes pretty obvious that USFS has no PR department - only a propaganda one. If their magazine/social media/website wasn't filled with flowery prose about how kind, talented, and perfect their skaters are I would think they had no one at all - just bots to post generic pictures and tweets.

I understand the purpose of canned statements (avoiding liability, fears of PR backlash, etc), but this is just outright tonedeaf. Tweeting a message that reads straight-up copy and pasted (sans words to name USFS) while not addressing major problems in reporting - like Sappenfield's social media posts and the baseball caps ETA: and at least one high profile skaters calling the accusers liars - appears and feels downright icky.

USFSA PR has been terrible for years and years, to the point that I'm assuming that somebody higher up in the organization is a) limiting them from hiring someone decent or b) overseeing all somewhat major decisions and preventing any decent PR person from handling situations in a reasonable manner. I suspect option b.

 

[Japanfan]

One change in culture that IMO needs to happen: the relentless pressure on pairs and ice dance couples to have “chemistry.” This doesn’t start when they are seniors. It starts way younger. If you look at videos of Tessa and Scott as juniors they were doing that soulful look into each others’ eyes before taking the ice with Tessa’s by now familiar big happy grin while looking at Scott. Everyone thought it was so amazing. These are kids. I can see this leading to a lot of blurred boundaries and also pressure on the female to keep up a facade. It needs to change, full stop.

Interesting point. Is it not possible to develop chemistry and connection without them being sexually oriented? I think this would be easier in pairs than in dance.

The gendering of FS - particularly the sexual objectification of the female skater - is a related point. Teen girls are so heavily made up that it creeps me out. And sometimes younger girls skate to age-inappropriate programs, like 'Big Spender'.

I am not claiming that it happens often, but saying that it can’t happen is ignoring the small percentage of those to whom it did happen. Why is is ok to ignore falsely accused and not ok to ignore those who were abused? Any abuse needs to be thoroughly investigated. One can’t swing from one extreme to the other. The fact that allegations turns to be truth much more often does not make it right to pretend that it is ALWAYS true.

Of course all abuse needs to be thoroughly investigated. However, the number of people falsely accused of sexual assault is far smaller than the number of people who are assaulted and smaller than the number of people who report their assault. One reason is that assault situations tend to often be 'he said, she said'. The more important reason is that people who report assault tend to not be believed or taken seriously, and

Also, not wearing makeup or dressing comfortably is not the same thing as not looking pretty.

Yes!

 

[zebraswan]

Alexey Motorin, the founder of the InSkate app has well, I can’t say it. I ... (see his story). I wonder if his good buddy and partner Rogonov has a similar attitude b

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Wow, I had no idea he was such a tool. What would he possibly know about what happened? Was he there that night?

I think (hope) Rogonov is at least classy enough to not make such controversial statements on his SM. And I prefer to give everyone the benefit of the doubt unless they expose themselves as an idiot like this. Being friends with someone doesn't mean you are just like them. Just as John's friends were surely not all cut from the same cloth as him.

 

[Japanfan]

at this.. what a crazy 'article'

No reason to doubt Ashley Wagner’s #MeToo story – but accusing a dead man will always anger people

By waiting until seven months after his suicide to accuse fellow US skater John Coughlin of sexual abuse in 2008, Ashley Wagner has created an avoidable cloud of questions about her story, timing and motives.

www.rt.com

I mean...

"His family, already aghast that the investigation against him was dropped unresolved after his passing, will suffer further anguish at hearing about him in another round of humiliating stories. Wagner gets to be questioned as a bandwagon-hopping opportunist rather than a whistleblower, a bystander who launched a late tackle, not a hero. "

... what the actual...

Bandwagon-hopping opportunist?

Although Ashley didn't explain why she came forward now and not earlier, I would assume she was not ready to until now and respect that. She should be commended for coming forward at all. She has her own anguish - the anguish of Coughlin's family is not her problem.

ETA: She actually did explain, I forgot that for a moment. It was a 13 year old girl becoming the National champion. Ashley is right to be concerned about the need to protect a teen who is still pretty much a girl from sexual harassment and assault.

 

[muffinplus]

Alexey Motorin, the founder of the InSkate app has well, I can’t say it. I ... (see his story).

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WTF is wrong with... people like him.

 

[VGThuy]

Interesting point. Is it not possible to develop chemistry and connection without them being sexually oriented? I think this would be easier in pairs than in dance.

I actually think a lot of successful ice dance teams don't really exude romantic or sexual heat, but people sort of project that image any way even in small doses.

 

[VGThuy]

WTF is wrong with... people like him.

Also, I wonder what he did to make himself so worried about a situation he's not involved with.

 

[rfisher]

Bandwagon-hopping opportunist?

Although Ashley didn't explain why she came forward now and not earlier, I would assume she was not ready to until now and respect that. She should be commended for coming forward at all. She has her own anguish - the anguish of Coughlin's family is not her problem.

She told USFS back in February. She only went public now. They've known for months and said and did nothing. Maybe it was the lack of action on their part that prompted her to go finally go public.

 

[Yehudi]

I prefer to give everyone the benefit of the doubt unless they expose themselves as an idiot like this. Being friends with someone doesn't mean you are just like them. Just as John's friends were surely not all cut from the same cloth as him.

Yes. I edited my post because I realized it sounded like another lynching ala Weaver.

 

[Japanfan]

It's strange how we're almost conditioned to sweep this sort of thing under the rug. Not the same thing in terms of the creep-factor, but similar: When I was in elementary school a boy I was friends with exposed himself to me on the playground and I've never told anyone until right now. At the time I was embarrassed + I think probably also worried that I would get in trouble for going off with him or that someone would think I'd done something to make it happen.

I back-packed rough through Europe in my 20s, with a friend. Sometimes we just slept outdoors to save money on accommodation. One morning we woke up to see a man standing nearby, playing with himself.

I haven't thought of this in many a year. In reflecting on it now, I realize that we weren't particularly disturbed by the situation, although we did want to get the hell out of there as fast as we could.

I'm troubled that as a young woman, I saw that behavior as sort of 'normal'. I really, really hope the same would not be true for a young woman today.

 

[muffinplus]

Also, I wonder what he did to make himself so worried about a situation he's not involved with.

Sounds like his sense of masculinity got threatened..did you hear how he said he felt sorry for the "men of the US"?

 

[maatTheViking]

Alexey Motorin, the founder of the InSkate app has well, I can’t say it. I ... (see his story).

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I only made a sad like on this post because there is no angry face. Awful. Sounds like MRA crap, the usual lies - poor men, women make up stories to attack men, feminism is ruining everything etc etc

 

[MacMadame]

Every time I click on that link, I just see a bunch of photos.

 

[muffinplus]

Every time I click on that link, I just see a bunch of photos.

It's in his Instagram stories (click on circle profile pic)

 

[barbk]

It's in his Instagram stories (click on circle profile pic)

Apparently, you have to have an Instagram account to see the stories. Pics are available, but not the stories.

 

[Japanfan]

nm

 

[Orm Irian]

Interesting point. Is it not possible to develop chemistry and connection without them being sexually oriented? I think this would be easier in pairs than in dance.

The existence of sibling dance pairs and mixed-orientation dance pairs (eg the Shibutanis, Karina/Manta, Papadakis/Cizeron) suggests that it's completely possible.

 

[Japanfan]

The existence of sibling dance pairs and mixed-orientation dance pairs (eg the Shibutanis, Karina/Manta, Papadakis/Cizeron) suggests that it's completely possible.

What's a mixed-orientation dance pair? Are you referring to sexual orientation?