Ashley Wagner reveals she was assaulted by John Coughlin

[genevieve]

Ok this is apropos of nothing but since I have been following the feeds of some figure skaters today ... cannot help but notice how many young, pretty female figure skaters favor a no makeup/track pants look off the ice. In fact there are a few I need to do a double take to see if it’s really them. I cannot help but wonder if so many of them favor this look off the ice bc they associate the dolled up competition look with something traumatic/uncomfortable. I have worked with enough survivors of sexual abuse to know this is a common reaction. De-sexualize yourself. Dress baggy, with no makeup. Don’t look pretty.

OR, women who have to wear a shit ton of makeup and ultra-bling for their job just like having the freedom to not do that when they are not working. I was a performer for years and almost never wear makeup outside of the stage.

I don't recall ever seeing a skater dressing so far down to seem like it is a reaction to anything. I don't spend time looking for skater candids, so feel free to correct me if anyone has been dressing like an Olsen twin, but I've only seen female skaters look like conventionally well-presented women.

Also, not wearing makeup or dressing comfortably is not the same thing as not looking pretty.

 

[hanca]

So you are basically using the "Not all men" argument but in a different way. Congratulations.

No, what I am saying is that it is dangerous to assume that every allegation is true. Even if statistic say that it is more likely to be truth, it still doesn’t mean that every allegation is true. Being abused can seriously damage someone’s life, but so can being falsely accused. I understand why cases like Nassar make people completely swing the opposite way, but reading at this forum that if someone didn’t do it, he wouldn’t be accused just doesn’t sit right with me. Tell that to the men in the article I attached above.

 

[Vagabond]

No, what I am saying is that it is dangerous to assume that every allegation is true. Even if statistic say that it is more likely to be truth, it still doesn’t mean that every allegation is true.

Do you think that this is not commonly understood?

 

[mpleaf4ever]

a lot of skaters don’t do normal schooling; they get home schooled and their social environment is the skating rink.

Eh...my kids are homeschooled and (at ages 9 and 10) they understand consent. I'm hard-pressed to believe that it's beyond the comprehension of teenagers and young adults.

 

[hanca]

Do you think that this is not commonly understood?

Obviously not, otherwise there wouldn’t be posts such as post number 112 on this thread, which 15 people liked. They all seem to think that people don’t get falsely accused.

 

[Vagabond]

Obviously not, otherwise there wouldn’t be posts such as post number 112 on this thread, which 15 people liked. They all seem to think that people don’t get falsely accused.

Or they all seem to like the fact that the poster was telling off FSU's most notorious troll.

Regardless, here's Post #112. I have put what I consider to be the salient point in bold face.

If you live an honorable life and don't go around abusing other people, then nobody is going to accuse you of such things when you're dead. Case in point: Denis Ten. And if you want to stick around to defend yourself, then don't commit suicide.

Nobody who spoke out has anything to gain from false accusations. Ask yourself why so many women would want to smear the reputation of a "good man," either dead or alive, while making themselves targets for more online harassment.

Although one can take issue with the wording or content of the first paragraph (though the fact that the poster was referring to accusations made after someone's death seems to have escaped you), it seems clear to me that the poster in question was saying that no one who spoke out about John Coughlin, i.e., Wagner, Namiotka, and those whose names have been withheld by their attorneys and/or SafeSport, have anything to gain from false accusations.

That sounds reasonable to me. Does it sound unreasonable to you?

 

[believed]

To put the very low possibility that an allegation is false on the same par as very real allegations is incredibly harmful to victims and is another reason why they often do not report.

 

[CaliSteve]

Who is Logan Bulanhagui mentioned in her post?

Its Logan Guilete Schmitt. Melissa's twitter feed gives the details.

https://twitter.com/OfficialJadaKai/status/1157041930494103552

 

[rosewood]

Thanks for the explanation @Zemgirl @CaliSteve. I understood the whole story of Bulanhagui by reading the tweets you guys provided me.

 

[rfisher]

And, notice for all those who think ice dance and pairs skating provides a culture for abuse, neither Ashley nor Melissa were partnered with those they are naming. It's not ice dance or pair skating that's the problem.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And not just in movies, Lady Willpower anyone?

Or Young Girl?

Bulanhagui tweeted that Coughlin's best friend Varner abused her. Varner was quoted extensively in the Kansas City Star article published after Coughlin committed suicide:

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article226196295.html

including,

“You know, we spoke every day. I called him every day. We texted every day,” Varner said of the entire tragedy. “When he first got the accusation — he had received the formal letter in the mail — I don’t want to say he was OK with it; he was confident that through this new system of SafeSport that the truth would come out and it would be dropped. … We just talked about the situation and thought there was nothing that could come about it.”

and

It was then that Varner told him to call him immediately if it all seemed too overwhelming, and and he was thinking of “doing anything stupid.”

Varner tried to encourage him.

“And I also said to him,” Varner said, “If they’re adding things to the list that are completely ridiculous, you should feel confident. They were almost trying to add, add, add because they knew nothing was going to stick.”

Could have been a crock to keep his friend from suicide, or could have been Varner had reason to believe that, structurally, Coughlin (and he) were Teflon.

The biggest difference between Nasser and Coughlin, was that, due to a garbage truck coming late, police found hard drives full of child pornography in Nasser's garbage cans, and it was no longer decades of she said/he said or whether local police or prosecutors or clubs or coaches or university presidents or parents-who-were-friends-of-the-victimizer or sports federations were making the decisions and allocating resources.

Most of Nasser's victims who spoke at his sentencing hearing were coming forward at the last minute to speak, and the volumes of women who came public -- not the number who were victimized -- were a great surprise to the prosecutors; the judge extended the hearing to allow all willing to speak.

It took Denhollander to break the dam. Wagner may have done the same, and USFS should be in the same boat as USA Gymnastics, IMO, or even worse, since SafeSport has already evaluated USFS culture.

 

[hanca]

Or they all seem to like the fact that the poster was telling off FSU's most notorious troll.

Regardless, here's Post #112. I have put what I consider to be the salient point in bold face.

Although one can take issue with the wording or content of the first paragraph (though the fact that the poster was referring to accusations made after someone's death seems to have escaped you), it seems clear to me that the poster in question was saying that no one who spoke out about John Coughlin, i.e., Wagner, Namiotka, and those whose names have been withheld by their attorneys and/or SafeSport, have anything to gain from false accusations.

That sounds reasonable to me. Does it sound unreasonable to you?

I am more concerned about this bit from the same post "If you live an honorable life and don't go around abusing other people, then nobody is going to accuse you of such things when you're dead." Living honourable life didn't help Brian Banks, did it? He still was accused. He even was convicted and yet he was innocent. Living honourable life didn't help all those men accused by Carl Beech either. Some of them died without being able to clear their names.

 

[Vagabond]

I am more concerned about this bit from the same post "If you live an honorable life and don't go around abusing other people, then nobody is going to accuse you of such things when you're dead." Living honourable life didn't help Brian Banks, did it?

Brian Banks was accused of rape during his lifetime, so I don't see how this has to do with Post #112, which is the post with which you are taking issue. In fact, unless someone on my Ignore List has already mentioned Banks, you are the first person to do so in this thread.

 

[puglover]

I have not been involved with young skaters for many years but there was a time, at least in our section, where even the programs given to young girls were quite suggestive. Also, I can't remember what it was called but they had fun competitions where a piece of music was selected and then skaters were brought out one by one to interpret and skate to it. My son was really good at it and won some big competitions in the States. However, locally it just got bizarre with almost strip music being selected. Watching a bunch of kids do hip thrusts was very disconcerting. I was sitting next to another mother once and we both remarked that if someone walked in, not being from skating, and saw this - they would be appalled. I think "culture" is a big word and lots of aspects of protecting young skaters needs to be constantly reevaluated.

 

[hanca]

Brian Banks was accused of rape during his lifetime, so I don't see how this has to do with Post #112, which is the post with which you are taking issue. In fact, unless someone on my Ignore List has already mentioned Banks, you are the first person to do so in this thread.

I am talking about false allegations. The post clearly implied that false accusations don’t happen. I named examples showing that it does.

 

[BittyBug]

And, notice for all those who think ice dance and pairs skating provides a culture for abuse, neither Ashley nor Melissa were partnered with those they are naming. It's not ice dance or pair skating that's the problem.

It's not clear to me that this should be the logical conclusion. While Ashley and Melissa were not pairs or ice dance partners, the skaters who allegedly abused them were.

As others have mentioned in this thread, there is a significant power imbalance between male and female skaters in pairs and dance, and it seems entirely possible to me that this imbalance could lead some male pairs and dance skaters to conclude that they are entitled, not only to their pick of partner, but also to other things that they want. In their role as a skating partner, male skaters are extremely desirable, and they are frequently coddled by coaches and the institution of figure skating as a whole because male partners are in short supply. Bad behavior* is routinely tolerated because they are a precious resource, so is it not possible that these make skaters could extend their sense of privilege to believe that they should be desirable overall, including sexually, simply because they are male? It's the power imbalance that creates a culture that is ripe for abuse, and that power imbalance is most prevalent in two facets of skating - partnered disciplines and coaching.

*How many accounts have we read (or personally witnessed as I have) of male pairs or dancers physically assaulting their female partners, without more than a tsk tsk from the coach? No, it's not universal behavior, and yes, such behavior is being tolerated less, at least in the US thanks to Safe Sport, but it still happens.

 

[Rock2]

Do you think that this is not commonly understood?

Not in the least. When these things happen, I find most comments to be very one-sided, in favor of one of the parties involved. Relatively few posts strain to find objectivity, such as 'hey this is probably true but let's not be hasty yet and let the process play out before we unleash our hatchets'.

The side of the fence most are sitting on is usually quite clear from Day 1, and is influenced by how you already feel about this issue regardless of those involved, and/or your ingoing thoughts about the parties involved.

Me, I tend to believe the woman but do try to hear everyone out. There is just so little benefit and so much heartache involved in going public with this. It seems like you're doing more for other women than yourself. You could tell Ashley was NOT comfortable in front of the camera on this. Real courage.

 

[Vagabond]

I am talking about false allegations. The post clearly implied that false accusations don’t happen. I named examples showing that it does.

I think you are reading more into the post than is there.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Anything is acceptable between fully consenting adults.

Not quite, depending on your geographic location. In Canada you cannot legally consent to assault in the BDSM context. So 2 people may have an agreement that one can flog the other and leave marks, but it is not legal and the consent argument becomes null and void if it is brought to the attention of the authorities.

From the Huffington Post Canada:

Adding further complexity is the fact that any violence associated with BDSM is, technically, illegal in Canada. As Brenda Cossman wrote in the Globe and Mail this week, "The Supreme Court has said that a person cannot consent to an assault that causes bodily harm .. So, if a sexual activity causes bodily harm, a person cannot consent to it."

 

[nikjil]

I'm reading this thread at the same time that I am reading a trial transcript in a rape case and both are making me really angry.

I don't care about fantasies, mixed signals, or any of this other nonsense. Ashley was 17, John was in his twenties. There is a crime called statutory sexual assault. It is based on the premise that adults are the responsible ones and minors are incapable of consent. I don't care what anyone thinks Ashley may or may not have been doing, the onus was on John as the adult not to have sexual contact with minors.

I can't tell you how many cases I see in a year where it takes time for people to report sexual assault and time for them to realize what happened to them was sexual assault and not your fault. I just read a twenty-page withering cross-examination of a victim covering the length of her skirt, how much she had been drinking, her behavior in locking herself in a room after the assault rather than running out of the house, the delay in reporting to the police, and the fact that she was angry rather than crying on the witness stand. It is 2019, it is time to stop victim-blaming and start believing women.

In terms of institutional culture, I remember a conversation I had in the early 2000s with someone who was either an adult skater or the parent of a skater at UDel (I can't remember which). Many of the top foreign pairs and dance teams were training there and the person complained to the rink director about witnessing male partners physically abusing their female partners. The rink director explicitly refused to take any actions, he felt that what happened between partners was none of his business. I was sick. I told the person that the next time she witnessed something to call the police. I don't know if she ever did.

 

[Andora]

It's not clear to me that this should be the logical conclusion. While Ashley and Melissa were not pairs or ice dance partners, the skaters who allegedly abused them were.

As others have mentioned in this thread, there is a significant power imbalance between male and female skaters in pairs and dance, and it seems entirely possible to me that this imbalance could lead some male pairs and dance skaters to conclude that they are entitled, not only to their pick of partner, but also to other things that they want. In their role as a skating partner, male skaters are extremely desirable, and they are frequently coddled by coaches and the institution of figure skating as a whole because male partners are in short supply. Bad behavior* is routinely tolerated because they are a precious resource, so is it not possible that these make skaters could extend their sense of privilege to believe that they should be desirable overall, including sexually, simply because they are male? It's the power imbalance that creates a culture that is ripe for abuse, and that power imbalance is most prevalent in two facets of skating - partnered disciplines and coaching.

This! This whole situation really brings this into light. Just thinking back to random complaints about certain male ice dancers who treated their multitude of partners as replaceable garbage, or the pair skaters who were cruel to their own partners in view of others, etc. The culture has long, long been there, and I think people outside of the sport, or those who don't otherwise make their living within it, have commented on this since I've been chatting about skating online.

Even giving John the absolute best benefit of doubt, considering he came up in this culture and would have an over-inflated sense of self, it still doesn't excuse him. You have to think enough of his victims said "no" for him to know his actions weren't invited. The picture becomes much, much more predatory as time goes on, and I think skating's culture allows for that-- and it's definitely not relegated to USFS only. But we put young girls on ice and ask them to do adult technical skills, and often skate to adult music portraying adult themes, and sometimes they do this with a male partner.

So I'm glad more women are speaking up. I hope the dam bursts. I hope more young women in the sport feel empowered to speak up, to say no and demand they feel safe. I'm sure it's going to get uglier, and maybe the sport undergoes serious changes. Whatever it takes.

And an aside, I must be in a small group for being sympathetic to the skaters who initially showed support and grief for John in January. I've had friends accused of sexual assault, both proven false and otherwise, and I understand the instinct to believe your friend, someone close to you. In the case of Gracie Gold, maybe he was someone very important to her in recovery. It becomes another loss for them, this person they all felt so strongly for pulled the wool over their eyes too. Ashley's graciousness should be an example to many.

 

[Coco]

I have always suspected that homophobia and the need to prove that you are not gay causes a lot of young men to commit sexual assault. If I'm right on that, I would imagine this is an even bigger problem in the figure skating community given the teasing that is often directed at young men in our sport.

 

[PRlady]

I'll go out on a limb and say that any young person who spends most of his/her time in a cloistered environment of one sort or another -- not necessarily elite sports -- is going to be much more likely to be emotionally immature and inexperienced for his/her age. (Coming from someone who went to a parochial high school.)

The boys in skating are fawned over and made to think they're all that if they're pair or dance skaters, and the girls are decked out like gorgeous little Christmas trees to perform, and the coaches are frequently young, and boys without much dating experience can figure out that it's easier to pick on younger females. That's a lot of negative cultural impact, right there.

 

[Vagabond]

Not in the least. When these things happen, I find most comments to be very one-sided, in favor of one of the parties involved. Relatively few posts strain to find objectivity, such as 'hey this is probably true but let's not be hasty yet and let the process play out before we unleash our hatchets'.

People are entitled to form opinions without waiting for there to be a legal judgment. I say this as one of my brothers is scheduled to go to trial a week from Monday on charges of solicitation of an eleven-year-old girl via computer and transmitting to her material of a sexual nature. Although the evidence against him is overwhelming and was largely detailed in a newspaper article in the victim's home town, I have relatives and family friends who think that we should all wait till there is a verdict before speculating as to his guilt or innocence.

Believing an accuser is not the same as always believing accusers. Believing the accused is not the same as always believing those who are accused.

How many posts can you find here on FSU to the effect that either accusers or the accused never lie? Very few, I think.

 

[puglover]

I would hope that we could reach a point where it is possible to still care for someone accused as well as, in this case, grieve for them, without joining in any attack of the accusers or appearing in any way to trivialize the allegations. I thought some skaters did just that. You can only really speak to your own experience with a person, but be wise enough to realize others may have had a very different experience.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Not quite, depending on your geographic location

And in contexts, like in some intra-student university policies , where explicit re-consent is required for each act, which precludes a sleeping or drugged person, even if pre-arranged between them.

There is a crime called statutory sexual assault. It is based on the premise that adults are the responsible ones and minors are incapable of consent

And in Colorado, consent between a 17-year-old and anyone within a decade older is legally recognized in statute. There may be professional and membership policies and rules against those relationships, some depending on whether all parties are covered (like teacher/coach and student), but they aren't legal statutes nor considered crimes if violated. ETA: Or jurisdictions where relationships between people of specifically defined unequal power are illegal under separate laws, regardless of age, for example, teacher and student.

This law applies to consensual sexual acts, not what Wagner, Namiotka, or Bulanhagui describe.

 

[platniumangel]

I think all sports organizations and high schools should require mandatory education on consent and what a LEGAL relationship involves.

In my opinion, Nobody over the age of 18 should be dating someone under the age of 18.... Especially if they enter in to a sexual relationship. However, if a high school senior dates a high school freshman (non-athletes) how can we tell a 18/19-year-old male skater that he can’t date a 14 or 15-year-old female skater? Or vice versa. It gets complicated but maybe set/clear rules need to be established, along with mandatory training for the skaters themselves.

I just feel that things get really messy when you have a minor/adult relationship even if it’s only several years difference, and then add in consent issues? It’s just best to steer clear of everything and have some black-and-white rules to follow.

 

[natsulian]

My thoughts concerning the Ashley Wagner and Coughlin case:

Unfortunately, a few individuals do not understand what sexual assault is. Let us consult the dictionary as to what constitutes to sexual assault:

“Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.”

Now, let me ask those who are confused, was it the verbiage? The concept? Well, let me explain it plain and simple: Coughlin touched Wagner inappropriately and sexually without having asked for her consent. Already, that is sexual assault. Secondly, those who are STILL confused might say, “But he stopped when she asked him to.” To that I say, did he ALREADY BEGIN touching Wagner BEFORE she said stop? The answer is: yes. Thus, by the simplest definition of what sexual assault is, Wagner was sexually assaulted and regardless of your viewpoint on either her or Coughlin, you cannot refute that.

Now, let us move onto the topic of, “Why did she wait so long?” Statistically speaking, most sexual assault survivors are simply afraid and do not talk about the trauma until very much later. However long is dependent on the individual. Furthermore, if you had not noticed, for the better part of human history, women have been taught that THEIR body, THEIR voice, THEIR being is NOT THEIRS. This toxic mentality (especially in the Asian community) has led to so many cases where women felt as though it would be BETTER to remain silent for fear of persecution. Thus, IT IS commendable when a woman comes forward and IT DOES show courage and bravery. For them, it might have been the most bravest thing they had ever done in their life.

Women should NOT have to live in fear and I urge the powerful women of today to live fearLESSLY because time is up on the ignorant fools who take advantage of others using fear, power, and authority. Those who take advantage of others in such a manner are cowards.

Last but not least, I urge everyone (including myself) to better understand where these ladies are coming from so that we can prevent such atrocities from occurring in such a rife manner. Also, let us try to understand the mindset of these predators so that we can teach those around us to look for the warning signs and get them the help they need as well. Let us educate ourselves and learn from the mistakes of the fools so that we can become wiser. That is all I have to say on the Wagner and Coughlin case. I send nothing but love and positivity towards Wagner for being so brave.

 

[ballettmaus]

In my opinion, Nobody over the age of 18 should be dating someone under the age of 18....

My grandmother was 17 and my granddad 19 when they got engaged. Their marriage lasted over 50 years, until her death.

 

[muffinplus]

at this.. what a crazy 'article'

No reason to doubt Ashley Wagner’s #MeToo story – but accusing a dead man will always anger people

By waiting until seven months after his suicide to accuse fellow US skater John Coughlin of sexual abuse in 2008, Ashley Wagner has created an avoidable cloud of questions about her story, timing and motives.

www.rt.com

I mean...

"His family, already aghast that the investigation against him was dropped unresolved after his passing, will suffer further anguish at hearing about him in another round of humiliating stories. Wagner gets to be questioned as a bandwagon-hopping opportunist rather than a whistleblower, a bystander who launched a late tackle, not a hero. "

... what the actual...