Ashley Wagner reveals she was assaulted by John Coughlin

[SHARPIE]

I have deleted several posts in this thread.

 

[JJH]

@SHARPIE - Thank you

 

[Japanfan]

With all that has been said and done surrounding #metoo in the last couple of years, I wonder when we will move on from the blame game. It's time to educate EVERYONE. Thoroughly. And discuss solution without blaming. Myself included. We need to start from square one and move forward.

If a person has sexually assaulted another and caused that individual to experience emotional trauma, blame is appropriate.

I am thinking if constant contact with lots of young females, esp physical contact in pairs may have created an environment where a young male may be getting a skewed sense of right and wrong re women.

A young male doesn't learn about right and wrong sexual behavior through physical contact. He learns about it at home, at school and in his social environment. A teenage boy is totally capable of understanding what constitutes acceptable sexual behavior.

 

[jlai]

a lot of skaters don’t do normal schooling; they get home schooled and their social environment is the skating rink.

 

[MsZem]

Melissa Bulanhagui's post about Coughlin and the culture of the rink they trained at is shocking and very sad.

It's horrifying. I knew she had some challenges on the skating side during her career, but to think of her dealing with sexually predatory behavior as well is heartbreaking. It looks like she's been able to move on with her life, and I'm happy for her. But how many other girls have dealt with similar things? How many skaters have been made to feel unsafe in this sport?

Women like Ayn Rand and that 50 Shades “author” have written scenes of rape and coercion that were read as sexy by many. Rape fantasies have a long history, Germaine Greer wrote about it with great insight in The Female Eunuch.

There's nothing wrong in indulging in fantasy, even if badly written; the world would be much better if some people stuck to that. As you wrote, what people like as a fantasy, or as consensual role-playing, can be very different from what they want in reality.

 

[Japanfan]

a lot of skaters don’t do normal schooling; they get home schooled and their social environment is the skating rink.

Children who are home schooled still have social environments. The rink is a social environment.

The home is also a social environment, and offers many and ongoing opportunities for education.

If a skater is home schooled and spends most of his/her time at the rink, it is not an excuse for sexually inappropriate behavior in any way. Students are (hopefully) expected to behavior in a sexually appropriate manner at school, so the same should be true of the rink of other social environments.

Also, adults are expected to guide children in learning appropriate behavior. That responsibility is a serious one for parents, and not a whole lot serious for coaches.

 

[Frau Muller]

USFS apparently didn't listen when there were previous complaints about Coughlin's behavior. I hope they're listening this time, but what happened to Ashley might not have happened if they'd taken some meaningful action a long time ago.

If I were a USFS official, I’d be concerned. VERY concerned. Dalilah too.

 

[hanca]

If you live an honorable life and don't go around abusing other people, then nobody is going to accuse you of such things when you're dead. Case in point: Denis Ten. And if you want to stick around to defend yourself, then don't commit suicide.

Nobody who spoke out has anything to gain from false accusations. Ask yourself why so many women would want to smear the reputation of a "good man," either dead or alive, while making themselves targets for more online harassment.

I find this post pretty extreme. Claiming that there are no false sexual allegations is as irresponsible as failing to acknowledge when sexual abuse happens. Just the other side of the extreme. While false sexual allegations may be rare, they do happen. Like this recent case. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49074879

 

[Frau Muller]

...I sincerely hope that Sappenfield has been removed from her coaching post at the World Arena and will be subject to an investigation as well...

BINGO! Absolutely.

 

[JamieElena]

Agree. And also, maybe some have in fact apologized to Ashley. And if they have, why do some think we all have a right to that knowledge? None of this is helpful.

This - it's none of our business - those skaters don't owe us an apology or need to make a public apology. I would hope they'd make apology to any victims they know closely to their FACE - which would be far more genuine and meaningful than a tweet. "Cancelling" skaters because they didn't "come correct" publicly is not helpful at all.

 

[viennese]

I believe that it happened. I also think it could have been misinterpreted signals.

Misinterpreted signals? When a girl or woman in bed asleep, what signal is she throwing off?
To a decent person, it is "I want to sleep"

 

[rfisher]

Women like Ayn Rand and that 50 Shades “author” have written scenes of rape and coercion that were read as sexy by many. Rape fantasies have a long history, Germaine Greer wrote about it with great insight in The Female Eunuch.

But there is very little crossover between fantasy and reality. I might have wanted to be an elegant depressive like Dominique at age 14 when I read The Fountainhead. It didn’t mean I wanted to be raped in my bedroom by Howard Roark.



I was a 70s teenager who dressed up and went to midnight shows, except I hid out in the lobby for the cannibalism scene. Frank was a comedic version of all those suave movie seducers showing some poor repressed woman her real sexuality. And not just in movies, Lady Willpower anyone?

Again, no one models themselves on Frank in real life, it’s a scyfi sendup fantasy.

Just for the record, there is no rape in the Fifty books. In fact, the key theme is about mutual consent. That was about the only thing about the BDSM lifestyle she got right..

 

[clairecloutier]

Here’s a link to the NY Times article that was mentioned above: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/...html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

 

[Firedancer]

Poor Ashley! It is so brave of her to tell her story. I can’t imagine having to compete and be at other events with him for years afterward. I hope she is getting the love and support she needs.

 

[angi]

This - it's none of our business - those skaters don't owe us an apology or need to make a public apology.

I disagree, since they made their grief and support of an abuser so very public the only good thing that can come out of it is if they own up to their mistakes and apologize publicly. It's the only thing that will send a message to his victims and other victims of sexual abuse who had to watch their favorite skaters act the way they did.
I don't expect every skater to take a stand and be a part of this conversation, but those who chose to be so public with their support (and make no mistake, it was a choice, there are many ways to grieve someone suspected of doing horrible things that do not include supporting him on a public platform) need to be just as public with admitting their wrongdoings.

 

[UGG]

I find this post pretty extreme. Claiming that there are no false sexual allegations is as irresponsible as failing to acknowledge when sexual abuse happens. Just the other side of the extreme. While false sexual allegations may be rare, they do happen. Like this recent case. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49074879

That’s sort of an extreme case, very different from a girl claiming sexual assault. That story is actually insane though.

 

[UGG]

Those tweets back from January defending John did not age well...

 

[MK's Winter]

If I were a USFS official, I’d be concerned. VERY concerned. Dalilah too.

Sappenfield has a lot to answer for. I would be stunned if she hasn’t been under investigation. Coaches, judges, and officials know these parties happen. They also happen at competitions overseas. Where are the adults........

 

[MsZem]

That’s sort of an extreme case, very different from a girl claiming sexual assault. That story is actually insane though.

Yes, a more appropriate example would be something like the Brian Banks case. But the reason such cases stick in our minds is that they're unusual, given that the vast majority of accusers are telling the truth.

 

[kittysk8ts]

If a person has sexually assaulted another and caused that individual to experience emotional trauma, blame is appropriate.

Yes, of course, of course, apologies if I caused offence to anyone. I really just meant that regarding this particular situation, there has been ample discourse and blame and perhaps time to look forward with a view to healing victims and putting safeguards in place for the future. Instead of hunting down instagram and twitter comments from 6-7 months ago and then hovering to see if anyone has publicly apologized.

 

[rosewood]

Melissa Bulanhagui's post about Coughlin and the culture of the rink they trained at is shocking and very sad. For those who cannot access it, she says, in part:

I actually grew up and trained along side John Coughlin from the age of 14 while John was 19. We trained together for 4 years. He manipulate and groomed so many of the other girls I trained with. Skating was the sort of unsafe environment that allowed incidents like this [the one Wagner described] to be pushed under the rug. (https://twitter.com/SkatingLesson/status/1157096039993794561?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet).

Bulanhagui goes on to mention Coughlin calling her when she was fifteen and talking to her sexually, and her being so young and naive she didn't respond, and of him stroking her legs when they were alone together in a way that made her feel uncomfortable. She implies that other, younger girls at the rink, had it worse. Like Wagner, and inspired by her, she is looking for a thoroughgoing change in the way the sport is administered so that others do not experience what she did. Kudos to them both.

Who is Logan Bulanhagui mentioned in her post?

 

[canbelto]

One change in culture that IMO needs to happen: the relentless pressure on pairs and ice dance couples to have “chemistry.” This doesn’t start when they are seniors. It starts way younger. If you look at videos of Tessa and Scott as juniors they were doing that soulful look into each others’ eyes before taking the ice with Tessa’s by now familiar big happy grin while looking at Scott. Everyone thought it was so amazing. These are kids. I can see this leading to a lot of blurred boundaries and also pressure on the female to keep up a facade. It needs to change, full stop.

 

[ZilphaK]

Misinterpreted signals? When a girl or woman in bed asleep, what signal is she throwing off?
To a decent person, it is "I want to sleep"

Agreed.

I've been married almost 25 years and have, I would like to think, a fairly normal and healthy and respectful relationship with my husband, in every way.

I can tell you, I still get ticked off when my husband's toe accidentally wanders over to my side of the bed and wakes me from a dead sleep. That's just the pure annoyance of being woken from being asleep.

If some other couples have a pre-arranged SPOKEN and mutual understanding of what is OK or not OK and have given each other consent to play "pretend I'm Sleeping Beauty and you're the sweaty huntsman" that's one thing.

But the situation Ashley tells about is nowhere near and nothing like either of these situations.

 

[hanca]

That’s sort of an extreme case, very different from a girl claiming sexual assault. That story is actually insane though.

Well, it may be extreme case, but the point still stands - it is wrong to pretend that ‘ALL sexual allegations are true because why would the person lie’. It is as wrong as pretending that ‘it couldn’t happen because he is such a nice guy’.

 

[MsZem]

Who is Logan Bulanhagui mentioned in her post?

It's mentioned in another of her tweets - retired ice dancer Logan Giulietti-Schmitt.

 

[angi]

Well, it may be extreme case, but the point still stands - it is wrong to pretend that ‘ALL sexual allegations are true because why would the person lie’. It is as wrong as pretending that ‘it couldn’t happen because he is such a nice guy’.

Even just making this comparison in the same post is doing a disservice to the subject. Look for the statistics on this matter. False accusations, especially those who are officially filed to the police are extremely rare. On the other hand, people turning out to be abusers when they were viewed as "nice people" beforehand are much more common.

 

[clairecloutier]

An interesting thread from ice dancer TJ Carey that addresses the institutional issues in figure skating that may make skaters particularly vulnerable to sexual abuse:

https://twitter.com/dutchtogolden/status/1157274933501841410

 

[hanca]

Even just making this comparison in the same post is doing a disservice to the subject. Look for the statistics on this matter. False accusations, especially those who are officially filed to the police are extremely rare. On the other hand, people turning out to be abusers when they were viewed as "nice people" beforehand are much more common.

I am not claiming that it happens often, but saying that it can’t happen is ignoring the small percentage of those to whom it did happen. Why is is ok to ignore falsely accused and not ok to ignore those who were abused? Any abuse needs to be thoroughly investigated. One can’t swing from one extreme to the other. The fact that allegations turns to be truth much more often does not make it right to pretend that it is ALWAYS true.

 

[rfisher]

Anything is acceptable between fully consenting adults. The key words being fully consenting adults. Children cannot give informed consent. People under the influence of alcohol or drugs cannot give informed consent. People who are sleeping cannot give consent, informed or otherwise. Inappropriate touching without consent is battery. Assault does not require physical harm, but only the threat of harm. Groping someone in their sleep certainly implies a threat and meets the definition of battery as well.

We teach our imaging students to be very careful in how they approach a patient. They can never, ever threaten to restrain a patient. If a patient says stop the procedure, they stop the procedure because the implied consent has been revoked. Sexual assault and battery is no different. Sexual consent can be revoked at any point. Failure to stop on the part of one party can be assault and/or battery.

But, the far more troubling aspect of the Coughlin case, to me anyway, is there seems to have been a history and knowledge of that history. Which means responsible parties, be they coaches, club officers, rink officials, or the USFS, knew or should have known what was occurring and didn't act. This is precisely what SafeSport said in their report. They uncovered a culture of abuse. They made that public and the USFS should have made a more open response. Especially, in light of what has happened to US gymnastics. I suppose they feared a similar problem including financial loses and hoped it would not be that big of an issue. I think they made a big mistake that goes back for decades.

 

[angi]

I am not claiming that it happens often, but saying that it can’t happen is ignoring the small percentage of those to whom it did happen. Why is is ok to ignore falsely accused and not ok to ignore those who were abused? Any abuse needs to be thoroughly investigated. One can’t swing from one extreme to the other. The fact that allegations turns to be truth much more often does not make it right to pretend that it is ALWAYS true.

So you are basically using the "Not all men" argument but in a different way. Congratulations.