The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[VGThuy]

Since there are multiple patterns allowed in the RD next year do we know how the key points will work? It must be difficult for the judges to have to watch so many different dances with different key points, how will they compare them?

I think the judges will treat them like the partial step sequences and just look to see if teams are doing the required amount of difficult turns and doing them cleanly while continuously being in hold set to the one the prescribed rhythms. They're not skating to one of the prescribed patterns of one of the prescribed rhythms.

 

[sharsk8s]

I think the judges will treat them like the partial step sequences and just look to see if teams are doing the required amount of difficult turns and doing them cleanly while continuously being in hold set to the one the prescribed rhythms. They're not skating to one of the prescribed patterns of one of the prescribed rhythms.

From my understanding they must do a prescribed pattern but they have an option as to which. I don't remember all the options but I think they can do a polka or a foxtrot

 

[levineismine]

I heard from a couple of ice dancers that there has been talk at 4CC of including the finnstep as a pattern for everyone next year, so maybe the free pattern is not happening after all (or not completely).

 

[RoseRed]

From my understanding they must do a prescribed pattern but they have an option as to which. I don't remember all the options but I think they can do a polka or a foxtrot

No, what was originally announced was that they would create their own pattern based on one of a few rhythms (polka, blues, march, quickstep, foxtrot), not skate that prescribed pattern.

Based on what @levineismine has heard, that may have changed, but they were never going to use multiple prescribed patterns.

 

[VGThuy]

From my understanding they must do a prescribed pattern but they have an option as to which. I don't remember all the options but I think they can do a polka or a foxtrot

The reason why I didn't read it as such because they would have named the prescribed patterns as each pattern has a specific name. They did not. They just said "The Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence skated to one of the following Rhythms: Quickstep, Blues, March, Polka or Foxtrot." So it made it sound like the partial step like in 2015-2016 where there was no Non-Touch sequence but a full partial step where they had to do it to a "Foxtrot, March, Polka" rhythm.

However, if there was talk at 4CC of adding the Finn Step as a pattern for everyone, maybe the ISU will change their mind about that, but like RoseRed, I really doubt they meant multiple existing prescribed patterns was being offered as options and teams could just pick one.

 

[sharsk8s]

The reason why I didn't read it as such because they would have named the prescribed patterns as each pattern has a specific name. They did not. They just said "The Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence skated to one of the following Rhythms: Quickstep, Blues, March, Polka or Foxtrot." So it made it sound like the partial step like in 2015-2016 where there was no Non-Touch sequence but a full partial step where they had to do it to a "Foxtrot, March, Polka" rhythm.

However, if there was talk at 4CC of adding the Finn Step as a pattern for everyone, maybe the ISU will change their mind about that, but like RoseRed, I really doubt they meant multiple existing prescribed patterns was being offered as options and teams could just pick one.

Thank you for clarifying, that makes much more sense. I think it would be really interesting to see teams come up with their own patterns but that seems very difficult. I wonder if any of them would become official patterns in the future (like the tango romantica, golden waltz, etc.)

 

[thvu]

Thank you for clarifying, that makes much more sense. I think it would be really interesting to see teams come up with their own patterns but that seems very difficult. I wonder if any of them would become official patterns in the future (like the tango romantica, golden waltz, etc.)

It has already happened. Two of the partial step sequences from the 2015-2016 Short Dance have been adapted into patterns that could appear in future RDs.

 

[Cayuse]

Thank you for clarifying, that makes much more sense. I think it would be really interesting to see teams come up with their own patterns but that seems very difficult. I wonder if any of them would become official patterns in the future (like the tango romantica, golden waltz, etc.)

I think that is the point of having the teams create their own patterns. The powers that be are looking for some new patterns to officially adopt.

 

[Dobre]

If they do change the plan to the Finnstep or a different prescribed pattern, I am curious what type of discussion had caused the change.

 

[starrynight]

If they do change the plan to the Finnstep or a different prescribed pattern, I am curious what type of discussion had caused the change.

It would be a judging mine field for starters. I would predict a lot of controversy around skaters deliberately designing patterns to hide weaknesses etc which means that it wasn’t a case of apples vs apples. There would be fights that x teams’ pattern is easier etc. (And then add in the GOE).

Also I think that it might cause some difficulties for ice dance teams who don’t have the money to pay for a specifically crafted pattern and that might create inequalities.

The way the RD plan was expressed I could only see it resembling the old ‘original dance’ — which was great, but it’s not a compulsory dance.

I’m sure that a lot of coaches just simply don’t want to have to choreograph a different new pattern for every team and then also have to do a free dance as well. We’ve already seen several teams have the same one foot sequence in the FD.

That said, while I can see the difficulties in each team having their own pattern, it would have been interesting to witness the spectacle of it all.

The Finnstep seems a bit ... well recycled though??? We used that at the 2014 Olympics and it kind of seems a bit too recent to reuse. So many of the current teams have already done SDs to it.

 

[RoseRed]

It would be a judging mine field for starters. I would predict a lot of controversy around skaters deliberately designing patterns to hide weaknesses etc which means that it wasn’t a case of apples vs apples. There would be fights that x teams’ pattern is easier etc. (And then add in the GOE).

Also I think that it might cause some difficulties for ice dance teams who don’t have the money to pay for a specifically crafted pattern and that might create inequalities.

The way the RD plan was expressed I could only see it resembling the old ‘original dance’ — which was great, but it’s not a compulsory dance.

I’m sure that a lot of coaches just simply don’t want to have to choreograph a different new pattern for every team and then also have to do a free dance as well. We’ve already seen several teams have the same one foot sequence in the FD.

That said, while I can see the difficulties in each team having their own pattern, it would have been interesting to witness the spectacle of it all.

The Finnstep seems a bit ... well recycled though??? We used that at the 2014 Olympics and it kind of seems a bit too recent to reuse. So many of the current teams have already done SDs to it.

I'm not sure about this. Skaters/their teams always have to be able to come up with step sequences anyways, 2 for the FD and sometimes both a partial step and no-touch step sequence for the RD.

 

[starrynight]

Yes, but all choreography isn't created equal.

I don't think this pattern is the same as the step sequences tucked away into FDs. The judges want something so distinctive that it could be turned into a pattern dance. There's nothing much I've seen in free dance step sequences recently that resembles anything as instantly recognisable and complex as a Finn Step or a Tango Romantica.

The difference is that this pattern is going to need to be the focus and definition of the rhythm dance program the same way that the Tango Romantica set pattern is now. And it's not even the same as last time there was a 'create a step sequence' in 2015/2016 because teams still needed to do the set pattern.

I think that a few teams and choreographers are going to come up with something amazing and then there will be a lot of teams just doing a bunch of turns and steps to music that blend into nothing recognisable. I just do wonder how it will work in terms of which teams get what.

And we all know in ice dance that people want the teams to win who have the best choreography.

 

[VGThuy]

Coaches and choreographers and teams had to choreograph their own partial step sequences when they are required elements so I don’t see why making teams do their own patterns would be more onerous. The only difference between next season and the typical SD/RD is that next season got rid of a prescribed pattern thus killing the compulsory part. Teams had to choreograph their own sequences anyway especially back in 2015-2016 where they adopted two partial step sequences as patterns for the future.

Anyway it’s a sport, so obviously not all sequences will be equal. That’s what competition is all about.

 

[clairecloutier]

I kind of hope they do use the Finnstep, as the plan to have everyone create different pattern dances never made much sense to me anyhow. I mean if you're going to use a compulsory in the RD, then pick one. Otherwise, just drop the idea of a compulsory and make it the original dance again, as someone else said. I do like the idea of new compulsories, however, it seems like compulsories are barely hanging on as it is, when you consider the compulsory last year was less than 20 seconds long, therefore it doesn't seem like a high priority for the ISU to create new compulsories. And didn't they already earmark a couple of recent dances to be turned into new compulsories, but we haven't seen either yet in competition? I seem to remember both Gilles/Poirier and Kaliszek/Spodiryev patterns being designated as future compulsories?

 

[starrynight]

My view is that it will have the effect of turning the RD into another free dance by removing the compulsory pattern.

The combination of no pattern, the potential for some teams to 'hack' the requirements by doing steps tailored to their own strengths and the +5 GOE all could create a perfect storm.

It's the kind of thing that I would like to see.. but I know that it will cause drama.

@clairecloutier Yes, I believe those new patterns are being used by juniors.

But I don't think I want to see the Finnstep so soon. It seems only a second ago we saw them all at Sochi. Silver Samba maybe? I did like the Yankee Polka .. but that was used recently too.

I did go and look through the list of compulsory patterns and there's a lot of waltzes (we did that in 2015/2-16) and we did latin theme last season and we can't do another tango...

We really do need new patterns. It would be great to get something fresh and modern.

But there are so many problems with using a season of competition as an experiment when a lot is on the line for teams.

 

[VGThuy]

I think it's less of a FD and more of a OD, but then with IJS, what's the difference these days really?

 

[nimi]

IAnd didn't they already earmark a couple of recent dances to be turned into new compulsories, but we haven't seen either yet in competition? I seem to remember both Gilles/Poirier and Kaliszek/Spodiryev patterns being designated as future compulsories?

I think the KaliSpo creation is called the Tea Time Foxtrot, and IIRC it's the RD pattern for juniors next season. (I think there was some talk about that pattern in this very thread, but lord only knows how many pages ago...)

 

[Bigbird]

So just for clarity what are the five required elements of the RD for next season? Please and thank you

 

[starrynight]

@Bigbird As far as I am aware they haven't announced anything other than it being a 'pattern dance type step sequence' to Musical/Broadway/Operetta theme skated to one of the following rhythms: quickstep, foxtrot, blues, march or polka.

I imagine we could expect to get the announcement probably at Worlds like what happened last time?

 

[Bigbird]

@Bigbird As far as I am aware they haven't announced anything other than it being a 'pattern dance type step sequence' to Musical/Broadway/Operetta theme skated to one of the following rhythms: quickstep, foxtrot, blues, march or polka.

I imagine we could expect to get the announcement probably at Worlds like what happened last time?

Thank you

 

[Colonel Green]

Seeing as we can be, uh, reasonably confident about the winners of the Worlds gold, when was the last time that the junior and senior dance champs had the same coaches? If it has happened before (I'm guessing it has), not for a long time. My knowledge of coaching arrangements only goes back so far, but it looks like not in the 21st century at least.

Another feather for Marie-France's cap.

 

[barbarafan]

Seeing as we can be, uh, reasonably confident about the winners of the Worlds gold, when was the last time that the junior and senior dance champs had the same coaches? If it has happened before (I'm guessing it has), not for a long time. My knowledge of coaching arrangements only goes back so far, but it looks like not in the 21st century at least.

Another feather for Marie-France's cap.

Well for the school anyway....large team of coaches etc. and I believe Romain may have been main choreographer for them although it was a collaboration of several. end result...a masterpiece of junior skating. Some amazing skating shown this morning..a treat to watch

 

[Colonel Green]

Well for the school anyway....large team of coaches etc. and I believe Romain may have been main choreographer for them although it was a collaboration of several.

Romain was the choreographer.

I just use "Marie-France" as a shorthand for the entirety of Gadbois.

 

[barbarafan]

Romain was the choreographer.

I just use "Marie-France" as a shorthand for the entirety of Gadbois.

Got it. TKs.....just like to give credit where it is due...Sam always adds special touches too.

 

[starrynight]

I hope something interesting happens at Worlds in dance, rather than a pre-determined GOE engineered ranking.

 

[VGThuy]

I hope something interesting happens at Worlds in dance, rather than a pre-determined GOE engineered ranking.

"Something interesting" in dance usually means like unexpected falls or near zero credit for an element or something...

 

[starrynight]

I'd just at least like the teams on the podium to have done better in the levels than the teams who didn't podium.

 

[nimi]

"Something interesting" in dance usually means like unexpected falls or near zero credit for an element or something...

Speaking of unexpected falls.... Was anybody in the building for Jr Worlds FD who saw what actually happened in the exit of Gropman/Somerville's rotational lift (https://youtu.be/6pw9HXOgGSU?t=79)? Because the cursed cameraman didn't let us see skaters' feet/legs during lifts -- or during large chunks of step sequences, for that matter -- and the slo-mos didn't include the exit, it's hard to get a clear picture of the (presumed) fall. I can see that there's a loss of balance and his hand touches the ice, and the protocol shows a fall deduction with lift GOEs from -2 to -3. So, was it clearly a fall and not just a stumble but because it happened in the exit and not in the middle of the lift, the GOE damage isn't as bad as it could be?

 

[Dobre]

I hope something interesting happens at Worlds in dance, rather than a pre-determined GOE engineered ranking.

"Something interesting" in dance usually means like unexpected falls or near zero credit for an element or something...

The bronze medalists from Russian Junior Nationals just finished above both other Russian teams at Junior Worlds.

The 4th place finishers from the JGPF finished atop the Junior World podium.

There were no splats and no drastically fizzled twizzles among the top teams. One of the "cleaner" skated Junior Worlds I've seen. But the pattern took a few prisoners. I don't remember feeling like the Junior patterns were scored tough during the regular JGP; but it seems like the callers may have taken their cue this post season from the senior ones. Anyway, the RD rather than the free matched the final results on this year's Junior Worlds podium. I have a feeling the pattern may take a few prisoners among the top teams at Senior Worlds as well.

 

[Dobre]

A few other thoughts on the JW repercussions . . .

Lajoie & Lagha get their top 24 SB spot. (Looks pretty safe, as they are in 21st, and I can only think of @three senior teams headed for Worlds that I can fathom getting onto the list). So I would guess this translates into two locked spots on the GP for them, as they were already very likely to get a host spot.

Khudaberdieva & Nazarov take out Shevchenko & Eremenko; but miss the top 24 score, leaving both teams now just a hair off the list. I do not know what is likely to happen with these bubble Russian teams now next season. Russia currently has spots #25, 26, 27, and 31. Shall we flip a coin & see who gets onto the GP? If Ushakova & Nekrasov don't move up, I'd think there would be room for at least one of these bubble teams; but now K&N have the highest score among these teams, yet they finished behind S&E at Russian Junior Nationals and the JGPF. Curious what will happen there. (And, really, if Popova & Mozgov get their ______ together, they could defeat either of these teams in the pre-season).

Because the cursed cameraman didn't let us see skaters' feet/legs during lifts -- or during large chunks of step sequences, for that matter

Or both skaters on the twizzle sequences! Absolutely infuriating. Reviya starts mucking up the twizzle sequence, and the cameraman/woman leaves him and follows only her. Ahh!

So, was it clearly a fall and not just a stumble but because it happened in the exit and not in the middle of the lift, the GOE damage isn't as bad as it could be?

It was plenty bad considering they had a higher base value than the 4 teams who finished ahead of them. Sigh, first Junior Worlds nerves. Learn from the experience. Meanwhile--I love Demougeot & Le Mercier--but they had three glaring errors here and still finished 8th above teams they lost to earlier in the season. Lucked out in the RD as a few seconds earlier, and that trip would have been costly. But how they got away with mucking up the free as well...?