The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[Dobre]

You see. A completely different reaction. Sarah Rasher wrote a good blogpost recapping the 96 Worlds and talking about why she appreciated their sexy tongue & cheek approach to the Latin FD. I wish I could link it, but it was on her old site so I can't find it. (I do not share the same opinion with a good number of Sarah's reviews, but we did both like that program. Not one of my very favorites, but definitely higher up on the list for me than either Fred & Ginger or Prelude & Allegro. Though I do like the latter as an example of their evolution as a team).

 

[VGThuy]

I remember Chris Dean waxing poetic about G/P's Prelude & Allegro FD at the 1992 Olympics, which I always thought was entertaining knowing what was going to go down two years later. I just love the content of that FD and felt G/P were strongest with Dubova. I would have placed their 1992 Olympic FD second behind Klimova/Ponomarenko and ahead of Usova/Zhulin. The problem with the tongue & cheek Latin medley is that I really don't think it was choreographed well and didn't think Oksana or Evgeny danced it particularly well either. That music edit was super obnoxious and those costumes were worse.

 

[chameleonster]

You see. A completely different reaction. Sarah Rasher wrote a good blogpost recapping the 96 Worlds and talking about why she appreciated their sexy tongue & cheek approach to the Latin FD. I wish I could link it, but it was on her old site so I can't find it. (I do not share the same opinion with a good number of Sarah's reviews, but we did both like that program. Not one of my very favorites, but definitely higher up on the list for me than either Fred & Ginger or Prelude & Allegro. Though I do like the latter as an example of their evolution as a team).

https://www.sportsblog.com/thefiner...huk-platov-and-bourne-kraatz-1996-free-dance/
I believe this is what you're talking about?

We don't always agree on everything, but I always appreciate their often atypical preferences, especially when it comes to ice dance.

 

[Dobre]

That music edit was super obnoxious and those costumes were worse.

Yes, I get that you didn't like it.

Not really my point though. My point is that opening up a new fan base and trying something outside a team's wheelhouse is often not appealing to the original fan base. I think this is sadly why we lose a lot of programs early in the season.

Especially when teams have to go through feedback at various Champs Camps where cultural norms can lead to negativity very early in the feedback process. And by cultural norms I would include "U.S. Ice Dance" norms, "Canadian Ice Dance" norms, "Russian Ice Dance" norms, etc. Wouldn't it be interesting if teams could debut their programs in front of an international Champs Camp where you could hear from Russian, French, Italian, Canadian, & U.S., Asian, etc. committee members. Get that wider perspective.

I think a greater variety of programs might survive and thrive. You might get one negative voice but a lot of positive ones or a wider array of responses.

 

[VGThuy]

But don't you think that when G/P changed their style with Tarasova, most of their fanbase were happy? I mean other than St. James Infirmary which was choreographed by Shanti Rushpaul, I wouldn't say their Linichuk programs were that different from one another. They all seemed to be constructed very similarly to one another. The difference was with the costuming and music.

 

[Dobre]

But don't you think that when G/P changed their style with Tarasova, most of their fanbase were happy?

Personally, I've always thought it was Tarasova's special gift. To take a champion level athlete or team and make them even better.

As far as the larger fanbase goes, I honestly don't know. I wasn't online during their early career so I don't know if the same fans mostly stuck with them. I know some posters from 1998 were fans all the way through. But I don't know who disappeared. (I figure some probably did the moment Oksana re-dyed her hair. On such monumental technical & artistic decisions do figure skating fans sometimes fall in and out of love).

 

[MarieM]

Personally, I've always thought it was Tarasova's special gift. To take a champion level athlete or team and make them even better.

As far as the larger fanbase goes, I honestly don't know. I wasn't online during their early career so I don't know if the same fans mostly stuck with them. I know some posters from 1998 were fans all the way through. But I don't know who disappeared. (I figure some probably did the moment Oksana re-dyed her hair. On such monumental technical & artistic decisions do figure skating fans sometimes fall in and out of love).

Ah no. Always loved them, despite some of the very bad FDs they've had to do because of rules at that time.
They were phenomenal skaters, even more live. Oh those memories !

Tarassova made them skate more in the spotlight. She made sure everyone had to twizzle, and that was Oksana's strength. I don't think she gave them good material but for 97.

 

[Dobre]

I actually really like Memorial Requiem. His knee was not OK that season so it is not as balanced technically as most of their material. But I really like the program.

It took me a while though. I remember being disappointed at first. (The costumes & packaging felt too Bolero to me upon first viewing. That was all just the superficial, however. And the intricate footwork--which I always loved--had been replaced by highlight elements). But it was the kind of program that grew on me the more I watched it. This is also an interesting phenomenon: some programs grab you right away and lose their spectacularness over time. Others stick with you all season. But others you come to appreciate a lot more as you rewatch & see the details and how the program builds as a whole. The latter, I assume, happens a lot with one's favorite teams because most things you love about the team are still there no matter the program.

(I so did not mean to drag this thread off into a discussion of Grishuk & Platov. Sorry guys).

 

[cocotaffy]

I had the same feeling last season with my own personal reaction to Papadakis & Cizeron's SD. I really liked it. Absolutely my favorite program by them since their Finnstep back in 2014. This definitely seemed to be the opposite reaction to most P&C fans, who largely seemed to feel like it was P&C's weaker program for the season. My guess is that most P&C fans do not consider it to be one of their "Greatest Hits." But I really liked it. It drew from a different fan base.

I didn't get this impression at all actually. On a personal level, I loved that SD, it was refreshing and infectious, they clearly had lots of fun skating it and broke their so-called SD "weakness" thanks to it. From the reactions in the different fan threads, RIP FSU P/C fan thread , most fans did embrace it. I think the mix reactions came from critics who thought their SD was not latin but not from the fans. Their weakest SD was the Swing one because they never managed to make it a cohesive piece which is usually their biggest strength and the reason why so many love P/C, they always manage to make their programs, whether an SD/RD (well let's see the tango) or an FD, a whole cohesive piece. They even managed to do that with Oddudua and that 2nd part which was really a challenge imo.
Anyway, as for widening the fanbase, it shouldn't be an objective of an ID team otherwise they'll get lost trying to please everyone. Just try to push yourself without losing your identity as a team is the challenge but it should be done regardless of what the fans or the critics think and of course trying to push what the judges are ready to accept from a team.

 

[Miloune]

RIP FSU P/C fan thread ,

I was gone 2 days only to find this great mess when I came back yesterday. Like, WTH happened people? Why are some of us so nuts??!! Anyway, if the closing of the thread can help to calm down the atmosphere at the moment I'm all for it...

 

[Miloune]

It was confirmed in l'Equipe that P/C are competing in Grenoble.

 

[Bigbird]

Yeeesss!!

 

[taz'smum]

It was confirmed in l'Equipe that P/C are competing in Grenoble.

I can't wait to see them live, as it was 2012 the last time I saw them live!

 

[Escarbille]

Newspaper L'Equipe today :

" Guillaume Cizeron is recovered from a back injury that deprived Gabriella Papadakis of the NHK Trophy last week.
The three-time world champion Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron had to withdraw from the NHK trophy last week because of the dancer's back pain. Everything is better for the duo. "They have started again since Monday the programs in full with all the elements," explains their coach Romain Haguenauer. Papadakis-Cizeron will be competing in Grenoble for the Grand Prix de France on 23 and 24 November."

 

[Peepsquick]

I can't wait to see them live, as it was 2012 the last time I saw them live!

I wish I could ... we are counting on all of you Lucky Ones to tell us ALL about it!

 

[Jeanne7]

That's great news. Can't wait to see their new programs

 

[bwayrose7]

You see. A completely different reaction. Sarah Rasher wrote a good blogpost recapping the 96 Worlds and talking about why she appreciated their sexy tongue & cheek approach to the Latin FD. I wish I could link it, but it was on her old site so I can't find it. (I do not share the same opinion with a good number of Sarah's reviews, but we did both like that program.

Not trying to be pedantic, but I believe Sarah uses they/them pronouns!

(I so did not mean to drag this thread off into a discussion of Grishuk & Platov. Sorry guys).

Always a good tangent to get on

 

[mjb52]

I was pretty biased against G & P back in the day as I was both mad about their win in '94 and a big K & O fan, but looking back I think Memorial was an incredible program even though I'm not sure they ever 100% nailed it (would have to go back and re-watch - was there a timing issue with this one or was that the program from the year before?).

 

[Dobre]

No, there was no timing issue in Memorial Requiem at the Olympics.

At the end of their Worlds Performance of Arabian Passion from 97, it appears that they miss the end of the music. They do end the program later than they did at Europeans. Though I remember reading that there was actually the sound of a soft wind blowing at the end of the program, which did not come across on TV. Regardless, it was not at the end of Memorial Requiem.

(Note: Tracy's commentary during their Olympic performance of Memorial is incorrect. There was no lift planned at the end. They had had one there in an early rendition of the program during the season & taken it out, I believe prior to Europeans. Which was good, IMO. Made the program flow better).

 

[VGThuy]

I was pretty biased against G & P back in the day as I was both mad about their win in '94 and a big K & O fan, but looking back I think Memorial was an incredible program even though I'm not sure they ever 100% nailed it (would have to go back and re-watch - was there a timing issue with this one or was that the program from the year before?).

I think the GPF performance was the closest to them nailing it at 100%:

https://youtu.be/Th0zMycdYeo

I remember Tarasova looking a bit disappointed after their Euros performance but her dramatically crying tears of relief and joy at the end of their Nagano performance but I didn't really see a difference between the two performances. I guess not making a major error at the Olympics makes it a much bigger deal.

 

[Dobre]

The Olympic performance was definitely my favorite. To me the build of the program is its brilliance.

I haven't rewatched the GPF version in years. Again, I can appreciate the GPF version as an evolutionary step along the way; but many of the elements in that version halted or disrupted the flow. The elements that reached the final version all contributed to the impact of the entire piece as a whole.

Kind of like watching the Shibs' versions of Paradise at Rostelecom or the GPF. Grishuk & Platov and Tarasova were still experimenting with the pieces at the GPF. What they tried helped lead to the ultimate result, but it's the final result that leaves me .

By Europeans, the program was very close. Only one element is distinctly different. But the Europeans version had a glitch or two so it is the Olympic one I love and rewatch the most.

For me, it's not only a matter of the significance of the event of making history in that Olympic moment. I love their Rock Around the Clock FD and their upset at the Olympics, but I always rewatch the version from Europeans because I think it was their best performance of that program during the season. I'm sure for G&P (and their coach), the fact that they performed their 98 FD so well at the Olympics was a huge part of the emotional reaction. Those Olympic moments. They are a culmination of a career. Years & years of hard work, staying together, injuries, coaching changes, leaving your country to train, facing down the competition--all that. But I also think their Olympic performance was their best of Memorial.

 

[deegee]

Yep all the goods ones this season are from Romain. Fear&Gibson's FD, the RD for Smart&Diaz. Really, he has interesting ideas (always had) but it's been a long time since any skaters has done a good job with his ideas. Mozart BTW was his idea.

was he responsible for del/schoe's programs prior to great gig in the sky and post merlin? i adored those od's and fd's!

 

[VGThuy]

Kind of like watching the Shibs' versions of Paradise at Rostelecom or the GPF. Grishuk & Platov and Tarasova were still experimenting with the pieces at the GPF. What they tried helped lead to the ultimate result, but it's the final result that leaves me .

I still think the Skate America version was the best version.

 

[firstflight]

Yet another interesting result from such an interesting dance season so far! http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gprus2018/gprus2018_IceDance_RD_Scores.pdf

First, you have to scroll pretty far down to see the team with the highest base value in the RD- a *gasp* Marina team. Second, C/P is now the third of the three young US teams in position to medal, which never would have been seen as a likelihood before the season started. Third, and most obvious, the jockeying for Russian number 1 will continue with the relatively weak RD performance by S/B.

 

[starrynight]

Looks like it will be the second Grand Prix event in a row where the winners got a base level and a level 1 in the RD pattern.

I really hope that the Russian media interview a coach about this. It fascinates me how the teams can't get the levels. Why? Is the Tango Romantica ridiculously difficult? Are the teams not seriously trying to get the levels?

 

[muffinplus]

Ok I like Stepanova/Bukin programs and packaging but they really shouldn't be scoring as high as quite a few other teams who still have better skills ( I don't mean at Rostelecom)... I mean, they are really bringing it, yes, but I cannot get away from Stepanova's skating skills. Judges clearly don't care though

 

[Bigbird]

She can't help that. Their team is smart, they always show them off to their maximum advantage. She is also very elegant and has energy and confidence to burn, it would be rather very difficult for the judges to deny them their high scores. In my book, they've earned it.

 

[topaz]

Ok I like Stepanova/Bukin programs and packaging but they really shouldn't be scoring as high as quite a few other teams who still have better skills ( I don't mean at Rostelecom)... I mean, they are really bringing it, yes, but I cannot get away from Stepanova's skating skills. Judges clearly don't care though

I agree and it may be because they are a russian team. S/K are better skaters as a team than S/B and they are more polished/detailed than S/B. GPF will be interesting.

Also, S/B are getting PCS scores and GOE that are way beyond their ability and what they are performing with a weaker skilled partner(Alexandra S). Averaging 9.5 points for SS, Composition and 9.68 for INt. That's too high.

 

[muffinplus]

She can't help that. Their team is smart, they always show them off to their maximum advantage. She is also very elegant and has energy and confidence to burn, it would be rather very difficult for the judges to deny them their high scores. In my book, they've earned it.

Should they score above a clean Hubbell/Donohue or the Italians or SinKats ( if all skate cleanly)? Not in my book, but they are definitely building their rep and i think judges are signaling that they will

 

[topaz]

She can't help that. Their team is smart, they always show them off to their maximum advantage. She is also very elegant and has energy and confidence to burn, it would be rather very difficult for the judges to deny them their high scores. In my book, they've earned it.

Alexandra has energy and charisma but she's not elegant. Also, in specific elements yeah the judges can deny them the high scores. This is ice dance, edge quality matters. Knee bends matter. Dancer qualities like extension and toe point matter. She can look sloppy at times. The exits out of the lifts can be sloppy and look labored. These things should effect the GOE, but they are not.