UPDATED: Jason Brown to Brian Orser (official)

[Firedancer]

I finally had time watch Jason’s FS and I have to admit I really don’t like it. I understand he is reworking his jumps but the missing jumps really didn’t make a difference. The music for most it is just depressing and not Jason at all. And choreographically it felt like any music could have been playing bc what he was doing was not connected to the music at all.

 

[Tavi]

I see your point and might have agreed 5 years ago but the quad isn’t optional any longer - whether he lands it or not, it’s gotta be in the program just like the triple axel. He needs to get it in there and deal with it when he doesn’t land it, make it part of his program every time.

I agree that he needs to learn how to continue with the rest of the program after a fall on his opening quad. He did that really well in his 2017 Worlds FS, for example.

But the situation is different here. In 2017 he was with his long time coach, doing a program he knew very well, and coming off a pretty successful season, albeit one punctuated by injury. Now he’s with a new coach for the first time in 18 years, they’re completely reworking his jump technique, and he’s coming off a terrible season. This is the first time Rohene hasn’t choreographed his FS in years, and he’s self-admittedly very slow to learn choreography. Add to that the baggage he brings to the quad in general, and I think that at this point in the season, there’s a lot working against him being able to just deal with the quad.

Also, in my experience, when you’re learning how to do something physical, it’s important to build correct muscle memory in order to be consistent. If you build muscle memory of the wrong way to do something (ie, the way that causes you to fall), it’s sometimes hard to undo.

Anyway, that’s JMO, and we’ll see what Tracy and Brian and Karen decide, and where he’s at, at Skate Canada.

 

[aftershocks]

ITA @Tavi and @Firedancer.

I am just a fan who loves Jason Brown. I support him in the changes he's made to improve his competitiveness. I root for him to realize his full potential.

I have never been this opposed to any music Jason has ever skated to. For me this fp music simply doesn't make sense for Jason. I even thought about other possibilities and I offered alternative music suggestions in this thread, so I'm not just tearing him down critically. I'm emotionally involved in Jason's skating as a fan who has followed his career since he was in Juniors. Some people posting may just be casual observers of Jason, or fans of Orser, Wilson and Wilson. And that's fine. Still, I don't see anyone who has yet made a credible case for what this fp music is about for Jason.

As I mentioned earlier, a skater being motivated by their music is more than half the battle in figure skating competition. It's much harder to get through a program and to perform it well technically and emotively if you aren't connected at all to the music. So Jason went along with the free program after voicing his hesitation about the music. They completed the choreo and maybe Jason decided he likes the choreo, but the choreo isn't connected well to the music either. And the costume is random and unenhancing too. It's going to take too much wasted energy IMHO for Jason to try to make this program work. But yeah, we wait and see what Jason and his new coaching crew decide.

As far as I'm concerned, they may as well revisit one of Jason's prior successful fps (either Liebestraume, or The Scent of Love from The Piano -- the latter program Jason has obviously used several times, and it is a great program). Switching to something Jason has great muscle memory for might be the best option for this season going forward. It would probably help free Jason up mentally and physically to concentrate more on the new technique he's learning.

 

[Tavi]

^ Unfortunately, he cant just go back to an old program because this season, programs are 30 seconds shorter, one less jump, etc., and since Rohene is on tour with Holiday on Ice, he wouldn’t be around to tweak it. The other thing is, since they’re redoing his jump technique, the muscle memory from the way he’s always done things may not help.

I personally would love to see a new program to Flow Like Water, but I’m pretty sure that won’t happen.

 

[alj5]

I'm also not a fan of this free program. I don't mind the music per se, but the combination of pieces just doesn't feel like a cohesive program. The short program is great though!

 

[el henry]

About Orser´s support team and Brown picking up Medvedeva (and her mother) from the airport, I´m sure that happened because Brown wanted to do it... What a great opportunity for him to become friends with a Russian star!

About training in Toronto I think that for Medvedeva things will be a lot easier, because she is 5 years younger, will be only 19 in November.

To me Brown´s S&G music is not that much different from his previous freeskate music in recent seasons.

I'm sorry, but do you *really* think Jason picked Zhenya up at the airport because it was an opportunity to "become friends" with a "Russian star"?

Whatever you think of his skating, Jason Brown is, by all accounts, one of the most genuine and friendly people on the planet. He would probably pick *me* up at the airport, and I am neither Russian nor a star

 

[Rock2]

I'm sorry, but do you *really* think Jason picked Zhenya up at the airport because it was an opportunity to "become friends" with a "Russian star"?

Whatever you think of his skating, Jason Brown is, by all accounts, one of the most genuine and friendly people on the planet. He would probably pick *me* up at the airport, and I am neither Russian nor a star

Valid point.

Say, who is that in your profile pic? Looks like the love child of Toller Cranston and Queen Elizabeth....

 

[aftershocks]

^^ It's a photo of a young Toller Cranston @Rock2

I personally would love to see a new program to Flow Like Water, but I’m pretty sure that won’t happen.

Yep, Flow Like Water was a wonderful progam too, apparently one of your faves. Simply because men's programs have been shortened by 30 seconds this season doesn't mean Jason can't go back to a former program with tweaks that don't have to be done by Rohene. At this early stage in the season, there are still plenty of options, but a focused decision should be made rather than pushing forward with something that clearly doesn't work.

As is obvious, Jason's sp works beautifully and he landed one of the best 3-axels he's ever performed in his AC sp debut. He's obviously comfortable with his sp and he performs it well. IMO, the fp music does not work which makes it more difficult for Jason to perform that segment well, particularly with also facing the pressure of putting in a quad. Let's see what happens going forward. Even should Jason be able to land his jumps in this S&G medley fp, I don't see the program ever having conviction and impact. The music sits there aimlessly, as Jason goes through the motions wearing an unappealing costume.

I'm also not a fan of this free program. I don't mind the music per se, but the combination of pieces just doesn't feel like a cohesive program...

That's obvious too. The music transitions toward the end, as I said earlier, with a sudden uptempo beat that's quite different from the opening cuts. But the uptempo happens too late, at the tail end with no connection to what came before. I would term it muddled and lacking in cohesiveness, added to the choreo not fitting with the music. Plus there's no impact and no discernible motivation or purposeful intent.

 

[misskarne]

About Orser´s support team and Brown picking up Medvedeva (and her mother) from the airport, I´m sure that happened because Brown wanted to do it... What a great opportunity for him to become friends with a Russian star!

No. Just no.

 

[aftershocks]

Jason Brown is friendly to everyone. He gives huge and loving hugs to fans he's never met before. He spends time signing autographs for as many fans as he possibly can. At SA 2016, I witnessed officials and other skaters laughingly yet seriously having to call for Jason to stop signing autographs for fans at rinkside, and leave the ice (in order to get to a press conference). Jason is a wonderful person and a great skater.

 

[Tavi]

^^ It's a photo of a young Toller Cranston @Rock2



Yep, Flow Like Water was a wonderful progam too, apparently one of your faves. Simply because men's programs have been shortened by 30 seconds this season doesn't mean Jason can't go back to a former program with tweaks that don't have to be done by Rohene. At this early stage in the season, there are still plenty of options, but a focused decision should be made rather than pushing forward with something that clearly doesn't work.

As is obvious, Jason's sp works beautifully and he landed one of the best 3-axels he's ever performed in his AC sp debut. He's obviously comfortable with his sp and he performs it well. IMO, the fp music does not work which makes it more difficult for Jason to perform that segment well, particularly with also facing the pressure of putting in a quad. Let's see what happens going forward. Even should Jason be able to land his jumps in this S&G medley fp, I don't see the program ever having conviction and impact. The music sits there aimlessly, as Jason goes through the motions wearing an unappealing costume.



That's obvious too. The music transitions toward the end, as I said earlier, with a sudden uptempo beat that's quite different from the opening cuts. But the uptempo happens too late, at the tail end with no connection to what came before. I would term it muddled and lacking in cohesiveness, added to the choreo not fitting with the music. Plus there's no impact and no discernible motivation or purposeful intent.

I agree with you that the free program doesn’t work in its current iteration and that it may never work. I also agree that early season is a good time to make changes. I don’t personally like the music choice. But based on how my feelings toward some of his other programs have changed, I’m willing to give it a bit more of a chance.

As to going back to old programs, losing 30 seconds is not a small matter. Nor is the fact that since 2011 or whenever he did Flow Like Water, his body has changed enormously, he’s in different boots, requirements for level 4 spins and footwork have changed, and he now does 3As rather than 2As. There’s also the fact that most choreographers won’t work on a program made by someone else.

Most of us don’t forget how to swim or ride a bike. But speaking from experience, that’s not necessarily true of all complex physical tasks, especially when your body changes in the interim. Add to that the fact that they’re working on changing his jump technique so that he rotates sooner - not a small matter - and I’m not sure that there’s even a point in going back to a years’ old program and relying on muscle memory.

I love the music for Flow Like Water. I love Rohene’s choreography. But it would need more than a few tweaks to work now, and I don’t see Jason going back to a program that old. Maybe a new program, someday. JMO.

 

[MacMadame]

I'm sorry, but do you *really* think Jason picked Zhenya up at the airport because it was an opportunity to "become friends" with a "Russian star"?

I think she meant to say "What a great opportunity for Med to meet a North American star."

 

[WildRose]

I think she meant to say "What a great opportunity for Med to meet a North American star."

Jason is not a star in Canada.

 

[aftershocks]

Nor is the fact that since 2011 or whenever he did Flow Like Water, his body has changed enormously ... I love the music for Flow Like Water. I love Rohene’s choreography. But it would need more than a few tweaks to work now, and I don’t see Jason going back to a program that old.

Sure, but you are the one who originated the suggested return to Flow Like Water, not me. Indeed, it was a lovely program for the the younger Jason. As much as I too liked it, I purposely did not include Flow Like Water in my suggestions of former programs Jason might consider tapping. I had only named The Scent of Love from The Piano, and Liebestraume as possibilities. However, I agree that returning to a previous program is more problematic (albeit not impossible) than simply getting a new one. I've also made a number of music suggestions in this thread too, instead of just making critical comments.

At this point, there is time enough for Jason to have options to make any number of choices to fix the current 'going nowhere' fp. Unlike you, I personally see no reason to try and give what I don't see ever working, a chance. Unlike you, I never disagreed with any of Jason's music or programs before this obviously unsuitable and 'not working' S&G medley.

ITA that most choreographers do not typically work on a program created by someone else. That doesn't have to be what happens going forward either. Again, if something is not working, I would hope everyone who cares about Jason would do their utmost to offer support and encouragement to find solutions. As I said before, figure skating is not rocket science.

Jason is not a star in Canada.

Uh, ya don't say eh?

FYI, Jason Brown is most definitely a star in the world of figure skating, if not particularly in Canada.

 

[WildRose]

Uh, ya don't say eh?

FYI, Jason Brown is most definitely a star in the world of figure skating, if not particularly in Canada. [/QUOTE]

I was responding to a post that said he was a star in North America. North America also includes Canada - he’s not a star here. I know he is in the US and elsewhere internationally. I don’t think he’s ever done any shows or tours in Canada either.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ You might want to fix the opening quotes to properly identify my quote to which you are responding.

Whatever regarding your specific insistence upon Jason's 'stardom' elsewhere and lack thereof in Canada. Obviously, Jason is less intimately known in Canada, which does not mean he isn't as much a star of figure skating as other well known star fs personalities who didn't previously train in Canada, but now do.

Kurt Browning and Brian Orser may not have been as well known in their youth by U.S. fans as they were intimately known by Canadian fans, which made them no less stars of figure skating internationally. Orser and Browning were always respected and loved as star performers by numerous U.S. fans of their skating, even during a time of less fs accessibility due to no Internet/ social media.

Sure Jason is not a Canadian fs star, but he is a fs star who currently trains in Canada. U.S. fans knew Patrick Chan was a rising star in the sport when he began training in the U.S. I don't recall anyone particularly feeling the need to weirdly specify that Patrick was not somehow seen as a 'star' in the U.S. We knew he did not represent the U.S., but that didn't diminish his 'star' status.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason definitely isn't a "star" as far as celebrity, but he is well-known and well-regarded by the Canadian skating community, hence being invited to Skate Canada for the second year in the row. Carol Lane (whatever you think of her commentary otherwise) always spoke well of Jason's skating quality when I heard her commentary on his programs and Ted Barton and Debbi Wilkes were so eager to sing his praises during their commentary of ACI, calling him a "skater's skater."

It's also worth listening to Tracy Wilson's commentary of Jason from WAY back in the day, at 2013 Junior Worlds,. The video disappeared from YouTube, but it's clear that Tracy was drawn to his skating even back then.

All that said it is true that being Zhenya's TCC BFF has probably help raise Jason's profile among Russian figure skating fans. I see a lot more Russians commenting on his social media posts these days. But I doubt that is the reason he decided to pick her up from the airport.

 

[WildRose]

Jason definitely isn't a "star" as far as celebrity, but he is well-known and well-regarded by the Canadian skating community, hence being invited to Skate Canada for the second year in the row. Carol Lane (whatever you think of her commentary otherwise) always spoke well of Jason's skating quality when I heard her commentary on her programs and Ted Barton and Debbi Wilkes were so eager to sing his praises during their commentary of ACI, calling him a "skater's skater."

All that said it is true that being Zhenya's TCC BFF has probably help raise Jason's profile among Russian figure skating fans. I see a lot more Russians commenting on his social media posts these days. But I doubt that is the reason he decided to pick her up from the airport.

Thank you for saying this much better than I did. And my apologies for missed quotes etc - I should know better than to try and do this on my phone.

 

[MacMadame]

Way to kill a joke, people.

 

[Tavi]

Sure, but you are the one who originated the suggested return to Flow Like Water, not me. Indeed, it was a lovely program for the the younger Jason. As much as I too liked it, I purposely did not include Flow Like Water in my suggestions of former programs Jason might consider tapping. I had only named The Scent of Love from The Piano, and Liebestraume as possibilities. However, I agree that returning to a previous program is more problematic (albeit not impossible) than simply getting a new one. I've also made a number of music suggestions in this thread too, instead of just making critical comments.

At this point, there is time enough for Jason to have options to make any number of choices to fix the current 'going nowhere' fp. Unlike you, I personally see no reason to try and give what I don't see ever working, a chance. Unlike you, I never disagreed with any of Jason's music or programs before this obviously unsuitable and 'not working' S&G medley.

ITA that most choreographers do not typically work on a program created by someone else. That doesn't have to be what happens going forward either. Again, if something is not working, I would hope everyone who cares about Jason would do their utmost to offer support and encouragement to find solutions. As I said before, figure skating is not rocket science.

As to the program, I said, “I personally would love to see a new program to Flow Like Water, but I’m pretty sure that won’t happen.”

As to making critical comments and offering support, please don’t make assumptions about me.

As to the rest, all I can say is that it sounds like you’ve never put on a skate in your life. I have.

That’s really all I have to say.

 

[Tinami Amori]

All that said it is true that being Zhenya's TCC BFF has probably help raise Jason's profile among Russian figure skating fans. I see a lot more Russians commenting on his social media posts these days.

He got more Russian fans after the got a hair cut and is wearing clean clothes, at least one fan, me...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnZ1hQQBodS/?hl=en&taken-by=jasonbskates

 

[aftershocks]

As to the program, I said, “I personally would love to see a new program to Flow Like Water, but I’m pretty sure that won’t happen.”

As to making critical comments and offering support, please don’t make assumptions about me.

As to the rest, all I can say is that it sounds like you’ve never put on a skate in your life. I have.

That’s really all I have to say.

Good for you. Yeah, I actually have put on skates before and taken skating lessons, but most definitely, assuredly, and obviously I am not as experienced a skater as you apparently. Whatever superior knowledge you seem to feel that provides to you as a fan of Jason's skating, roll wid it.

And fyi, I was referencing my very own 'critical comments' about Jason's fp. I was not referencing your comments with those words, nor was 'critical comments' meant in any way to imply anything about your observations, which is what you seem to think. In fact, I'm simply responding conversationally to your responses to my posts, not trying to argue with you. At the risk of being repetitive, nope none of this is rocket science.

ETA: Also, my reference to providing 'support and encouragement' was mostly intended to reference those closest to Jason, i.e., his coaching team and anyone else close who cares about him and who might provide mentoring advice. I was not chiefly referring to fans in that instance.

 

[aftershocks]

He got more Russian fans after the got a hair cut

Some kind of prerequisite for acquiring Russian fans, I suppose?!

God deliver us all from bad hair days... Having those homegrown hard to please Russian fans is def a must!

 

[Fiero425]

I'm also not a fan of this free program. I don't mind the music per se, but the combination of pieces just doesn't feel like a cohesive program. The short program is great though!

Probably been posted, but came across JB's SP from "Autumn Classic Int'l" last month:

- - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z894EHA1W-s - -

 

[DreamSkates]

Just watched his Grand Prix competition - as Orser, sitting next to him in K & C, said, "baby steps". Some of his jumps looked great, especially the 3A combo in his FP. I don't like the music in the first half but 2nd half the energy picks up. Good for him to be going in a new directions. Everything may not "fit" while the team is figuring everything out and he is adapting and learning.
I wish him the best and hope he lands everything in his next competition, and takes more steps forward and gains more confidence. And eventually, a quad.

 

[Fiero425]

Just watched his Grand Prix competition - as Orser, sitting next to him in K & C, said, "baby steps". Some of his jumps looked great, especially the 3A combo in his FP. I don't like the music in the first half but 2nd half the energy picks up. Good for him to be going in a new directions. Everything may not "fit" while the team is figuring everything out and he is adapting and learning.
I wish him the best and hope he lands everything in his next competition, and takes more steps forward and gains more confidence. And eventually, a quad.

I normally like long hair; prefer Brown's new haircut! He was probably paying too much attn. to his BUN!

 

[Cachoo]

Just watched his Grand Prix competition - as Orser, sitting next to him in K & C, said, "baby steps". Some of his jumps looked great, especially the 3A combo in his FP. I don't like the music in the first half but 2nd half the energy picks up. Good for him to be going in a new directions. Everything may not "fit" while the team is figuring everything out and he is adapting and learning.
I wish him the best and hope he lands everything in his next competition, and takes more steps forward and gains more confidence. And eventually, a quad.

Baby steps as Orser said---I think we should be revisiting Jason and the move a couple of years from now after he has gotten used to his new team and, more importantly, had a chance to rework his technique. That must take time and if he learns more slowly then he'll need more time. Here is a question though: With his other skating skills wouldn't he still be in say---the top twelve---if he never attempted another quad but performed cleaned programs? I'm not talking about what Jason wants with that question. I love watching his skating and I would be happen to see him perform even if he finished last. I've seen competitions when I preferred him or Adam artistically even when they weren't landing quads. I hate to see him be crushed by the quad when there is so much more to see when it comes to Jason's skills and artistry.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Realistically, you have to wonder what Jason's and Team Orser's long-term goals are. Without an actual quad attempt of any sort at Skate Canada, it seems even his moneymaker PCS is levelling out under the revised IJS.

I just don't see a world medal, let alone a world team spot, happening now.

 

[overedge]

Baby steps as Orser said---I think we should be revisiting Jason and the move a couple of years from now after he has gotten used to his new team and, more importantly, had a chance to rework his technique.

Realistically, though, does Jason have the luxury of a couple of years to make those adjustments? I don't mean that he's going to physically fall apart or anything [knocks wood], but he's been competing internationally since 2013, and there are newer skaters coming up in the US and internationally who are improving very quickly. I would love to see him make huge improvements, but I also feel that in some ways he has to step it up fast, because the rest of the world is catching up.

 

[Cachoo]

Realistically, though, does Jason have the luxury of a couple of years to make those adjustments? I don't mean that he's going to physically fall apart or anything [knocks wood], but he's been competing internationally since 2013, and there are newer skaters coming up in the US and internationally who are improving very quickly. I would love to see him make huge improvements, but I also feel that in some ways he has to step it up fast, because the rest of the world is catching up.

I guess I am assuming he doesn't get a quad. Will he be on a World's podium? Not unless there is a major splat fest in the competition. But his artistry is beautiful and that component score could keep him in the top twelve. Maybe it isn't always about the gold but competing well and being a productive member of the team. I guess time will tell.