UPDATED: Guilty verdict in Bill Cosby Case (threads merged)

[Tinami Amori]

If we want things to change and achieve true equality we need to stop pointing at laws that tell us how things should be like for everyone in theory and instead look at reality and face and accept that reality is still a far cry from what it should be.

The laws prohibit others to steal your car, but the cars get stolen.

If you car is stolen, you can call the police to find it, pull out your gun and shoot the intruder, or install a security system in your garage with monitoring device to make your car more secure. In other words your options are, when law against you is broken is: to involved the law, or to fight, or to take extra measures of precaution.

Same goes for women, when the laws against them are broken. If you stand on the stage and yell "stealing cars is bad! we must do something about it" it will not solve the problem.

 

[ballettmaus]

The laws prohibit others to steal your car, but the cars get stolen.

If you car is stolen, you can call the police to find it, pull out your gun and shoot the intruder, or install a security system in your garage with monitoring device to make your car more secure. In other words your options are, when law against you is broken is: to involved the law, or to fight, or to take extra measures of precaution.

Same goes for women, when the laws against them are broken. If you stand on the stage and yell "stealing cars is bad! we must do something about it" it will not solve the problem.

Stealing a car is a fairly simple and straight-forward matter. Suing someone because you're paid too little is not. You have to have the time, you have to be able to afford it and you have to prove that you are paid less simply because you're a woman. No employer is going to admit that, most will likely come up with some reason that'll justify the pay-gap. If you can't prove that they're lying you can't prove that it's gender discrimination even if it is.

 

[Twilight1]

Here is a great article that articulates my points better...

https://www.vox.com/2017/9/8/16268362/gender-wage-gap-explained

 

[ballettmaus]

Here is a great article that articulates my points better...

https://www.vox.com/2017/9/8/16268362/gender-wage-gap-explained

Tinami argued that the law says men and women are equal under the law. That is correct, they are. But men and women are not equal in reality. They are not equal when a man is paid more for equal work and they are not equal when a man has different job opportunities simply because he is a man. So, the article actually underscores the point that reality is quite different from the theory the laws create.

It's not a woman's fault that she has to bear the children and she should not be punished for it. But because she is a woman she is not given equal opportunities. And because she is a woman, she is forced to choose between her career and a family. That isn't equality either because a man is not forced to choose. Even if the men were to stay home and take care of the baby or the man and woman share the caretaking, the woman does have to have the baby first. She does not have a choice in that matter. She can only choose to not have a baby.

And even then, the article states that even women who do not have children earn less than men.

 

[Twilight1]

The article indicates that "childrearing and time off" impacts work. So a MAN could take a leave for say compassionate leave and have the same impact on his income. So the whining on just being a woman is cumbersome and inaccurate and does not look at the IMPACT of lost work on the wage gap.

Flexible hours at work would resolve the issue. Not suddenly growing a penis.

 

[puglover]

So now that the Cosbys have come out, guns blazing, blaming the prosecutor and equating Cosby's situation with blatant, egregious comparisons where race was clearly the issue - I wonder how public opinion in the U.S. stands with them. Is there wide spread sympathy for him? How his wife can say the things she does when, as I understand it, he has admitted to giving young women sedatives to have sex with them, I just don't get. Loyalty is one thing - but come on!!

 

[Tinami Amori]

Tinami argued that the law says men and women are equal under the law. That is correct, they are. But men and women are not equal in reality. They are not equal when a man is paid more for equal work and they are not equal when a man has different job opportunities simply because he is a man.

If there are laws, women need to use them.

It's not a woman's fault that she has to bear the children and she should not be punished for it. But because she is a woman she is not given equal opportunities. And because she is a woman, she is forced to choose between her career and a family.

Woman does not have to bear children. It is a choice.
No laws prevent a woman from choosing between career and a family. It is a choice.

That isn't equality either because a man is not forced to choose.

If a woman chooses a responsible partner to have a child with, both partners have to choose.

You are forgetting one aspect. Today a family is not only made of "man and woman", a family can be same sex. When a family decides to have a child, each partner should carefully consider if the other partner is willing to equally share responsibilities and time.

Women, men, etc... are responsible to make a good choice of partner to be a parent to their baby. If one partner makes a bad choice, then his/her work/career maybe negatively impacted.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Both Bill Cosby and Roman Polanski dropped from Oscar (Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences) membership, following the same treatment earlier for Harvey Weinstein:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/entertainment/bill-cosby-roman-pollanski/index.html

And Camille Hanks Cosby's take on the latest events:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/03/us/camille-cosby-statement/index.html

 

[VGThuy]

Tinami, in litigation, policy-making, activism, awareness, education, and litigation (both individual and high-impact) are seen as all necessary to ultimately fix disparities and non-enforcement laws that are made to ensure equal opportunity and equal treatment. I don't get why people cannot both sue and raise awareness about the gender wage gap at the same time? One is reactive and the other is preventative to ensure it doesn't happen as often and as widely as it does.

Actually, I do get why some cannot sue because it's very expensive to file this type of lawsuit and many times it's hard to prove as employers have gotten really smart in hiding their discrimination and courts have been slow to adapt.

 

[MacMadame]

Both Bill Cosby and Roman Polanski dropped from Oscar (Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences) membership, following the same treatment earlier for Harvey Weinstein:

So when is Woody Allen going to get thrown out?

 

[VGThuy]

So when is Woody Allen going to get thrown out?

Woody Allen is not a member of the Academy.

 

[Vagabond]

So now that the Cosbys have come out, guns blazing, blaming the prosecutor and equating Cosby's situation with blatant, egregious comparisons where race was clearly the issue - I wonder how public opinion in the U.S. stands with them.

Although the victim in this specific case is a white woman, the prosecutor and several of his other alleged victims are black women. I am not black (or woman, for that matter), but I hope that the black community comes down hard on any further attempts to play the race card here.

 

[Prancer]

Although the victim in this specific case is a white woman, the prosecutor and several of his other alleged victims are black women. I am not black (or woman, for that matter), but I hope that the black community comes down hard on any further attempts to play the race card here.

The pound cake sermon hasn't been forgotten. I don't see him getting a lot of support from anyone for any reason.

 

[VGThuy]

Although the victim in this specific case is a white woman, the prosecutor and several of his other alleged victims are black women. I am not black (or woman, for that matter), but I hope that the black community comes down hard on any further attempts to play the race card here.

That's a point that needs to be drilled into people's heads. So many of the brave victims who came out were women of color and many of them black. It's quite telling that some that are trying to argue that this is a conspiracy to bring down successful black people are participating in the historic silencing of black women.

 

[PeterG]

So now that the Cosbys have come out, guns blazing, blaming the prosecutor and equating Cosby's situation with blatant, egregious comparisons where race was clearly the issue...

Black Lies Matter.

 

[Scrufflet]

So now that the Cosbys have come out, guns blazing, blaming the prosecutor and equating Cosby's situation with blatant, egregious comparisons where race was clearly the issue - I wonder how public opinion in the U.S. stands with them. Is there wide spread sympathy for him? How his wife can say the things she does when, as I understand it, he has admitted to giving young women sedatives to have sex with them, I just don't get. Loyalty is one thing - but come on!!

I read one article where he was comparing himself to Nelson Mandela. What do you say! Gag.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Although the victim in this specific case is a white woman, the prosecutor and several of his other alleged victims are black women. I am not black (or woman, for that matter), but I hope that the black community comes down hard on any further attempts to play the race card here.

I don't see too much "race card" possibilities here.. Cosby is too obvious of "an equal opportunity abuser"..
--
I am wondering though, did Cosby honestly think "he is irresistible to women, and was giving them pills to relax them for better sex", or did he know "he is old and not that sexy, and drugging women is his only option"...

 

[berthesghost]

The fact that he admits to drugging and raping them in a blasé manner like its nothing unusual tells us that yes, he has fully convinced himself that he is doing nothing wrong. All of his testimony reads like " I never stole a thing in my life! Last Tuesday I went into a store and I really wanted gum but there was a long line at the counter, so I put the gum in my pocket and left the store. I'm no thief!" This is someone so far into believing their own bs that they don't even recognize when they are admitting wrong doing.

 

[Peaches LaTour]

Although the victim in this specific case is a white woman, the prosecutor and several of his other alleged victims are black women. I am not black (or woman, for that matter), but I hope that the black community comes down hard on any further attempts to play the race card here.

I, too, hope the black community comes down hard on Cosby's race card b.s.

Neither Cosby nor his wife were screaming "race card" when he was riding high, raking in money left & right & earning honorary degrees all over the place. They didn't view being black as an impediment in a predominantly white population to success at that time.

No, just now that all the grief he brought down upon his victims, his family & himself, suddenly he is a victim of racial discrimination?

Cosby, you pathetic piece of garbage.

 

[Japanfan]

I, too, hope the black community comes down hard on Cosby's race card b.s.

Neither Cosby nor his wife were screaming "race card" when he was riding high, raking in money left & right & earning honorary degrees all over the place. They didn't view being black as an impediment in a predominantly white population to success at that time.

No, just now that all the grief he brought down upon his victims, his family & himself, suddenly he is a victim of racial discrimination?

Cosby, you pathetic piece of garbage.

Cosby was/is a rich and powerful man who abused his position and privilege.

He's not some poor drug-addicted black teenager in the inner city who committed a break and enter or a theft to get funds for drugs.

He doesn't get to play the race card.

In fact, IMO men who rape never get to play any 'card'. Rape is not an action that a man commits because he is victim of circumstance and bad luck. It's pretty much always an abuse of power.

 

[PeterG]

Cosby was/is a rich and powerful man who abused his position and privilege.

He's not some poor drug-addicted black teenager in the inner city who committed a break and enter or a theft to get funds for drugs.

He doesn't get to play the race card.

In fact, IMO men who rape never get to play any 'card'. Rape is not an action that a man commits because he is victim of circumstance and bad luck. It's pretty much always an abuse of power.

Isn't rape considered to be an act of violence? And that pretty much everyone who acts in violent ways come from a background where violence was prevelant? In no way am I saying this is an excuse in ANY way, shape or form. But if we want violence to stop, we have to address why violence exists in some families, but not in most others. Otherwise, violence will continue. To me, that is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

 

[Japanfan]

Isn't rape considered to be an act of violence?

Obviously, but also and more so, an act of power.

And that pretty much everyone who acts in violent ways come from a background where violence was prevelant?

A lot of men who commit sexual harassment and rape do not come from violent backgrounds. There are just so many of them, and some/too many of them are powerful, successful men who come from privileged backgrounds.

I googled to see if there was evidence for this point, but didn't find any articles addressing this specific point.

I did find this article, https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/health/men-rape-sexual-assault.html. It doesn't address whether rapists have violent backgrounds, but does conclude:

Indeed, experts note one last trait shared by men who have raped: they do not believe they are the problem.

To some men, rape is seen as 'entitlement' to sex.

It's also important to keep in mind that rape is often culturally normalized. For example, it (sadly) happens as a matter of routine in refugee camps.

In some cultures women do not have the right to say no to sex with their husbands. They are obliged to perform the act on demand.

There is also the view that women tempt or lure men into sex. I'd like to assert that this view has largely been dispelled in western societies at least, but can't say it has been dispelled 100%.

I digress in making the following point, but it is somewhat relevant.

According to the Theory of the Humours, women's ovaries were cold and needed the heat of sperm to warm them up.
Convenient, wasn't it? It's just an example of beliefs about gender that seek excuses about irresponsible/bad male behaviors.

In no way am I saying this is an excuse in ANY way, shape or form. But if we want violence to stop, we have to address why violence exists in some families, but not in most others. Otherwise, violence will continue. To me, that is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

Unfortunately addressing violence is not the same as addressing rape.

Boys need to be educated young to respect women, in the home, in school, and in society at large.

But what about porn, especially violent porn? I'm not sure if any correlation between porn and rape has been found - probably not, as most men watch porn at some point in their life SFAIK, but a lot of men do not rape. Even so, watching violent porn has got to shape attitudes and behaviors towards women, at least for some men.

 

[Vagabond]

Isn't rape considered to be an act of violence?

Rape is not necessarily an act of violence. It is sexual activity in which the victim does not or cannot consent. This would include situations where the victim was drugged, drunk, threatened, or too young legally to consent.

 

[Twilight1]

Rape is still mental and emotional violence and is still an act of violence even if the physical act itself does not involve bumps and bruises.

 

[Vagabond]

Rape is still mental and emotional violence and is still an act of violence even if the physical act itself does not involve bumps and bruises.

No doubt, though I am not sure that helps prove Peter's assertion that pretty much everyone who acts in violent ways come from a background where violence was prevelant.

My eldest brother has engaged in great mental and emotional violence and did not come from a background where violence of any sort was prevalent.

 

[misskarne]

Isn't rape considered to be an act of violence? And that pretty much everyone who acts in violent ways come from a background where violence was prevelant? In no way am I saying this is an excuse in ANY way, shape or form. But if we want violence to stop, we have to address why violence exists in some families, but not in most others. Otherwise, violence will continue. To me, that is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

No. Stop. I have seen you do this before, attempt to take focus away from the real victims by spouting some bullshit about how these men must be victims themselves. You are trying to excuse their behaviour and there is no excuse.

 

[PeterG]

I googled to see if there was evidence for this point, but didn't find any articles addressing this specific point.

It's telling that it's not easy to find studies that show whether those who have raped come from a violent background or not. Having this information is much more valuable to society than something such as space exploration.

My eldest brother has engaged in great mental and emotional violence and did not come from a background where violence of any sort was prevalent.

Are these his words (or yours)? The family next door to us would say that there was no violence in their family, but I spoke to the youngest child in the family a few years ago and he told me that he was raped at five years of age by a neighbour and never told anyone in his family. He has acted out in violent ways on occasion as an adult. I expect his sisters have told people that he did not grow up in an environment of violence.

 

[PeterG]

No. Stop. I have seen you do this before, attempt to take focus away from the real victims by spouting some bullshit about how these men must be victims themselves. You are trying to excuse their behaviour and there is no excuse.

No. Wrong. I want violence to stop. We have to figure out why it continues to happen. I have not taken focus away from victims. I have not spouted bullshit, I have asked questions. Asked questions, not made statements. You quoted my post, which said:

Isn't rape considered to be an act of violence? And that pretty much everyone who acts in violent ways come from a background where violence was prevelant? In no way am I saying this is an excuse in ANY way, shape or form. But if we want violence to stop, we have to address why violence exists in some families, but not in most others. Otherwise, violence will continue. To me, that is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

 

[misskarne]

No. Wrong. I want violence to stop. We have to figure out why it continues to happen. I have not taken focus away from victims. I have not spouted bullshit, I have asked questions. Asked questions, not made statements. You quoted my post, which said:

You continue to make unfounded claims that they "must" have come from a history of violence, as if there was no possible other explanation. You seem in a hurry and adamant that it HAS to be because they were victims. That is insulting and demeaning to the victims of rape.

 

[Twilight1]

People engage in behaviours that we still have no way of truly understanding... Saying someone was a victim themselves of sexual violence which resulted in them customizing another is not always true.

An interesting piece of news kind of connected to this is there is some evidence of a connection to regular pornography and sexual violence in youth.