ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

[Bellanca]

Hmmm, I've never noticed before that Adam has a bubble-butt. However, I have noticed Chen's quads ... which is why he is the World Champion...

 

[Tinami Amori]

Hmmm, I've never noticed before that Adam has a bubble-butt. However, I have noticed Chen's quads ... which is why he is the World Champion...

Chen, not only managed athletic superiority, but academic and artistic as well, and it all relates.

Free style skating has element called "jump".
The element "jump" is evaluated on rotations.
The more rotations, the higher the value.
The natural progression of any competition is to do better than the rest, and in this case (jump) is to do more rotations (and do them well).
To hinder that one skater who can do many different jumps with many rotations, for sake of others who can't do them, or as many, is hindering the sport, and undermining competition.

Pretty much this ideology: hinder the powerful, empower the hindered. Socialism.

 

[gkelly]

I think the question is whether the sport should reward excellent jumping with good skating over excellent skating with good jumping. Is it primarily a jumping contest or a skating contest?

And then there is also performance quality to take into account.

Obviously any skater who can excel at all of the above will be able to win. But if it comes down to choices between different skaters with different strengths, whether for gold or for bronze or for 10th or 24th place, what should be worth the most?

 

[skateboy]

I also think -2 for "ugly" arm positions is a bit much. And, again, what is "ugly".

Maria Sotskova's tanos.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I think the question is whether the sport should reward excellent jumping with good skating over excellent skating with good jumping. Is it primarily a jumping contest or a skating contest?

That is correct, there should be balance. But! what you're saying is healthy approach: figure skating is both, athletics and artistry. Let's evaluate if (in this case) artistry is rewarded sufficiently.

That's is not what Adam said. He said "let's hinder one excellent skater because he can do jumps that others can't do".

There is a difference between rewarding ALL aspects of skating, vs. "bringing someone down, so that many others can benefit". It's "rewarding excellence" vs. "punishing excellence".

 

[MacMadame]

We also need to watch for the splat-fest. Even though more men are now landing quads, quads have made competitions messier and have prevented some of the best skaters we have from getting on podiums.

This is not unique to quads. Whenever skaters are pushing the envelope with jumps, we get this. (And sometimes even when they aren't.)

In the end, it's a sport and the sport cannot progress if people don't push the envelope even if that means that sometimes programs get messy.

Maria Sotskova's tanos.

I bet someone likes them.

 

[gkelly]

Personally, I would like to see rewards for pushing the envelope in other kinds of jump difficulty besides number of rotations in the air.

And also for high difficulty and quality in on-ice technical skills, combinations of different kinds of skills, use of technical skills to serve artistic purposes, etc.

Some of this has been addressed by various rule changes over the years. Other specifics do not appear to have been considered at all.

 

[Rock2]

The goal of skating is not to have clean programs. Or even mostly clean. If you want perfection, you're more about the artistry than the sporting aspect. That's fine, but I think your interests would best be served at the ballet or opera (or show skating) because your interest in skating is more for art form.

But alas skating is a sport first. At least if the goal is to continue in the Olympics.

Watch golf. How many hit it into the water or shank it into the trees? Or the sand traps they are trying to avoid. Tons. Constantly. How many gymnasts miss elements, fall off the balance beam or parallel bars? Tons. When this happens we slap our leg and go awwwwww, and then continue on watching, enveloped n the drama (for those who are fans). We don't say these athletes are trying stuff they can't do perfectly all the time so we need to change the rules. So I don't wish this for skating.

What I am in favor of is debating appropriate penalties for missing elements so we don't reward excessive risk taking that doesn't pay off.

 

[VGThuy]

I think you bring up some good points, and I agree with you that when athletes are pushing boundaries we have to let go of the concept of everyone being able to perform clean programs at a competition. I also like that you bring up changing the system so that mistakes aren’t overly rewarded by having penalties that don’t better accurately reflect how that missed element should be awarded.

However, since you’re talking about sports and sport fans’ expectations in general, even general sports fans don’t want to see a competition where everybody is making mistakes left and right and nobody is capable of skating well. At the Olympics, so many casual watchers kept commenting on the team even men’s event SP and joked that the skaters didn’t seem to know how to skate. Even though they may not be hardcore skating fans, they expected cleanish programs from skaters and not implosions. I would have hated to see the reaction from general audiences if the Men’s event at the Olympics was like the Men’s LP at Worlds.

Also, I don’t think you need to explain to skating fans what sport is and that they should watch ballet or whatever to get art. So many fans love figure skating because of the art and performance mixed with the jumps and skills. They are fans of the sport for a reason and I don’t think it’s fair to tell them their interests don’t belong in this sport.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I bet someone likes them.

Maria Sotskova will hate them as well, if she wasn’t doing them. May be she will give an interview after her retirement to state how she hated those tanos, but was necessity of the time, etc.

 

[Willin]

This is not unique to quads. Whenever skaters are pushing the envelope with jumps, we get this. (And sometimes even when they aren't.)

In the end, it's a sport and the sport cannot progress if people don't push the envelope even if that means that sometimes programs get messy.

I don't mind some falls, but I also think we've had plenty of years for quads to progress that we shouldn't be having splatfests for quads. Usually the messy stage of new difficulty lasts one Olympic cycle, not two.

I think the biggest thing is that they are far too rewarded. Falls + UR on some quads still gets more points than the triple of that jump. We want those skaters who can do quads to do them, but for skaters who tend to fall on quads but need one to get on a podium, I don't want them to be doing quads for the sake of getting the points if they're going to fall on nearly every one.

Personally, I would like to see rewards for pushing the envelope in other kinds of jump difficulty besides number of rotations in the air.

And also for high difficulty and quality in on-ice technical skills, combinations of different kinds of skills, use of technical skills to serve artistic purposes, etc.

Some of this has been addressed by various rule changes over the years. Other specifics do not appear to have been considered at all.

I love this idea. I think it would be interesting to see something like a Tano or Rippon added to the BV.
In synchro there's some elements like the NHE were you have the BV of the actual element (ie. NHE4) and then a feature (ie. +s4). The features are necessary, but the BV gets increased based on that feature. For example, NHE4+s4 = 5.50 BV; NHE4+s3 = 5.00 BV; NHE3+s4 = 5.00 BV; NHE3+s3 = 4.50BV.

I think it would be cool to see something like that if they could get the base values right. Maybe a tuck leg position could be +.50 on the BV or something? Or perhaps Tanos/Rippons could be +.25? I don't even know if it's physically possible, but tuck loops look cool, so I think seeing tuck 2Lo's or tuck 3Lo's would be cool.

Or perhaps there could be a bonus for doing jumps in both directions. In ISI some of the top levels require at least one jump to be in the opposite direction (I heard FS10 requires an opposite-axel). I know at least Gracie was able to land an opposite 2A, but I'd assume other skaters have played around with it.

 

[Marco]

Nathan Chen is the first person to have landed 5 different types of quads in competition (tho not in the same competition).

 

[gkelly]

I think it would be cool to see something like that if they could get the base values right. Maybe a tuck leg position could be +.50 on the BV or something? Or perhaps Tanos/Rippons could be +.25? I don't even know if it's physically possible, but tuck loops look cool, so I think seeing tuck 2Lo's or tuck 3Lo's would be cool.

Or perhaps there could be a bonus for doing jumps in both directions.

How the various kinds of extra difficulty would be rewarded could be up for discussion: "features" called by tech panel that automatically add to the base value, or rewards in GOE, or changes to the way combinations and sequences are scored, or new kinds of jump elements in the Scale of Values, etc. Different kinds of extra difficulty might require different kinds of incentives/rewards.

I'm thinking

*adding double and triple walley and inside axel to the Scale of Values (singles could remain unlisted transitions)

*rewards for combinations with high-value jumps at the end (e.g., double-quad or triple-quad combos, or double-triple at a somewhat lower level; double jump landing on back inside edge of "wrong" foot directly into triple salchow or flip, etc.)

*rewards for combinations or sequences with jumps in both directions

*rewards (or at least losing the sequence penalty) for sequences two (or three?) jumps connected with a single choreographed turn or edge change between jumps after establishing the landing of the first, with no change of foot -- this would allow for axels at the ends of sequences with a more difficult transition than simple step forward or tap-toe/mazurka in between; it would also allow for some more creative options with reverse-direction jumps

*rewards for difficult air positions in single and maybe double jumps that aren't possible in triples and quads (these are currently allowed in Choreographic Sequences, but there's no official way to reward the difficulty) -- maybe a leveled low-revolution jump sequence as another kind of element with specific rewards for specific kinds of difficulty

*explicit rewards for multirevolution jumps that land in a sustained spin or that takeoff from a spin exit without touching the other foot down

etc.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Maria Sotskova's tanos.

Yes. Her arm looks like a big ole flappy noodle. However, ugly or not (this is subjective, yes) the difficulty is still present.

I think it is going to take me all summer to learn and digest all these changes. Every time I think I have something figured out, one of you counteracts with an excellent point.

The proposals in Ice Dance......OMG. Mindboggling.

 

[Rock2]

However, since you’re talking about sports and sport fans’ expectations in general, even general sports fans don’t want to see a competition where everybody is making mistakes left and right and nobody is capable of skating well.

My hypothesis is that this complaint is almost unique to skating, because people watch it more as an art form than a sport.

Do fans walk away from gymnastics or golf complaining they didn't enjoy it because athletes were making mistakes and should focus on elements or shots they are confident they can do with more regularity? My guess is no. But feel free to correct me. I myself don't hear that about other sports.

So fans just need to be self aware about the lense through which they watch skating vs how they watch other sports. Mistakes are a natural part of sport advancement.

We might then say why doesn't skating not adjust to the fans to make them enjoy it better? My answer is that most amateur sports only do so much to accommodate fans. Their needs are secondary and it's the integrity of the sport that needs to and continues to be the priority. Professional sports are more likely to prioritize the fans. Sometimes we lose sight of this dynamic, thinking the fans of skating are more important than we are. It's a strange situation since figure skating has a bigger built in audience than many other (winter) sports.

 

[wickedwitch]

It's not mistakes that are a problem. It's when the program mistake after mistake after mistake. That goes for other sports besides skating. If the players on may favorite team make a few isolated mistakes, I can continue watching, but if it's one of those games where they aren't doing anything right, I'll often turn it off.

Mens skating has too often turned into a complete mess, making it probably my least favorite disipline currently. There are mistakes in other disiplines, but they aren't as frequent.

 

[VGThuy]

My hypothesis is that this complaint is almost unique to skating, because people watch it more as an art form than a sport.

Do fans walk away from gymnastics or golf complaining they didn't enjoy it because athletes were making mistakes and should focus on elements or shots they are confident they can do with more regularity? My guess is no. But feel free to correct me. I myself don't hear that about other sports.

So fans just need to be self aware about the lense through which they watch skating vs how they watch other sports. Mistakes are a natural part of sport advancement.

We might then say why doesn't skating not adjust to the fans to make them enjoy it better? My answer is that most amateur sports only do so much to accommodate fans. Their needs are secondary and it's the integrity of the sport that needs to and continues to be the priority. Professional sports are more likely to prioritize the fans. Sometimes we lose sight of this dynamic, thinking the fans of skating are more important than we are. It's a strange situation since figure skating has a bigger built in audience than many other (winter) sports.

Gymnastics fans complain all the time about gymnasts at the elite level doing skills they aren't close to being able to perform and messy competitions. A gymnast winning the all-around with a fall is something they do not want and happens rarely. If anything, they think the current system is disgusting and want it to go back to being about properly rewarding execution and quality as well as difficulty. They also want to bring artistry back. The fanfare of gymnastics has pretty much died outside of the Olympics and college gymnastics (and that was before the scandal). A lot of the recent buzz from gymnastics at the Olympics is thanks to a name like Simone Biles, and the fact that the U.S. was dominating the field and international competition not providing much in the way the close competition. Also, in gymnastics when Vanessa Ferrari (and Paul Hamm in 2004) won the world all-around title in 2006 with a fall, it was so unprecedented that there was an incredible amount of controversy about that. Luckily, it's very rare that that happens.

Gymnastics fans I speak to about figure skating don't understand skating that much and think it's crazy how normalized falls are in our sport and I know other sports fans think it's crazy that jumps that are landed with falls are still given credit and compare it to basketball where an "easy" two pointer shot will be worth more than an impressive, pretty looking three pointer attempt that doesn't make it inside the basket which is worth 0 points because its a failed shot. They think figure skating should have that approach. Of course we know what happens if we change IJS where quads and triples will get 0 points for a fall, and we know the reason why we award points for attempts.

 

[skateboy]

Obviously any skater who can excel at all of the above will be able to win. But if it comes down to choices between different skaters with different strengths, whether for gold or for bronze or for 10th or 24th place, what should be worth the most?

It's controversial, of course. My personal opinion is that when it comes to competition, and because FS needs to be taken seriously as Olympic sport, IF we have to make a choice of athlete vs. artist, then the superior athlete should be given the nod.

 

[gkelly]

It's controversial, of course. My personal opinion is that when it comes to competition, and because FS needs to be taken seriously as Olympic sport, IF we have to make a choice of athlete vs. artist, then the superior athlete should be given the nod.

How about the superior technician?

 

[Bellanca]

The goal of skating is not to have clean programs. Or even mostly clean. If you want perfection, you're more about the artistry than the sporting aspect. That's fine, but I think your interests would best be served at the ballet or opera (or show skating) because your interest in skating is more for art form.

But alas skating is a sport first. At least if the goal is to continue in the Olympics.

Watch golf. How many hit it into the water or shank it into the trees? Or the sand traps they are trying to avoid. Tons. Constantly. How many gymnasts miss elements, fall off the balance beam or parallel bars? Tons. When this happens we slap our leg and go awwwwww, and then continue on watching, enveloped n the drama (for those who are fans). We don't say these athletes are trying stuff they can't do perfectly all the time so we need to change the rules. So I don't wish this for skating.

What I am in favor of is debating appropriate penalties for missing elements so we don't reward excessive risk taking that doesn't pay off.

Well said! Great post!

 

[skateboy]

How about the superior technician?

Included, as long as the content meets the standard of the discipline.

 

[Bellanca]

It's controversial, of course. My personal opinion is that when it comes to competition, and because FS needs to be taken seriously as Olympic sport, IF we have to make a choice of athlete vs. artist, then the superior athlete should be given the nod.

ITA. Another great post!

 

[Dobre]

It's controversial, of course. My personal opinion is that when it comes to competition, and because FS needs to be taken seriously as Olympic sport, IF we have to make a choice of athlete vs. artist, then the superior athlete should be given the nod.

I find this so strange since I grew up frequently reading that figure skating prided itself on not allowing the technical elements to supersede the artistic side of the sport. It was cited as the reason the second mark outweighed the first in a tie-breaker during the LP. And I always felt that it was an integral part of what defined figure skating as unique among the rest of the Olympic pantheon.

 

[MAXSwagg]

@Tinami Amori Well, as a competitive skater who finished in the top 10 at the Olympics with no quad, I'd say Adam's doing just fine "waving around and sticking out his bubble-butt." He also has the 7th best average score this year - ahead of many who can do quads (Patrick Chan, Max Aaron, Vincent Zhou, Dmitri Aliev, Sergei Voronov, Alexei Bychenko, Keegan Messing) and with an average only 5 points lower than Kolyada (2 quads in SP, 3 quads in FS) and 6 points lower than Jin (2 quads in SP, 4 quads in FS). And calling him an "as..."? Umm, yeah, okay... Whatever you want to think about him...
Adam's been around the block. He knows how things are changing and that they weren't changing in his favor. As one of the men's competitors who's been around the longest, I think he's in a unique position to comment on the direction of men's figure skating right now.

I do think there needs to be a reform to the quad. I get what he's saying about not everyone being able to do 6 quads. Literally only one skater has done that, and if only one skater remains capable of that, competitions will get less and less interesting. Yes, it is about higher-better-faster-stronger, but parity is good for viewership. If only one man can do 6 quads but 4-5 more skaters can do 3 or 4 quads, maybe we should try to keep quads down to 3 or 4 per program to allow for more parity.
We also need to watch for the splat-fest. Even though more men are now landing quads, quads have made competitions messier and have prevented some of the best skaters we have from getting on podiums. Skating needs to decide if it wants to reward the best jumper or the best all-around skater (jumps, spins, footwork, presentation, etc.).
My bigger concern with quads is the health of skaters. Yes, they're exciting, but do we really want all these injuries to keep on coming or to see all of our favorite skaters getting surgery and chronic pain at a relatively young age from doing all those quads?

What unique position? Adam can't do quads, and most times he can't even do the difficult triples and combinations well. And adam certainly does not have the best fundamental skating skills (which includes transitions).

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

Adam Rippon and Ashley Wagner set back the moral value of USA figure skating at least 37 years! They are both liberals, socialites, awful skaters, awful ro-models, awful! We could of seen real men like Ross Minor and Timothy Dolenski but no, here is Adam and his butt and his "eye brows" and his agenda.

It is sickening! There are more real men in USA skating. . . . Grant . . . . .Jeremy from the past. But he was out-shadower with Johnny B. Weird!

I don't care if I never see Adam or Ashly in a competition again, they must be harshly spoken of for year's to come because of the terrible things they did, the power they abused, the scandals they perpretrated!

Adam is more likely to successfully "transition" into a woman than he is to have a successfull transition in his programs, mark my words.

 

[jlai]

What unique position? Adam can't do quads, and most times he can't even do the difficult triples and combinations well. And adam certainly does not have the best fundamental skating skills (which includes transitions).

Adam isn't exactly a great technical skater, yes. He did fulfill his potential, however, in that he has maxed out on most of his abilities to get his placement.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

Yes. Her arm looks like a big ole flappy noodle.

This makes me hungry for my wife's favorite crock pot stroganoff.

 

[Willin]

@MAXSwagg I don't want to feed the troll, but... Your argument is stupid. The ability to do a quad doesn't make you magically able to be some sort of all-knowing figure skating guru, and the lack of ability to do a quad doesn't make you magically an idiot about figure skating. In fact, many people who decision make in skating - even skaters who advise the ISU and USFSA - have less impressive resumes than Adam. So why shouldn't he be able to have a voice? Would you say that the entirety of most countries' skating leadership - even their ISU representatives - should leave because they couldn't do a quad?
To put it in words that might resonate with you: Should Brian Orser not be allowed to coach your beloved Hanyu or comment on quads because he never landed a quad in competition? Because Adam's landed mores clean quads in competition than Brian Orser has.

Adam's opinion should not be completely invalid because he "can't do quads" (he actually can, and there's video and score sheet evidence of it). His unique position is that he has been in the Senior ranks since before someone with 0 quads won the OGM and has continued to stay competitive when 4+ quads are required for the podium. Not many men's skaters can say the same, and none of the decision makers at the ISU can say that.

 

[jlai]

@MAXSwagg I don't want to feed the troll, but... Your argument is stupid. The ability to do a quad doesn't make you magically able to be some sort of all-knowing figure skating guru, and the lack of ability to do a quad doesn't make you magically an idiot about figure skating. In fact, many people who decision make in skating - even skaters who advise the ISU and USFSA - have less impressive resumes than Adam. So why shouldn't he be able to have a voice? Would you say that the entirety of most countries' skating leadership - even their ISU representatives - should leave because they couldn't do a quad?
To put it in words that might resonate with you: Should Brian Orser not be allowed to coach your beloved Hanyu or comment on quads because he never landed a quad in competition? Because Adam's landed mores clean quads in competition than Brian Orser has.

Adam's opinion should not be completely invalid because he "can't do quads" (he actually can, and there's video and score sheet evidence of it). His unique position is that he has been in the Senior ranks since before someone with 0 quads won the OGM and has continued to stay competitive when 4+ quads are required for the podium. Not many men's skaters can say the same, and none of the decision makers at the ISU can say that.

I think all types of skaters should have some opinions. MAXSwagg is right in that Adam wasn't great at bladework or transition either; perhaps more emphasis on that would be good, and that would be a technical change also. We do want the sport to move forward with difficulty; it doesn't have to be a quad, however.

But we don't want to write rules to penalize Nathan or Boyang either. Just give points in different types of technical difficulties?

 

[Willin]

@jlai I mean, Adam isn't the most gifted skater ever and never could be. But my point is that his skating ability is entirely irrelevant to his opinion.

I do agree that we need to value other kinds of difficulty. It's crazy that a so-so quad can get 2-4x what an excellently done difficult spin or step sequence can get in points. I think that even if the ISU wants to focus on TES, they can fix that imbalance. Of course, to justify an increase in L4 spin/steps value closer to a triple/quad jump I think the calling would need to become a lot stricter.

@gkelly Thinking about it, I'd love to see a bonus for a jump set-up that would be like the Jr/Sr MITF powerpulls. One foot pulls with a series of turn in there form corner to corner leading to a jump. The burn on those legs would make that insanely difficult. Or even requiring more difficult linking steps into a jump like a twizzle or L4 turn cluster - especially if the turns had to be called clean for the linking steps to count. I don't think fans who don't skate would appreciate the difficulty as much, but if a skater could do that into multiple jumping passes I would be so impressed.